SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

golden_blunder

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do.ob

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There was a nurse yesterday who is a PRN (if necessary) ICU nurse who also works in cancer research who told my wife “if I’d known I was treating Covid patients I would have called out!”... my wife reminded her that they’re currently the Covid Ward and asked her what the hell she expected. That nurse called out today... her replacement is a nurse fresh out of school that doesn’t know how to run the medications that the ICU requires.
I guess the big question is can you blame her?! At least in Germany nurse is one of the standard examples when it comes to underpaid workers. In more extreme cases they actually lose money going to work vs staying home and collecting benefits and child support and now we want them to be our soldiers going to work expecting certain infection and a good chance of psychological damage. Soldiers at least have this in their job description when they sign up.
 

4bars

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They might live 10-15 years longer if they were completely healthy before the caught the virus. If they weren't, then Corona or Flu or frankly in some cases, perhaps even a really bad cold would have potentially had the same outcome.
But you will never know how long they would be living. Even as weak they might be.
 
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redshaw

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United Kingdom
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Will be interesting if Germany can keep the numbers low from here. They're better equipped and perhaps implementing measures roughly when other mainland countries did around them further on in the outbreak can help and have said from day 1 at least from the European perspective of large countries Germany can come out of this better.

If we look at the dates and numbers Germany have been quietly following just a few days behind, 100 deaths each, 3 days gap, ~600 deaths each 2-3 days gap, 1000 deaths each, 3 days in it, 1400 deaths each, 3 days. Things seemed calm in the UK with these small rates under 1400 deaths. If UK could have the same large scale testing I'm sure at Mar 30th it would be 100k cases. Germany simply might be on the path of UK and France but just with enormous testing. They certainly have the ICU capacity when the numbers get big and the virus reaches more older people so perhaps there they can break the path and the large testing can make more self isolate properly but so far the deaths has been inline with France/UK and their low testing..

I'm infinitely more impressed in how other Asian regions/countries have dealt with this on China's door step that have way more Chinese visitors than Italy. From Day 1 I've had Italy, Spain, France UK and Germany in this order in terms of outbreak tourism attraction and cultures.
 
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SteveJ

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Tweet said:
Last week my Dad (95) was asked twice by his practice coordinator if he wanted to sign a DNR. He refused and told her why. Within 48 hrs a letter signed by his GP arrived informing him the GP had overruled and signed on Dad's behalf. 48 hrs later Dad is a broken man. Given up.
 

Carolina Red

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Since my heart surgery I’m not allowed to use it or other anti-inflammatory meds. If needs be I am allowed to use plain paracetamol instead. So perhaps there’s a danger to cardiac patients?
In the case of an underlying condition like that, then yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. I'll see if I can get my wife to ask one of the doctors about it today or Tuesday.
 

Deery

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In the case of an underlying condition like that, then yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. I'll see if I can get my wife to ask one of the doctors about it today or Tuesday.
I think if you have diabetes too you are advised to take paracetamol instead of ibuprofen
 

Carolina Red

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I guess the big question is can you blame her?! At least in Germany nurse is one of the standard examples when it comes to underpaid workers. In more extreme cases they actually lose money going to work vs staying home and collecting benefits and child support and now we want them to be our soldiers going to work expecting certain infection and a good chance of psychological damage. Soldiers at least have this in their job description when they sign up.
The rest of the ICU staff is definitely blaming her.
 

SteveJ

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Not to sound heartless or callous in any way, but that doesn't surprise me. A person of that age... the process of resusitation is a brutal thing to do to the body.
I reacted strongly to the 'overruling' part but didn't (initially) consider every possible aspect of this particular case.
 

Carolina Red

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I think if you have diabetes too you are advised to take paracetamol instead of ibuprofen
Yes, because of the effect of diabetes on kidney function.

I'm responding to the question of "does ibuprofen make Covid worse", not "does ibuprofen make underlying conditions worse".
 

Penna

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@Tweet, that's shocking. Can you take that up with the practice manager on his behalf? Maybe you can lodge a letter signed by him saying that he wishes resus to be attempted in the event that it's required. I'm sorry, your dad shouldn't be over-ruled like that.

edit - just being old isn't a reason not to attempt to save a life.
 

Deery

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Yes, because of the effect of diabetes on kidney function.

I'm responding to the question of "does ibuprofen make Covid worse", not "does ibuprofen make underlying conditions worse".
Yeah, I know apparently ibuprofen creates an enzyme which the covid19 can bind to so if you have diabetes, heart problems it is not advised.
 

SteveJ

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@Tweet, that's shocking. Can you take that up with the practice manager on his behalf? Maybe you can lodge a letter signed by him saying that he wishes resus to be attempted in the event that it's required. I'm sorry, your dad shouldn't be over-ruled like that.

edit - just being old isn't a reason not to attempt to save a life.
Ah, I'm really sorry for the confusion I caused - that wasn't a tweet written by me but by someone on Twitter.
 

Cardboard elk

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Guessing you've seen the update on this @Cardboard elk ?

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/zGJ8gv/mindre-efterslapning-av-dodstalen-an-tidigare

Still not sure why some people want to play off country vs. country like it's the European hunger games. The ICU situation in Sweden still appears very stable, so it's uncertain if there is any need for tougher measures just yet, if ever. All countries are doing their best I'm sure, and Norway appear to be doing a cracking job so be pleased and proud. Norway appear to have protected their elderly incredibly well.
First time I see this. Good news. I read the news in a swedish newspaper, Expressen or Aftonbladet. I am not a person to do battles in forums Reg ;) I am worried about Sweden, because I have friends and family there, and I like Sweden.
Also, I have to admit, I am still concerned (!) I hear what you say about Sw/st.hlm and I hope you are correct. As you have said yourself, nobody has the answer yet, although myself, I believe in the Korean way with testing, search and isolate.

For Norway, we have not been that good at all aspects. But with the resources we have and the bad planning ahead, things have gone pretty well. But we still need to be able to test a LOT more to be able to open society. And there are still dark numbers here and too early too tell even with the positive development the last days.

I see they have developed a quick and cheap testing method in Sweden that is close to being ready. We have also developed our own methods that we are pushing to use, but there are other things you need as well that needs to be fabricated. I hope after Tegnell the chief epidemiolog had a meeting with Norway and Denmarks experts, that we start to cooperate. I think that if we cooperated, we could use each other strengths to the benefit of each nation.

At least we have paper factories and can print a lot of toilet paper if needed :)
 

Sarni

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I know we've officially got another week of lockdown in the UK but how long do we reckon it will go on for?

And how do we reckon it'll be lifted? All at once? Phased? If so how? What about shops and pubs etc?
We’ve been in lockdown here for 3 weeks. I am expecting slight relaxing of restrictions around June (restaurants will open for limited capacity, you will be allowed to exercise outside and gather with friends with certain limits e.g. 10 people) and then maybe by the end of year something more significant. Things like international travel, concert and sports with live audience I don’t expect to return this year.
 

Carolina Red

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Dancfc

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I know we've officially got another week of lockdown in the UK but how long do we reckon it will go on for?

And how do we reckon it'll be lifted? All at once? Phased? If so how? What about shops and pubs etc?
It will almost certainly be phased, probably so subtly that when things are back to "normal" it would have been done without us even realizing.
 

Ayush_reddevil

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Today for the first time I felt what the Italian medics have been talking about. This is just absolutely awful and the hospital staff are going to have massive mental health issues after this . People are dying left right and centre and they are dying so fast . We get lots of pneumonia and flu in the UK but hardly ever do patients go from no oxygen to maximum possible requirement within hours . UK is going to have thousands and thousands of deaths unfortunately
 

Penna

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Ah, I'm really sorry for the confusion I caused - that wasn't a tweet written by me but by someone on Twitter.
And there's me writing to Tweet ... :) Anyway, the law's not on his side, as the medics have the final say. But the patient's wish for resus to be attempted must be documented if he's been asked and has given his answer.
 

massi83

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First time I see this. Good news. I read the news in a swedish newspaper, Expressen or Aftonbladet. I am not a person to do battles in forums Reg ;) I am worried about Sweden, because I have friends and family there, and I like Sweden.
Also, I have to admit, I am still concerned (!) I hear what you say about Sw/st.hlm and I hope you are correct. As you have said yourself, nobody has the answer yet, although myself, I believe in the Korean way with testing, search and isolate.

For Norway, we have not been that good at all aspects. But with the resources we have and the bad planning ahead, things have gone pretty well. But we still need to be able to test a LOT more to be able to open society. And there are still dark numbers here and too early too tell even with the positive development the last days.

I see they have developed a quick and cheap testing method in Sweden that is close to being ready. We have also developed our own methods that we are pushing to use, but there are other things you need as well that needs to be fabricated. I hope after Tegnell the chief epidemiolog had a meeting with Norway and Denmarks experts, that we start to cooperate. I think that if we cooperated, we could use each other strengths to the benefit of each nation.

At least we have paper factories and can print a lot of toilet paper if needed :)
Thanks for including us. Consider the northern border closed from now on. :wenger:
 

do.ob

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The rest of the ICU staff is definitely blaming her.
Well I can understand and I won't blame those people who "did the right thing" for blaming those who made a different choice, but sitting on my ass at home I find it impossible to blame people who don't sacrifice themselves for a society that never valued them.
 

sullydnl

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@Tweet, that's shocking. Can you take that up with the practice manager on his behalf? Maybe you can lodge a letter signed by him saying that he wishes resus to be attempted in the event that it's required. I'm sorry, your dad shouldn't be over-ruled like that.

edit - just being old isn't a reason not to attempt to save a life.
Would the bold make a difference in practical terms?

I was under the impression that regardless of whether there's a DNR or not, a doctor isn't obliged to give treatment he does not believe is in the patient's interests? In which case the reality (I'd have thought) is that a 95 year old is unlikely to be put through that ordeal, even if he has indicated that he wants to be. Would the letter really carry that much weight?

I may be entirely wrong, mind.
 

Carolina Red

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Would the bold make a difference in practical terms?

I was under the impression that regardless of whether there's a DNR or not, a doctor isn't obliged to give treatment he does not believe is in the patient's interests? In which case the reality (I'd have thought) is that a 95 year old is unlikely to be put through that ordeal, even if he has indicated that he wants to be. Would the letter really carry that much weight?

I may be entirely wrong, mind.
From what I've been told, that's what happens here. Normally, it is the physician overruling the wishes of "family" that the person be resusitated.
 

Penna

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Would the bold make a difference in practical terms?

I was under the impression that regardless of whether there's a DNR or not, a doctor isn't obliged to give treatment he does not believe is in the patient's interests? In which case the reality (I'd have thought) is that a 95 year old is unlikely to be put through that ordeal, even if he has indicated that he wants to be. Would the letter really carry that much weight?

I may be entirely wrong, mind.
No, at the end of the day you're not wrong. But having asked him if he wants a DNR and him having clearly refused, that needs to be properly-documented. Depends what his overall health is like - some people still have good and interesting lives at 95 (my neighbour, for instance).
 

SteveJ

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Anyway, the law's not on his side, as the medics have the final say. But the patient's wish for resus to be attempted must be documented if he's been asked and has given his answer.
I'm just concerned that this behaviour is actually a policy which is being covered-up. Worried that people's right to life is being denied in a 'quiet', underhand manner. Obviously, I completely lack any relevant expertise, and I'm not claiming this is part of a cull...rather, I'm concerned about the longstanding trend of dismissing the elderly - and their wishes - as unimportant; apparently they're a hindrance to the rest of us, who are, of course, immortal...
 

Im red2

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I love Germany man, used to live in Minden, and if anyone was gonna make a “success” of this it was you guys, think everyone would have put their mortgage on that.

I still wonder how you have so many serious/critical yet so few daily deaths, are you doing something better than other health services? The UK aren’t overwhelmed yet and they are still losing a much higher rate of critically ill.

Unless the critically ill numbers on worldometers are just incorrect for Germany.
I live near Minden nice town.
 
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I believe in the Korean way with testing, search and isolate.
Me too, but they were early and the privacy laws here are so much stronger than Korea, we still can’t even use CCTV properly, not even to catch footy hooligans.

As for toilet paper, I used to work in Vestby and lived in Moss... think I prefer the smell of shit to smell of that place. Hahha
 

JPRouve

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France update:

- 1873 new cases.
- 357 new deaths among hospitalized patients; we are still updating the deaths that occured in nursing homes 161 have been added.
- 8079 total deaths. 5889 in hospitals and 2189 in nursing homes and other health structures.
- 140 more people in ICU.
 

2cents

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Ireland:


Deaths still not spiraling out of control here yet.
 

Penna

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I'm just concerned that this behaviour is actually a policy which is being covered-up. Worried that people's right to life is being denied in a 'quiet', underhand manner. Obviously, I completely lack any relevant expertise, and I'm not claiming this is part of a cull...rather, I'm concerned about the longstanding trend of dismissing the elderly - and their wishes - as unimportant; apparently they're a hindrance to the rest of us, who are, of course, immortal...
That's happened for many years, Steve, as you know. My mother died in 1994, she had a chronic heart problem but no other health issues (never smoked, didn't drink, not overweight) and at 65 years old she was deemed too ancient to be cared for in a cardiac unit. We took her home and she died within a few days. At 61 when she had her massive heart attack, she should have had a bypass done but it wasn't even considered.

Nowadays, that's changed - she'd get proper treatment, as she could have had surgery and recovered well and age isn't a reason to deny appropriate treatment. However, for the very old, things can still be hit or miss and that's definitely going to be the case with the current crisis.

Obviously, if you have a 90-year-old and a 50-year old both needing vents, all other things being equal you're going to give it to the 50-year-old. But often, things aren't equal, and the older person could be generally fitter than the younger one.
 

sullydnl

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In a context where the pandemic sees the health service overwhelmed, it's inevitable that the right to life of some will be at least undermined, isn't it?

Put bluntly, in a scenario where treatment capacity is overwhelmed doctors will be put in a position where they effectively have to knowingly allow some patients to die, not because they couldn't be saved but because there are other patients with a better chance of being saved. And those decisions will inevitably overwhelmingly favour the young over the old.

Leaving aside what the right official guidelines around this issue are or what the best way to communicate it is, the de facto reality is that the lives of elderly patients are likely to be assessed differently to the lives of younger patients as treatment is prioritised. And the worse the situation gets, the harsher and more reductive those judgement calls will be. Which is part of the horror facing the health service.
 

Cardboard elk

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Thanks for including us. Consider the northern border closed from now on. :wenger:
Hahaha, sorry, I have nothing against Finland :lol: It was just an example. You and Iceland as well - of course! Actually I had one heck of an experience including winter resort, tequila and various escapades the one time I visited Finland :D Actually one guy from Finland set me on fire with vodka+a lighter, but the rest was great :lol: (visit during military service in northern norway).