SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

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In a context where the pandemic sees the health service overwhelmed, it's inevitable that the right to life of some will be at least undermined, isn't it?

Put bluntly, in a scenario where treatment capacity is overwhelmed doctors will be put in a position where they effectively have to knowingly allow some patients to die, not because they couldn't be saved but because there are other patients with a better chance of being saved. And those decisions will inevitably overwhelmingly favour the young over the old.

Leaving aside what the right official guidelines around this issue are or what the best way to communicate it is, the de facto reality is that the lives of elderly patients are likely to be assessed differently to the lives of younger patients as treatment is prioritised. And the worse the situation gets, the harsher and more reductive those judgement calls will be. Which is part of the horror facing the health service.
Absolutely, that’s what happened in Spain and Italy and it’s horrific.

Are the UK already sending out DNR’s or is that online bullshit?
 

Ayush_reddevil

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As a Doctor who is having multiple such conversations a day with patients and relatives I can tell you that it is one of the hardest parts of my job . Resuscitation is not a nice thing though and if something happened to me then I would probably not want to be resuscitated myself
 

SteveJ

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That's happened for many years, Steve, as you know. My mother died in 1994, she had a chronic heart problem but no other health issues (never smoked, didn't drink, not overweight) and at 65 years old she was deemed too ancient to be cared for in a cardiac unit. We took her home and she died within a few days. At 61 when she had her massive heart attack, she should have had a bypass done but it wasn't even considered.

Nowadays, that's changed - she'd get proper treatment, as she could have had surgery and recovered well and age isn't a reason to deny appropriate treatment. However, for the very old, things can still be hit or miss and that's definitely going to be the case with the current crisis.

Obviously, if you have a 90-year-old and a 50-year old both needing vents, all other things being equal you're going to give it to the 50-year-old. But often, things aren't equal, and the older person could be generally fitter than the younger one.
Thanks for that post. :) Unfortunately, I don't actually have elderly relatives to be concerned about but feel very strongly about the subject.
 

LawCharltonBest

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Ok I’ve ignored all news for the weekend.

More positive news only please. I’ve heard Italy are looking past peak?
 

Dans

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Will be interesting if Germany can keep the numbers low from here. They're better equipped and perhaps implementing measures roughly when other mainland countries did around them further on in the outbreak can help and have said from day 1 at least from the European perspective of large countries Germany can come out of this better.

If we look at the dates and numbers Germany have been quietly following just a few days behind, 100 deaths each, 3 days gap, ~600 deaths each 2-3 days gap, 1000 deaths each, 3 days in it, 1400 deaths each, 3 days. Things seemed calm in the UK with these small rates under 1400 deaths. If UK could have the same large scale testing I'm sure at Mar 30th it would be 100k cases. Germany simply might be on the path of UK and France but just with enormous testing. They certainly have the ICU capacity when the numbers get big and the virus reaches more older people so perhaps there they can break the path and the large testing can make more self isolate properly but so far the deaths has been inline with France/UK and their low testing..

I'm infinitely more impressed in how other Asian regions/countries have dealt with this on China's door step that have way more Chinese visitors than Italy. From Day 1 I've had Italy, Spain, France UK and Germany in this order in terms of outbreak tourism attraction and cultures.
It's no wonder the cases are so much higher - double is crazy, but probably "normal" though.

The lockdown happened so much later in the UK - it's negligent on the part of the govt.

That Cheltenham took place (250k), the Liverpool Atletico took place (3k travelled from Europe's 2nd hotspot), Rangers vs Leverkusen, etc, in the week where it was going mad in Europe........it beggars belief.
 

17 Van der Gouw

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Get yer tits out, get yer tits out, get yer tits out for the lads.
You know what would really be uplifting to the nation?

She could cause rapturous laughter and applause throughout the land, if only she went with

"During this difficult time of emergency and challenge, it has never been more important for one to consider the great sacrifice made by those on the front lines of confronting this terrible affliction, therefore I offer only one piece of advice to you my subjects; stay the feck at home twats"
 

Dante

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You know what would really be uplifting to the nation?

She could cause rapturous laughter and applause throughout the land, if only she went with

"During this difficult time of emergency and challenge, it has never been more important for one to consider the great sacrifice made by those on the front lines of confronting this terrible affliction, therefore I offer only one piece of advice to you my subjects; stay the feck at home twats"
If the pandemic were renamed the Covid 19 Plague, you can bet that a hell of a lot more people would stay at home.
 

stu_1992

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Leo Varadkar has re-registered with the Medical Council for a GP/Caretaker Taoiseach combo role.

He'll be taking phone consults one day a week apparently.
A classy move I think. Coming off as much better than a lot of world leaders. I'm no big supporter usually, but it's good to see it.
 

Penna

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In a context where the pandemic sees the health service overwhelmed, it's inevitable that the right to life of some will be at least undermined, isn't it?

Put bluntly, in a scenario where treatment capacity is overwhelmed doctors will be put in a position where they effectively have to knowingly allow some patients to die, not because they couldn't be saved but because there are other patients with a better chance of being saved. And those decisions will inevitably overwhelmingly favour the young over the old.

Leaving aside what the right official guidelines around this issue are or what the best way to communicate it is, the de facto reality is that the lives of elderly patients are likely to be assessed differently to the lives of younger patients as treatment is prioritised. And the worse the situation gets, the harsher and more reductive those judgement calls will be. Which is part of the horror facing the health service.
It's a triage situation, really. It's like doctors on a battlefield - the worst casualties are left in favour of the ones with the best chance of survival, because resources have to be allocated where they can do the most good.
 

sullydnl

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Leo Varadkar has re-registered with the Medical Council for a GP/Caretaker Taoiseach combo role.

He'll be taking phone consults one day a week apparently.
Mixed (though I suppose ultimately positive) thoughts on that.

On the one hand, my immediate reaction is to recoil from such a PR friendly move from an extremely PR-conscious politician.

On the other hand, we've seen a SF senator rightly praised for re-registering so it would be rather unfair not to give due credit to Varadkar for doing similar. Plus in a situation where managing the collective mood of the country is important, there's very real value in seeing the leader of the country "play his part".
 

Cardboard elk

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Norway sends 20-25 doctors, nurses and staff to help out in Italy. Not much, but at least something is offered to help.
 

TMDaines

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I’m a bit confused here. Doesn’t the R0 of a virus mean the natural reproductive ability a virus has and the number of people one person can infect in one interaction? How does a lockdown change that, or any human intervention?

Lockdowns of course prevent more people getting infected, but if Covid-19 has a natural R0 of 2.5, I take a Covid-19 positive patient out on the street during the 3rd month of a complete lockdown with two non-infected people and the former coughs in front of the latter, surely chances are both will get it? It’s not like the Italian coronavirus is now weaker than the American or French coronavirus, surely?

I get the point of the paragraph in saying lockdowns help but I don’t understand how the R0 in one country can be different than in another. Am I missing something here?
People are confusing R0 with R.
 

sammsky1

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what the hell was the point of that message from the queen
What was wrong with it? I thought it was wise and profound.

One can dislike the monarchy and still agree with the Queen on what she just said.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Mixed (though I suppose ultimately positive) thoughts on that.

On the one hand, my immediate reaction is to recoil from such a PR friendly move from an extremely PR-conscious politician.

On the other hand, we've seen a SF senator rightly praised for re-registering so it would be rather unfair not to give due credit to Varadkar for doing similar. Plus in a situation where managing the collective mood of the country is important, there's very real value in seeing the leader of the country "play his part".
I’m going through the same process. Yesterday I had to nominate a “clinical referee” i.e. someone I worked with/for the last time I actually touched a patient. Which will involve trying to get in touch with people I haven’t seen for 20 years. At the end of this, I would very much like a half session a week doing telephone triage like our glorious leader but suspect I’ll be fecked off to the arse end of nowhere to dig out ingrown toenails, or burn warts off. I’m not bitter though. Oh no.

Actually, I‘m really not. Good on him.
 
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Sandikan

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Will lift morale, especially for the older generation struggling to cope.
Did you delete your original post?
I was trying to quote the "what's the point" and the "great message" from 2 different posters, and the second one had gone :lol:
 

sammsky1

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Mixed (though I suppose ultimately positive) thoughts on that.

On the one hand, my immediate reaction is to recoil from such a PR friendly move from an extremely PR-conscious politician.

On the other hand, we've seen a SF senator rightly praised for re-registering so it would be rather unfair not to give due credit to Varadkar for doing similar. Plus in a situation where managing the collective mood of the country is important, there's very real value in seeing the leader of the country "play his part".
Personally I think its great.

Either way, it's a fantastic way to enhance his empathy for what's going on, fortify his resolve and inspire his future decision making.
 

villain

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Will lift morale, especially for the older generation struggling to cope.
Older generation, fair.

What was wrong with it? I thought it was wise and profound.

One can dislike the monarchy and still agree with the Queen on what she just said.
What was wise and profound about it?



To encourage I guess. Thanks to NHS workers, and to understand that it will pass and things will return to normal.
Yeah I guess
 
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Pogue Mahone

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The comments I see below tweets like this one make me think the UK is properly fecked. Completely different attitude here in Ireland, where you’re much more likely to see people go to the opposite extreme. What the feck is wrong with you people? It’s almost as though the whole Brexit thing has made a lot of you wilfully contrary. It’s actually quite depressing. The UK used to be a bastion of sanity and common sense. Not any more.
 

Grinner

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what the hell was the point of that message from the queen

She's on a hiding to nothing. If she doesn't speak it'll be what the hell is the Quenn doing, if she does then half will be pissed off and half will be jingoistic.

Best to just let it go and worry about the real issues here.
 

Penna

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what the hell was the point of that message from the queen
Well, it's very rare that she speaks to the nation. When she does, it's an occasion and people recognise that things are serious. It's not so much what she says, the content is less important than the fact that she's said it.
 

Drawfull

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When Rooney is destroying senior politicians ffs.

Good from him, but the reporting of Hancock suggesting that footballers especially should do the right thing is wide of the mark. I don't need to google for people, but he was literally ASKED about footballers, and his reply was that they, as should ALL members of society do the right thing if they can. It was not a call out to footballers specifically, he was just responding to a question that was loaded towards them and he included them in his response.