For offsides I agree completely but for all decisions it clearly is. For offsides they have to do is check two frames instead of 1 to get it more accurate. The one where they deem the ball to be first contacted and the one just before that.
How to fix VAR “offsides”?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I don't agree they're spot on, not to the millimetre like they seem to be trying to make the calls to. It's absolutely ridiculous to be making some of these calls. If you can't tell me exactly how many millimetres off the guy is and if nobody has bothered to calculate the error margins in the system, then it has to be done purely with the Mk1 eyeball. To pretend it's some sort of scientific method like they're doing is just risible and it comes across as match fixing pure and simple.
What do you mean changing the rules for VAR? I'm proposing to not use VAR at all, but another form of technology that more or less will automate the rule as it is. The only adjustment needed is a technical detail in the rule to ensure consistency. Wouldn't need to change anything in the lower leagues, still the same game just worse refs, worse players, less money to spend on tech. Nothing out of the ordinary.
I was a big proponent of video assisted refereeing before it was introduced. Its hard to believe after a year of trialling before being introduced this is where we are.
I think its time the FA admitted its been a disaster and scrap VAR completely.
I think its time the FA admitted its been a disaster and scrap VAR completely.
Lines persons look across a moving line of people and then spot who is the last player and what colour is shirt is. That's hard enough.
You'd be constantly having to id the last defender through all the bodies and then see and calculate whether any attacker is daylight forward of him, again through all the bodies. And then it all changes. Impossible I would say.
Last man, is it attacker or defender? Millimetres or not, they did it like that for a reason.
But the lines look spot on, the angles of them anyway so its foolish to assume they aren't. Where they draw the line from on the player is a huge issue as I don't know how they determine the middle of the shoulder or armpit exactly etc..., but they can put lines that match the perspective of a football pitch easily. Honestly I think goals like the Wolves and Sheffield United one today should stand purely because of the possible inaccuracies but the offside rule needs changing anyway, particularly if they are going to implement it the way they currently are with VAR.
But they can't see the exact point the ball is contacted to make their decision so its all essentially educated guess work anyway.
Sorry, I confused you with someone wanting just the feet checked for offside and not a scoring body part. some ideas are frankly ridiculous
chips in the boots and balls is where I think we need to be for any kind of accuracy. I don’t think we’re anywhere near that though.
that’s without even getting into players having to send their boots off for chips installed
@padr81 this...
It’s definitely harder for linos with daylight rule. I’ve read as much in the past but can’t seem to find a link
So you don't agree with the rule and you don't agree with them at least trying to implement it properly.
I can see why you're not happy, anyway.
Fair enough if there are lino's who actually back that up, I'm not one to argue, I just find being a linesman an impossible job anyway and looks like its based on educated guesswork as opposed to 100% certainty because of the task at hand in calling an offside.
The current VAR offside is many multiple times more accurate than leaving the linesman to do the job on his own though. So saying it isn't accurate enough hardly works an argument for reverting to that previous set-up. So what's the better idea that actually is "accurate enough"? Even goal-line tech has a margin of error, so expecting perfection is unreasonable.
Also (and unlike some other aspects of VAR) the current offside system is something that actually will improve with better technology given it relies on the frame rates of the cameras it uses and the speed with which the 3d imaging software works. Unlike subjective decisions, say, where human error and interpretation will always be a much greater obstacle in progress.
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Not what I'm implying, I'm saying I don't like the rule because it favors ruling out goals and removing entertainment from football. The daylight rule was great for attacker. The way they are implementing it at the minute is crazy because the technology is not perfect and its still guesswork, its now just guesswork that aims to help defenders rather than attackers.
I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
But we've got tech fans not happy with the tech wanting even worse tech. And people just wanting duff goals allowed if they are nice goals.
And several other arguments.
Pukki has sent us over the edge, I think.
If we keep getting mistakes every week then yes I’d scrap it and just go back to the Lino making mistakes. What’s the point in disrupting flow of game, changing the rules, killing emotion just to have the same inconsistent decisions made??
At the moment the technology isn’t there to call offsides accurately, actually it doesn’t seem anywhere near accurate.
it should be used with a big margin of error and ideally actually measurements, so and so was shown to be 2cmOver agreed threshold of offside etc. If people want to be anal enough to introduce lines and what not to offside decisions they should be anal enough to want the correct call accurately arrived at.
untill the technology is there with chips and lasers and what not, offside calls should be taken with a good error of margin used. We can’t continue with lines up to arm pit nonsense.
I’m sure we agree but have been debating each other
Yes, I do think it's the perceived help to defenders that is winding folks up here, tbh. Offside is back in use as a defence and it has affected attacking play, imo.
I actually prefer it myself but not all the games are being played around just the penalty area of the less good team now. To exaggerate my point/suggestion.
You sound intent on just complaining.Sorry, I confused you with someone wanting just the feet checked for offside and not a scoring body part. some ideas are frankly ridiculous
chips in the boots and balls is where I think we need to be for any kind of accuracy. I don’t think we’re anywhere near that though.
that’s without even getting into players having to send their boots off for chips installed
Ideas are supposed to sound ridiculous at first too, so I take that as a compliment. If you offered any actual substance in your post it would be way cooler.Players already do wear stuff that track their running stats, passing etc no? That information has to be recorded somewhere realtime and collected for it to be used at half time review. I doubt the technology isn't there for what I'm proposing. I did say the feet should be checked for offside on account that you use your feet to run with and not with your head. Do you run past players with your head? If not then everyone can agree that gaining an advantage by trying to run in front of the last defender can be decided where you put your foot. It makes it a lot easier, which is the point.
It’s very difficult. Given that the line has to be drawn somewhere, it’s always going to pick up the smallest offside and people will always moan.
The problem is, the offside rule was not created for this level of scrutiny. It was created for the clear and obvious, and it was always said that if it isn’t clear and obvious then the benefit of the doubt will go to the attacking player, that way it doesn’t take away goals that are so tight you’re not really gaining an unfair advantage being in that position. Using VAR for offsides that aren’t just tight but not even visible to the naked eye is just not Football.
The only thing they can do is return to this principle and just not use VAR unless it’s a clear and obvious offside. But then it could start missing offsides that aren’t clear and obvious but the attacker is still getting an unfair advantage.
Maybe it should be like tennis where the defending team can only appeal an offside once or twice a match or something. So only when it’s obvious to somebody standing on the touch line will goals get rightly ruled out. Not this ridiculous scrutiny for the smallest bit of boot that might be over that drawn on line on every single fecking goal.
We may just have to get used to ridiculously small offsides getting ruled out all the time which could kill the game.
The problem is, the offside rule was not created for this level of scrutiny. It was created for the clear and obvious, and it was always said that if it isn’t clear and obvious then the benefit of the doubt will go to the attacking player, that way it doesn’t take away goals that are so tight you’re not really gaining an unfair advantage being in that position. Using VAR for offsides that aren’t just tight but not even visible to the naked eye is just not Football.
The only thing they can do is return to this principle and just not use VAR unless it’s a clear and obvious offside. But then it could start missing offsides that aren’t clear and obvious but the attacker is still getting an unfair advantage.
Maybe it should be like tennis where the defending team can only appeal an offside once or twice a match or something. So only when it’s obvious to somebody standing on the touch line will goals get rightly ruled out. Not this ridiculous scrutiny for the smallest bit of boot that might be over that drawn on line on every single fecking goal.
We may just have to get used to ridiculously small offsides getting ruled out all the time which could kill the game.
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I am no fan of how VAR is being used, but think this is more of a laws of the game issue than a VAR issue.
As has been said multiple times in this thread, the offside law needs to be revisited.
For me, offsides is offsides - whether a millimeter or a meter. A player is either offsides or not, there is no grey area. The issue is how the rule seems to be applied differently every match day. It’s similar to the hand ball issue.
Write the offside rule clearly, apply it consistently as the law states and move on.
As has been said multiple times in this thread, the offside law needs to be revisited.
For me, offsides is offsides - whether a millimeter or a meter. A player is either offsides or not, there is no grey area. The issue is how the rule seems to be applied differently every match day. It’s similar to the hand ball issue.
Write the offside rule clearly, apply it consistently as the law states and move on.
Yeah, I probably am intent on complaining. It’s ruining the sport for me and this last weekend has broken me, I can’t be arsed to watch it anymore when we don’t even know if a goal is a a goal or no goal is a goal or maybe it’s a goal or maybe someone was offside a few mins ago but we’re they offside or was it a goal or did a defender handle it or did he really trip him up on the halfway line so it’s not a goal. It’s just a steaming pile of shit IMO and has ruined the enjoyment of the game.You sound intent on just complaining.
Players already do wear stuff that track their running stats, passing etc no? That information has to be recorded somewhere realtime and collected for it to be used at half time review. I doubt the technology isn't there for what I'm proposing. I did say the feet should be checked for offside on account that you use your feet to run with and not with your head. Do you run past players with your head? If not then everyone can agree that gaining an advantage by trying to run in front of the last defender can be decided where you put your foot. It makes it a lot easier, which is the point.
But yes, you’re right, enough moaning about it from me now
Let's assume the current system is accurate within millimeters and always gives the correct position , even determining the exact moment of pass. Then , it's still disadvantageous to the attacker: they cannot possibly know the position of their body compared to the last defender at all times, with that tight margin.
This is what I believe might work: They are doing some form of 3D reconstruction now. They are supposed to have a 3D model of the scene in the freeze frames which means that they can rotate a virtual camera within that model, changing the observer view point.
If this is the case, then:
1. Rotate and translate the virtual camera to the exact offside line, creating a perfect linesman viewpoint.
2. Show this new repositioned freeze frame to a linesman in the VAR room or better yet:
Show it to the actual linesman via a mobile device such as tablet that an official gives to them. Linesmen are always on the touch lines so all is needed is two people with two tablets to be waiting at some place behind the two line officials during the game.
3. If they can't say whether its offside or not within 10 seconds , then its not offside.
This is what I believe might work: They are doing some form of 3D reconstruction now. They are supposed to have a 3D model of the scene in the freeze frames which means that they can rotate a virtual camera within that model, changing the observer view point.
If this is the case, then:
1. Rotate and translate the virtual camera to the exact offside line, creating a perfect linesman viewpoint.
2. Show this new repositioned freeze frame to a linesman in the VAR room or better yet:
Show it to the actual linesman via a mobile device such as tablet that an official gives to them. Linesmen are always on the touch lines so all is needed is two people with two tablets to be waiting at some place behind the two line officials during the game.
3. If they can't say whether its offside or not within 10 seconds , then its not offside.
Agree with that. The way it is used is beyond laughable. My perception is that even if I shut my eyes and wish it gone, I will be as annoyed or more without it every time these shit decisions happens.. knowing they had a chance to fix poor refereeing, blew it and blamed it's demise on the public vote.
I don't agree with that premiss. Defence pushes up comes with it's own risk. The attackers have always played the percentages to possibly gain an unfair advantage, and the defender has tried to counter that too. Sometimes the ref has called offside wrongly when the attacker has been very clever just because he looks so far ahead of the defence it looks offside. Other times clear offsides have not been caught. It is not unfair, it is just a part of the game.
Having the calls being millimeter correct just means the ones who are good at timing their runs will win, while defenders who are good at playing people offside will win. Cheaters won't be rewarded. The way it should be.
My wife always said I could argue with myself if left alone in a room.I’m sure we agree but have been debating each other
Offside is offside simple as that even if it’s small inches. So far VAR has done very well on the offside decision, it’s probably the easiest thing to make decision. However everything went well until the Pukki’s offside. I saw the red & blue lines and they are inlined to me, not sure why it’s called offside.
Even the encroachment rule makes no sense. The penalty should only be retaken if the player who actually encroached gained an advantage in clearing the ball. Otherwise how is his encroachment affecting the outcome?
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To be fair, that’s how it’s being done currently.
I should have been more clear. I meant, taking for example the Wolves-City game, there was a City player ahead of any Wolves player in the box when the penalty was taken, so how is the Wolves player gaining an advantage in clearing the ball after the save? How is encroachment affecting the outcome here?
I'll edit my earlier post to make it clear
If that City player had touched the ball first then I believe that would've resulted in a free-kick in favor of Wolves. Just because his opponent is encroaching shouldn't make it right for him to encroach as well. I think encroachment is one of the well-handled areas of VAR.
I think the rules are there to prevent any team gaining an advantage. I don't see how the Wolves player is gaining an advantage there.
I think its something FIFA will look into this summer. Football is the only sport that is taking away scoring, and in a very unpopular, nerdy manner. I think this will not be allowed to continue due to viewership concerns.
Because he was inside the area when the penalty was taken and hence was able to clear it quicker than he should have. Not sure what's there not to see. If the City player (who was supposedly also in the area before him) touched it or contributed in any positive way, it would've been called against him. Anyways, we're digressing from the VAR offside discussion so let's leave this one for another forum.
Replying to the OP: I totally agree with total non-sense about offsides and VAR. It's just so unnatural and stupid. And yes I also agree that technology is far from perfect yet in the end it comes down to milimeters and size of players shoes and/or man-boobs.
But both suggested ways wouldn't solve this, they would just move this decision involving milimeters a few centimeters towards the goal. I think offisdes should be treated the same way as fouls; if there is clear and obvious error, VAR can and should overturn it. If it's a matter of centimeters it obviously isn't clear and obvious error.
But both suggested ways wouldn't solve this, they would just move this decision involving milimeters a few centimeters towards the goal. I think offisdes should be treated the same way as fouls; if there is clear and obvious error, VAR can and should overturn it. If it's a matter of centimeters it obviously isn't clear and obvious error.
Aye. VAR should align with the rules that have served the game well for generations. Not the other way round.
And the daylight rule never existed and was probably just an Andy Grayism that caught traction. It only moves the point of contention to a couple of feet down the park and doesn’t resolve any of the current issues. It also presents the following problem.
Yes. The offside rule cannot be changed without consideration of how it impacts all levels of the game. The Premier League only forms a minuscule proportion of the football that is played in any given week.
This
Fair enough.
"Inzaghi was born offside" -Sir Alex. For years I believed this was a funny joke. But after watching this ridiculous VAR offside rule, its not a joke anymore.
Breaking an offside trap is the art in football, and Inzaghi was the master of this art. He used to pulls his legs behind the last defender to be onside, but his hand was clearly offside. Its very difficult for the linesman to see the moving hands.
Back in the 90's the offside rule was defined by a defender's and an attacker's foot. I didn't know when it was changed, but the old rules is the best way to fix this problem.
Even a finger can be offside now? How would the linesman saw that?
What if the the VAR ref had mistaken the timing of the pass?
The actual ref and linesman have to be involve on the decision, because technology isn't always right.
Breaking an offside trap is the art in football, and Inzaghi was the master of this art. He used to pulls his legs behind the last defender to be onside, but his hand was clearly offside. Its very difficult for the linesman to see the moving hands.
Back in the 90's the offside rule was defined by a defender's and an attacker's foot. I didn't know when it was changed, but the old rules is the best way to fix this problem.
Even a finger can be offside now? How would the linesman saw that?
What if the the VAR ref had mistaken the timing of the pass?
The actual ref and linesman have to be involve on the decision, because technology isn't always right.
I'd suggest the thing that needs "fixing" in football is the culture where managers, players and fans blame officials rather than the things that they are in control of.
Half the problem is still the goons that are in charge of it. Between the referee and the VAR operators they are still trying to exert their own influence and subjectivity based on the context of the match and the season rather than be entirely objective and call it as they see it.