SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

sammsky1

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Absolutely. I don't disagree. I'm just pointing out that the evidence suggests masks don't protect against infection.
If it only reduces those who are infected from spreading (asymptomatic as infected should anyway be in self isolation) , and acts as a reminder for wearers to not touch nose or mouth, then these are good enough reasons to wear for me.

Assuming of course this is not at the expense of front line workers such as NHS, shop and retail sector workers etc
 

Robbo's Shoulder

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I really feel sorry for supermarket workers at the moment.

The NHS working are rightly getting love from the public but the dude at Asda or the lady at Tesco didn't sign up for this shit.
I only took on the delivery driver's job at Tesco as an easy number after working in the defence sector to see me through to retirement, I can honestly say I haven't worked as hard in my life as the last few weeks. The vast majority of customers (mainly our regulars) have been great and really thankful for what they get even with all the subs and non availabilities but some? Honestly, I just want to punch them in the face There really are some fecking self entitled arseholes knocking about.
 

Cal?

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Look at South Korea. It didn't stop a very large number of deaths before finally peaking.
People have already discussed some issues in Japan earlier in the thread.
Singapore and Hong Kong both have labels of "quanrantine" so you can't say whether it was the masks or the quanrantine that proved most effective.
Koreans didn't really start wearing masks until after the initial explosion of cases.
Japan, granted, there is a serious issue with the testing.
Hong Kong, I live here, and the quarantine was a joke initially, people were told to stay home but only checked via phone location sharing.

Anyway, I just don't see what is the downside to wearing masks (if available).
 

Revan

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You would need literally everyone wearing them, and then not contaminating things through improper use or wearing them and then contaminating themselves anyway through improperly doing something else.

How many masks would that take? How much other protective equipment to do so properly?

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/26...olds-lesson-defeating-it-demands-persistence/
About a billion each day for the US, I would say. With them being quite cheap, it is feck all in grand scheme of things.

And yep, if China or South Korea can produce as many as needed, so can the US.
 

Pagh Wraith

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Genuine question but how did Zoom become so popular. I had never heard of even only two weeks ago???
I've been using it for years for teaching. So much better than Skype but sadly this is what most (private) people have.
 

Revan

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Koreans didn't really start wearing masks until after the initial explosion of cases.
Japan, granted, there is a serious issue with the testing.
Hong Kong, I live here, and the quarantine was a joke initially, people were told to stay home but only checked via phone location sharing.

Anyway, I just don't see what is the downside to wearing masks (if available).
None. The problem is that there is a shortage of them (cause wester governments did feck all for 2 months), so in the last few weeks they had to do propaganda how masks do not help, or make things even worse. I can understand that point of view (to ensure that doctors and nurses stay protected), but it was obviously a lie.
 

Cal?

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You would need literally everyone wearing them, and then not contaminating things through improper use or wearing them and then contaminating themselves anyway through improperly doing something else.

How many masks would that take? How much other protective equipment to do so properly?

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/26...olds-lesson-defeating-it-demands-persistence/
Great article, basically Hong Kongers are battling against the government as well as the virus in all of this.
 

Cal?

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None. The problem is that there is a shortage of them (cause wester governments did feck all for 2 months), so in the last few weeks they had to do propaganda how masks do not help, or make things even worse. I can understand that point of view (to ensure that doctors and nurses stay protected), but it was obviously a lie.
It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
 

JPRouve

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For people following Worldometers they made a mess of the french stats, the total cases only include people hospitalized while the deaths include hosptitalized and care homes death. In reality there is approximately 17800 more cases in France.
 

Carolina Red

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About a billion each day for the US, I would say. With them being quite cheap, it is feck all in grand scheme of things.

And yep, if China or South Korea can produce as many as needed, so can the US.
Yeah, we're doing a great job of it at the moment [sarcasm off]
 

Revan

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Revan

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Yeah, we're doing a great job of it at the moment [sarcasm off]
To be fair, China and South Korea were much better prepared for this, and were waiting for this to happen since SARS (in case of Korea they also had the experience of MERS which was even more terrifying than SARS). The US did feck all until March, pretending that if we all think that the problem will go away, it will go away. Saying that, the US has the ability to mobilize much faster than most countries (just look at the testing how it went from close to 0 to more than 100k/day in a space of a week) so in the end, producing a shitload of masks would be trivial if there is a strong incentive to do so.
 

JPRouve

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It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
Both. Healthcare professionals have to spend several hours everyday in close proximity to contaminated patients, they need masks and all the gears possible to limit contamination in an highly risky environment. You and I don't spend several hours in that environment and it's relatively easy to drastically reduce risks, wash your hands often with soap, keep your distances with people that aren't from your household.
 

Carolina Red

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It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
I've already said that is a false dilemma.

There are so many other items of protective equipment and protective procedures that medical workers wear and take in addition to wearing the n95. The mask is part of a larger system.
 

Revan

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It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
The doctors were obviously trying to not spread the virus to sick patients.
 

Cal?

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Both. Healthcare professionals have to spend several hours everyday in close proximity to contaminated patients, they need masks and all the gears possible to limit contamination in an highly risky environment. You and I don't spend several hours in that environment and it's relatively easy to drastically reduce risks, wash your hands often with soap, keep your distances with people that aren't from your household.
Agreed, but they're better off saying that, "Please don't hoard masks so that healthcare professionals can get them", rather than the stupid line of "they don't work, but the professionals need them".
 

0le

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None. The problem is that there is a shortage of them (cause wester governments did feck all for 2 months), so in the last few weeks they had to do propaganda how masks do not help, or make things even worse. I can understand that point of view (to ensure that doctors and nurses stay protected), but it was obviously a lie.
A lot of the science was not propaganda. You are very mistaken if you think that is the case. Again, no one disputes that the effectiveness of [appropriate] masks to prevent the inhalation of droplets and the spread of droplets from infected individuals. The issues of debate are (A) the dispersion and settling properties of the droplets and (B) the biological aspects of how just how significant is transmission by droplets. With regards to (A), I have a background in this field, which is why I can tell you it wasn't propaganda. With regards to (B), this is what I have seen in news articles.

It was a ridiculous message that contradicts itself, wearing masks isn't a useful guard, but please make sure the healthcare professionals have them available to guard against the virus. So which is it?
Doctors/nurses/carers/other NHS hospital staff are continually exposed to infected individuals so they do need full PPE. The public have far less exposure because the country is in lockdown. As already explained above, average joe in the public may not wear the mask correctly. So the current thinking is not to recommend the mask for the general public. Whether you agree with that advice or not is your opinion of course, but the two cases are certainly not contradictory.
 

Revan

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Both. Healthcare professionals have to spend several hours everyday in close proximity to contaminated patients, they need masks and all the gears possible to limit contamination in an highly risky environment. You and I don't spend several hours in that environment and it's relatively easy to drastically reduce risks, wash your hands often with soap, keep your distances with people that aren't from your household.
Sure. But wearing the mask further reduces the possibility of getting infected, and even more importantly, it reduces the possibility of you infecting others. It definitely does not put you even more at risk, unless you start licking the mask when you remove it.

Now, obviously, if it is between me and a doctor wearing a mask, of course, that the doctor should be prioritized. But masks are such an easy thing to be produced, and since January it was known that we will reach this stage. So countries should have been prepared to have masks for everyone.
 

Cal?

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I've already said that is a false dilemma.

There are so many other items of protective equipment and protective procedures that medical workers wear and take in addition to wearing the n95. The mask is part of a larger system.
Of course, but the point remains that it's better to tell people the truth (refer to above post).
The doctors were obviously trying to not spread the virus to sick patients.
:lol:
 

FrankDrebin

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Its open. People inside. England's f*cked.
 

Revan

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A lot of the science was not propaganda. You are very mistaken if you think that is the case. Again, no one disputes that the effectiveness of [appropriate] masks to prevent the inhalation of droplets and the spread of droplets from infected individuals. The issues of debate are (A) the dispersion and settling properties of the droplets and (B) the biological aspects of how just how significant is transmission by droplets. With regards to (A), I have a background in this field, which is why I can tell you it wasn't propaganda. With regards to (B), this is what I have seen in news articles.



Doctors/nurses/carers/other NHS hospital staff are continually exposed to infected individuals so they do need full PPE. The public have far less exposure because the country is in lockdown. As already explained above, average joe in the public may not wear the mask correctly. So the current thinking is not to recommend the mask for the general public. Whether you agree with that advice or not is your opinion of course, but the two cases are certainly not contradictory.
Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
 

0le

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But masks are such an easy thing to be produced
I genuinely don't know, are they? Do we have sufficient raw materials do produce them on a daily basis, ensure they are delivered and implemented correctly (by giving the public the appropriate training)? Carolina posted the good article that you can clean disposable masks under some very specific set of circumstances, but to industrialise this process also has a timescale, and you also need the public to return their masks (many won't). If you factor all that in, it seems quite difficult rather than easy?
 

Heardy

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Sure. But wearing the mask further reduces the possibility of getting infected, and even more importantly, it reduces the possibility of you infecting others. It definitely does not put you even more at risk, unless you start licking the mask when you remove it.

Now, obviously, if it is between me and a doctor wearing a mask, of course, that the doctor should be prioritized. But masks are such an easy thing to be produced, and since January it was known that we will reach this stage. So countries should have been prepared to have masks for everyone.
Can’t disagree with this. I’ve looked for masks and it’s like searching for rocking horse shit.
 

Carolina Red

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Of course, but the point remains that it's better to tell people the truth (refer to above post).
What exactly does the "truth" mean to you in this instance? Because to me, the "truth" would be "you'll need to wear PPE and follow proper procedure for this to be effective"... and since people who arent' trained to do this won't, then saying it isn't effective is the truth.
 

Cal?

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Doctors/nurses/carers/other NHS hospital staff are continually exposed to infected individuals so they do need full PPE. The public have far less exposure because the country is in lockdown. As already explained above, average joe in the public may not wear the mask correctly. So the current thinking is not to recommend the mask for the general public. Whether you agree with that advice or not is your opinion of course, but the two cases are certainly not contradictory.
I'm not saying medical professionals shouldn't be prioritized.

I've yet to seen anyone saying wearing a masks incorrectly is worse than not wearing one at all, as long as you don't start licking it like @Revan pointed out.

Also, how difficult is it to wear and dispose of one correctly? I'm sure any government can knock up a video in no time.
 

0le

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Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
There really is no need for a condescending tone. People generally don't follow advice, follow advice poorly or simply ignore advice. The best example is the current president of the USA.
 

nimic

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Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
Who says the mask thing is what worked for South Korea and China, as opposed to the other incredibly strict measures? As much as I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, it misses the mark here.
 

Cal?

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What exactly does the "truth" mean to you in this instance? Because to me, the "truth" would be "you'll need to wear PPE and follow proper procedure for this to be effective"... and since people who arent' trained to do this won't, then saying it isn't effective is the truth.
See below, basically what I wanted to say
Another thing mentioned all the time. I mean, reading stuff, it seems that you might need a couple of PhDs to put a fecking mask on your face. I wonder how extensive training did Korea and China so that everyone can wear masks there. I assume, they stopped everything and put every citizen in a 5-year university degree called 'how to wear a mask'.
 

Revan

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I genuinely don't know, are they? Do we have sufficient raw materials do produce them on a daily basis, ensure they are delivered and implemented correctly (by giving the public the appropriate training)? Carolina posted the good article that you can clean disposable masks under some very specific set of circumstances, but to industrialise this process also has a timescale, and you also need the public to return their masks (many won't). If you factor all that in, it seems quite difficult rather than easy?
Considering that other countries, which are significantly less rich than the US seem to be able to do so, I guess so. Obviously, we cannot wake a day and say, 'ah, today we change the policy, let's make masks for everyone', but if the problem was looked seriously since January, then we would have been in a much better state. At the end of the day, it is a mask, not rocket science.

And of course, the masks sold for the general public do not need to be as good as those used by doctors (who are at a far higher risk). They do not need to offer 99% protection or close by. They just need to offer some protection and still be combined with social distancing to achieve a higher effect of mitigation. No one is saying, everyone wears a mask and then life goes on as usual.
 

Carolina Red

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I've yet to seen anyone saying wearing a masks incorrectly is worse than not wearing one at all, as long as you don't start licking it like @Revan pointed out.
Are you for real right now or at this point just shit posting?

Wearing it incorrectly is worse than not wearing it at all, because not only are you not doing jack shit to protect yourself, but you are also wasting a mask that could have been worn by a medical professional who will actually use it correctly.

And licking the mask... ha ha ha. Touching the mask, then touching something else or someone and now that thing or that person is contaminated. But yeah, funny joke.
 

Cal?

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Who says the mask thing is what worked for South Korea and China, as opposed to the other incredibly strict measures? As much as I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, it misses the mark here.
I don't think Korea ever implemented any measures any stricter than most of Europe right now.

As for China, I've no idea whatsoever with that one - have they actually contained it at 80k-ish? :confused:
 

JPRouve

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Agreed, but they're better off saying that, "Please don't hoard masks so that healthcare professionals can get them", rather than the stupid line of "they don't work, but the professionals need them".
Again it's not what people are telling you, masks usefulness is limited because they depend entirely on how someone acts in general. No one tells you that they don't "work", they simply have a limited usefulness that is greatly reduced by the actions of the person using them.

Sure. But wearing the mask further reduces the possibility of getting infected, and even more importantly, it reduces the possibility of you infecting others. It definitely does not put you even more at risk, unless you start licking the mask when you remove it.

Now, obviously, if it is between me and a doctor wearing a mask, of course, that the doctor should be prioritized. But masks are such an easy thing to be produced, and since January it was known that we will reach this stage. So countries should have been prepared to have masks for everyone.
As anyone suggested that using a mask increase the risks? I'm pretty sure that anyone with a bit of common sense simply said that the usefulness was limited for almost everyone. It's very useful if you have a cold or have Covid-19 though, in that case you should definitely wear one particularly inside.
 

0le

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I'm not saying medical professionals shouldn't be prioritized.

I've yet to seen anyone saying wearing a masks incorrectly is worse than not wearing one at all, as long as you don't start licking it like @Revan pointed out.

Also, how difficult is it to wear and dispose of one correctly? I'm sure any government can knock up a video in no time.
Wearing a surgical mask does little to prevent you from inhaling droplets. This means it could be worse than not wearing one at all if people change their behaviour because they start thinking they are "protected".

With regards to the secnd point honestly, it is relatively simple depending on the mask. A person can do all these things. People on the other hand don't listen, don't follow advice well or simple ignore it! :D
 

Revan

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Who says the mask thing is what worked for South Korea and China, as opposed to the other incredibly strict measures? As much as I enjoy a good bit of sarcasm, it misses the mark here.
Well, the equivalent of Fauci in South Korea said so. There should be an interview in this thread posted a couple of days ago.

South Korea actually had less strict measures than the US and most of Europe. They didn't have a lockdown at all. Probably comparable to the measures of Sweden/Holland, but combined with everyone wearing masks, massive checks on fever, and large-scale testing combined with individual quarantines and contact-tracing. They did not shut down the country, and yet, they have done a far better job than any Western countries. And if that doctor is to be believed, masks are the main difference.
 

Carolina Red

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I don't think Korea ever implemented any measures any stricter than most of Europe right now.
Right...

Emergency texts from the government alerting citizens of nearby cases of coronavirus infection. A government-mandated GPS-tracking app designed to monitor and punish people who break quarantine. Public government reports detailing the whereabouts of every single confirmed patient—down to which theater seat they sat in, which plastic surgery clinic they visited and even where they got their lingerie.

All these examples are part of a sweeping tracking infrastructure erected by the South Korean government to contain the largest coronavirus outbreak outside of mainland China.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/lessons-america-how-south-korean-authorities-used-law-fight-coronavirus
 

One Night Only

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Masks are pointless for the public in general, people just being idiots. You need to have a certain grade of mask, and then you need to know how to actually wear it. Wearing it and then taking it off with grubby hands and using it again later is absolutely a waste of time. Half the people take them off when talking, defeats the object.
 

Cal?

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Are you for real right now or at this point just shit posting?

Wearing it incorrectly is worse than not wearing it at all, because not only are you not doing jack shit to protect yourself, but you are also wasting a mask that could have been worn by a medical professional who will actually use it correctly.

And licking the mask... ha ha ha. Touching the mask, then touching something else or someone and now that thing or that person is contaminated. But yeah, funny joke.
Again, I've never questioned the fact that medical professional should be prioritized. But it shouldn't be that difficult to increase supply.

As for wearing it incorrectly being worse than not wearing one at all? Seriously?

What are the most obvious cases of masks being worn incorrectly?

1 The wrong side is facing in/out
2. It doesn't cover the nose

Not exactly difficult to educate people to do those 2 simple things right.