Was Veron a flop?

[Carl]

Always looked way more comfortable on the CL rather than the PL. His CL performances were levels above, actually.

When you look at expectation and fee paid, you do have to say he was a flop though. Remember thinking we'd absolutely mugged Chelsea when they gave us that fee.

 

[11101]

He couldn't get up to the frantic pace of the league. He was used to having time to pick his passes and couldn't exert the same influence here. If we had set the team up around him maybe it would have been different but we just dropped him in and expected him to perform.

He wasnt a flop but he reminds me a lot of somebody like Pogba. Great at times but we expected too much from him.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

History has been unkind to him. He is often put alongside Di Maria and Sanchez as a candidate for our worst ever signings, and he was nowhere near that bad.

He was fantastic in europe and had his moments in the PL.

I think he was similar to Pogba really, good, but not at the level he found in Italy.

Giggs was talking about him in an interview a while back and called him one of the best players he's ever seen in training.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I don't think he was ever at the level of Pogba, he was a different style to the usual British midfielders back then, more like a Carrick. Ahead of his time.

 

[SATA]

He was tipped and odds on to be footballer of the year after his debut against Everton. He did some amazing things in that game which i have never seen a United player do after Cantona. Sadly it gradually started to fizzle with the good odd game in the CL here and there. It’s noticeable he absolutely loved playing with Beckham though, both of them used to find each other with passes with a swagger

 

[TRUERED89]

Jeez, i could have won a League medal if I was thrown into that sqaud!

Luke Chadwick also won the league with us that year!

 

[Gio]

A couple of points:

• There were tactical compatability issues as everyone has rightly identified. I think it's a bit more nuanced than just he didn't fit the English game. United's midfield was such a cohesive and perfectly balanced unit that any adjustments were only likely to have a negative affect. In the Premier League they played a very vertical box-to-box game, whereas in Europe it was more considered as, post 2000, they attempted to exert more control on matches. That's where Veron shone the brightest for United.
• There were personnel compatability issues. Keane had grown to become the alpha playmaker in the team and was in no mood to defer those duties and revert to the box-to-box runner role he mostly followed in the mid-1990s. Scholes and Beckham also had playmaking instincts and liked to be at the heart of matters, so collectively there was already a lot of dictating from the middle of the park which reduced the requirement, certainly in the league, for more. And if you look at Veron's best league performances, they tended to come when Keane and/or Beckham were absent. For instance, the 2-0 win over Arsenal in 2002 when Phil Neville was Veron's willing lieutenant in the heart of midfield to provide the perfect platform:
  

  This was the ground where Arsenal cemented their double last year and they are still favourites to take another title, although there was little evidence of the attacking style that has lifted them above the rest this season. Patrick Vieira was comprehensively outplayed by Juan Sebastian Veron.

  That mirrored the set-up that Veron excelled in for Lazio, Parma and Argentina. At Lazio he played in a four-man midfield, but next to a workhorse in Almeyda. For Argentina his partner giving him the ball was usually Simeone. At Parma usually Dino Baggio or Fuser.
• And crucially the problem was that Veron never returned to the heights he had reached in the previous five years in Serie A. He didn't get a proper pre-season at United and started on the back foot. It was a position he never recovered from. And there is a clear difference to the physicality he showed in Serie A where he used to go toe-to-toe with some real midfield warriors like Edgar Davids and often come out on top. There are plenty of match compilations on Youtube that are worth a watch to show he had all the necessary tools to boss midfields at any level. After 2001 he was no longer in his physical prime and it was fairly evident when he moved to other clubs and returned to Serie A. He always oozed class, but had lost an edge by that point in his career.

 

[SATA]

Fergie didn’t know how to fit him in his team. He has always played 4-4-2 but Veron had no part to play in that formation. Argentina do produce some great players of his kind though. Veron, Aimar, Riquelme

 

[Robbie Boy]

Yup. Absolute superstar of a player of a player who would thrive in today's PL. He just joined during the wrong era for a player of his ilk.

 

[harms]

Yes, he was a flop but that was a time when we had different standards. I'd say that the one transfer that it resembled the most was Di Maria, and it's not because they're both from Argentina. Both came as genuinely one of the best players on the planet (Veron was insanely highly rated, as well as Di Maria who was probably Real Madrid's second best performer behind Cristiano), both showed quite enough class in episodes and both failed to fully adapt to the league and ended up being sold quite soon (and still for a relatively high fee). Di Maria had more issues with his attitude & Veron's problems were more about the league & United's playing style, but still, I see a lot of resembles.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

I loved this signing even though it didn't work out and it's the kind of move that I would slate Guardiola for these days. Already got the best midfield in the country by far and then go out and sign arguably the best midfielder in the world at that time. Adding layers of quality to the squad, never standing still. Giving both Keane and Scholes a reason to keep improving and never get complacent whilst giving more tactical options for tough European nights, God I miss Fergie.

 

[Rood]

Yes absolutely a flop - clearly a supremely talented player but just didnt fit in at Old Trafford, in fact his stint at Chelsea probably shows that English football in general was not for him

it was one of the very few times Fergie made a real 'Galactico' signing and I think the fact that it didnt work out was one of the reasons he didnt made many more of that type of world class signing

 

[twitchchris]

Came with a huge reputation but struggled to find his place in the team. The frustrating part was I remember watching pre season the year Beckham left and Veron looked unbelievable for us. A few days later he was sold. Probably the right decision ultimately but a shame as he seemed to want to rise from Beckhams shadow somewhat only to be flung out.

I remember the match against Club America on that tour, Veron looked Great: he was involved in everything, going box-to-box, directing play. I was getting excited to see him play in the coming season, but he was sold to Chelsea before I could finish the thought.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

He was a flop, but not entirely his fault. Didn't fit into the United system really and was an indulgent signing like Berbatov where the team was winning everything and Ferguson wanted to freshen it up and create competition.

He cost a lot of money for the time, be like buying an £80m midfielder now, given his impact was fairly minimal you have to say he was.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Deep down Fergie always longed for Zidane but could never quite convince the Frenchman,which was made even more harder when Madrid showed interest and finally brought him to the Bernabeu.

 

[thepolice123]

Which players in those teams are you suggesting are like Pogba? Veron was a far better playmaker certainly, but not in a pl suited style.

Leicester play with two attacking #8 in their midfield. Tielemans for example is one, he plays box-to-box, his strengths are his through balls, long balls over the top, dribbling and shots from distance. He is not an orchestor like Kroos and he can be careless on the ball, decision-making is questionable as well. Similar to Pogba, he needs runners for him to play his passes and a defensive midfielder to cover for him.

Liverpool have Keita and Oxlade. Similar strengths and weaknesses. Dribbles a lot and losses possession a lot. Can be a game changer on their day. Will drift in and out of the game.

Man City - Similar to Pogba, KDB drifts to the flanks to support the wing forward. Needs movement in the box for his crosses and through passes to be fully effective. He also has a high octane inverted full-back to make runs for him and cover for him in midfield.

Spurs spunked 55m pounds on Ndombele who is essentially a lesser version of Pogba. Currently out of favour with Mourinho as well.

Chelsea - Ross Barkley

With the exception of KDB, I think Pogba is easily the better player than all of them. I can't remember if Veron was the better playmaker but if you ask me Pogba is the better player. He is more athletic, has far better dribbling skills and a bigger goal threat. If we can't get the best out of Pogba it is entirely down to us because any team would love to have him in their team.

 

[Shakesy]

He had his moments!

That is the saddest thing I've seen today. The best of times...

 

[thepolice123]

He was a flop, but not entirely his fault. Didn't fit into the United system really and was an indulgent signing like Berbatov where the team was winning everything and Ferguson wanted to freshen it up and create competition.

He cost a lot of money for the time, be like buying an £80m midfielder now, given his impact was fairly minimal you have to say he was.

He was hardly an indulgent signing, Fergie clearly wanted to adopt a more European-styled midfield. The 99 treble already peaked 2 years before and needed a change. Keane was aging and he did not adapt to the anchorman role. We had no choice but to play Veron in a flat midfield two alongside Keane which he obviously struggled. He got absolutely crucified for poor defensive contribution. It is exactly the same thing we are doing with Pogba now.

 

[MancFanFromManc]

Veron was a statement of intent. His signing showed that we could compete for the big names. He was also signed to elevate our Champions League potential. He struggled to impose himself in the Prem, but he was a very good player. Having said that I wouldn't compare him to Bruno atall. Maybe Neville didn't want to compare him to Scholes and panicked :P

 

[Charlie Foley]

I don't think he was a flop exactly, but it certainly didn't work out.

He was bought as SAF was experimenting with moving away from his tried and tested 442. You'd been knocked out of Europe the previous two years by Madrid and Bayern respectively both playing 433 and passing through Utd's 2 man midfield.

Ferguson switched his formation that year at the beginning of the season to 451 to fit Veron in and at first it worked really well and Veron scored a few as well, but after a shock loss to Bolton you went on a losing run and 442 was eventually reintroduced, Veron struggled in that, there were also rumours of senior players taking him to one side to explain what playing for Man Utd really meant and how he wasn't trying hard enough, believe what you will.

Personally I think he never adapted properly to the premiership, his time at Chelsea was even worse than his time at Utd, the league wasn't technical enough for a player with his skill set in those days.

I do remember SAF saying to the press something like "He's a fecking great player and you're bunch of fecking idiots" and then walking out of the presser though!

Nice perspective from a non united fan. That sir Alex part was brilliant

 

[stubie]

We saw the best of Veron in Europe at United

Started the 2001/02 great in the league but form sadly faded after a few months, still an outstanding player. I still think he would have been better in a midfield of Beckham-Veron-Keane-Giggs with van Nistelrooy and Solskjaer up front

 

[fps]

History has been unkind to him. He is often put alongside Di Maria and Sanchez as a candidate for our worst ever signings, and he was nowhere near that bad.

He was fantastic in europe and had his moments in the PL.

I think he was similar to Pogba really, good, but not at the level he found in Italy.

Giggs was talking about him in an interview a while back and called him one of the best players he's ever seen in training.

I mean, ultimately it helped that the rest of the team was so good that they won anyway. Bit like Juventus with Pogba really....

Leicester play with two attacking #8 in their midfield. Tielemans for example is one, he plays box-to-box, his strengths are his through balls, long balls over the top, dribbling and shots from distance. He is not an orchestor like Kroos and he can be careless on the ball, decision-making is questionable as well. Similar to Pogba, he needs runners for him to play his passes and a defensive midfielder to cover for him.

Liverpool have Keita and Oxlade. Similar strengths and weaknesses. Dribbles a lot and losses possession a lot. Can be a game changer on their day. Will drift in and out of the game.

Man City - Similar to Pogba, KDB drifts to the flanks to support the wing forward. Needs movement in the box for his crosses and through passes to be fully effective. He also has a high octane inverted full-back to make runs for him and cover for him in midfield.

Spurs spunked 55m pounds on Ndombele who is essentially a lesser version of Pogba. Currently out of favour with Mourinho as well.

Chelsea - Ross Barkley

With the exception of KDB, I think Pogba is easily the better player than all of them. I can't remember if Veron was the better playmaker but if you ask me Pogba is the better player. He is more athletic, has far better dribbling skills and a bigger goal threat. If we can't get the best out of Pogba it is entirely down to us because any team would love to have him in their team.

The comparisons I see here are with players who don’t massively affect games... he’s not a patch on de Bruyne but very few are.

 

[Andersonson]

He struggled with the tempo at times. You never saw Keane or Scholes struggling with that, so he was a tier below them.

I remember some games when he was ran over and just looked perplexed by the tempo.

But when in control he was class. Just not as good as Keane or Scholes.

 

[Irwin99]

Immensely talented but just didn't fit in to the league or the team's style. He lost the ball a lot with very simple passes going astray which was frustrating to watch. Everything went through Keane in those days as he demanded the ball from deep and would look to give it to the attacking players and Scholes used to dart about all over the place finding space between the lines. There really didn't seem much point in Veron in the premier league games. No coincidence that most of his best moments came in CL matches.

 

[RedSky]

SAF gave Veron assurances that he would be a major part of a new team without Beckham and in doing so Veron and his agent dismissed SAF promises and started to search out new takers for his services. Basically,they went behind SAF back and the Scotsman got royally pissed off.

Interesting, I never knew that. Well thats a shame.

 

[Van Piorsing]

During SAF times he could be tipped as a flop due to incredibly high football standards in the club, but he was one of the few who could combine Bekcham's and Scholesy's precision when shooting and passing.

There was a lot logic behind this signing as a player was talented enough to play for United.

 

[Foxbatt]

Fergie doesn't know how to use those kinds of players. Riquelme would have been a flop too at United if Fergie had bought him.

 

[thepolice123]

I mean, ultimately it helped that the rest of the team was so good that they won anyway. Bit like Juventus with Pogba really.

Pogba was the highest rated Juventus player in the balon d'or rankings.

The comparisons I see here are with players who don’t massively affect games... he’s not a patch on de Bruyne but very few are.

Keita, Ndombele and Tielemans cost their respective clubs record fees. This is only their first season here. I know the market is inflated but surely you'd think there's a better reason for purchasing them?

KDB plays in a team that has 2 attacking fullbacks and 4 attack minded midfielders.

 

[Invictus]

We probably shouldn't have signed him in the first place — guess the rationale was that he would give us greater control in matches and drive the team forward (suspect the seed of doubt was planted in Fergie's mind after the Champions League loss to Madrid/Redondo in 2000 where they outmaneuvered us in midfield), but Verón thrived when he had the freedom and time to dictate to proceedings in his own inimitable way, and we already had plenty of dominant midfielders in Beckham, Keane, Scholes (who were unlikely to take a backseat to him or afford him the time to play at a more leisurely tempo). Furthermore, at Lazio the likes of Roberto Sensini or Matías Almeyda would cover/sweep for Verón and Stanković — he wasn't offered the same kind of security blanket at United on a consistent basis.

In fairness, he had a good start to his United career but once Fergie started to move back to his tried and trusted methods, the writing was on the wall. This match was the beginning of the end with regard to the short lived packed-midfield experiment, and Verón's form/performances deteriorated quite a bit in the following weeks and months...



A flop because of his price and the expectations associated with signing a borderline Galáctico level player in an era where the best of the best usually joined Italian clubs or the Spanish Big-2 when at the peak of their powers, but there were mitigating circumstances — a fair few of them beyond his individual control. Nedvěd was the Lazio player we should have aimed for, even without the benefit of hindsight — more more suited to the English game because of his headstrong nature, effervescence, agility, stamina and tactical malleability — and wouldn't have disrupted the central midfield dynamics that much.

 

[Siorac]

He had his moments!

It frustrates me to an unreasonable extent that the video's title is "United 2-1 Arsenal" when the game finished 2-0.

And yes, Verón was a flop. He was a club record transfer who was meant to take us to the next level but never managed to nail a place down in the side. A player like him would have been great a few years later, once our football and tactical approach changed quite a bit but at that time it didn't work out for him.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Yes absolutely a flop - clearly a supremely talented player but just didnt fit in at Old Trafford, in fact his stint at Chelsea probably shows that English football in general was not for him

it was one of the very few times Fergie made a real 'Galactico' signing and I think the fact that it didnt work out was one of the reasons he didnt made many more of that type of world class signing

Aye. Veron was the biggest player in the world at the time. Muppets today would shit themselves if we made such a signing.

 

[jasT1981]

Would not say a flop, but didn't live up to full expectations in the Premier league. From what I remember though he was fantastic on European nights for us.

 

[Tiber]

Nah, he won the Premier league with us.

So did Kieran Richardson

 

[Van Piorsing]

I still prefer Veron to stay rather than one year later signing Djemba and Miller - two legit flops.

 

[Maticmaker]

I remember Veron scored our fourth goal in that fabulous comeback against Spurs 2001 at White Hart Lane. We were down 3-0 at halftime and we came back to win 3-5. One of the highlights of his brief career at United.

As others have said, in trying to establish a place in the team Veron was up against one of our best midfields ever and his style didn't really suit us, but he was no flop. Can't really remember why Fergie signed him, perhaps he thought he was about to lose, Keane??

Like Pogba's finest hour is likely to be remembered as that second half against City when we came from 2-0 down, then that day at Tottenham was probably Veron's finest hour in a red shirt.

 

[Class of 63]

Why is that? Didn't they play different positions? I'm curious because I was young at the time and saw him play without fully comprehending if or why he wasn't successful.

Beckham was a reluctant right-sided midfielder, he always thought he should play centrally, or at least be given the chance to prove he could/couldn't cut it playing there, so when Veron came in he felt his nose was being pushed out - and it was the beginning of the end for him at United.

 

[Relevated]

Beckham was a reluctant right-sided midfielder, he always thought he should play centrally, or at least be given the chance to prove he could/couldn't cut it playing there, so when Veron came in he felt his nose was being pushed out - and it was the beginning of the end for him at United.

Was Beckham right in thinking he could play cm?

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

I thought he was brilliant...not sure we played the right formation to get the best out of him. Definitely not a flop.

 

[matherto]

He flopped.

He was a huge signing and he never really made his mark, plus he put Scholes' nose out of joint and broke up the Giggs - Scholes - Keane - Beckham midfield four that had served us so well.

I remember him being good in European games because it felt like he was more used to that style of play whereas he struggled to impose himself in the Prem despite his obvious qualities.

We saw signs but nowhere near enough. Then he flopped even worse after being flogged to Chelsea despite SAF saying he was going to prove everyone wrong in pre-season (always thought that was odd). I suppose SAF having to say he'd prove everyone wrong is proof that he was a flop.

A bit like Berbatov he came into a team structure already established and stuck out like a sore thumb.

 

[DRM]

He was OK, had a few decent moments like the goal against arsenal and the equaliser against spurs to make it 3-3. A nice assist for Forlan too v chelsea and some decent performances in the CL. But overall for the money we paid (which was a lot back then) he failed to be the player to take us to the next level.

A good video showing all of his goals (I didnt realise he scored so few)