Moussa Dembele (Lyon) - Take Him?

SAFMUTD

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How is he not established? He was a promising youngster when he was at Celtic where his goal return was outstanding. He got his move to a higher level and has continued his development with another impressive goal return. What more can he do before you would be willing to accept him as a "consolidated striker"? You paid roughly the same amount for Martial who was less proven, less established and had a vastly inferior goal return in the same league. Granted he was younger but even when you compare their stats at France U21 level it's clear that Dembele stands out. I'm not saying he's a better player than Martial, he isn't, but he's a better striker, it's an area you need to spend on, he fits the business model and what Ole is trying to build.

Don't get me wrong, I do think 60 million is an overpay but the transfer market is wild these days. Wan-Bissaka and Fred at 50 million were overpays. Maguire at 80 million was an overpay. That's what happens when teams have more money than sense and can slap silly valuations onto their players because they're comfortable enough financially not to ever be in a situation where they need to sell for anything less.

I find it astounding that people are suggesting they would prefer a striker that is 7 years older with a worse goal output. I can't get my head around that part.
We paid $36M for Martial with bonuses rising up to $58M, and as I said you pay that for either a consolidated striker or a promising youngster. Martial was a promising youngster.

Dembele is 24, and while his record in france is good its not good enough to warranty he'll make it in the premier league. I dont even mention his record in the scottish league because there's no point, and for less than $60M you could get other players such as Werner, who's younger and has played more seasons in a competitive league, Ben Yedder who is better than Dembele just some that came right now to my mind.

$60M is a lot of money, and I dont consider Dembele as a top prospect and the fact that the last big money attacking additions from ligue one have failed in the premier league, Lacazzete and Nicolas Pepe to Arsenal, Batshuayi to Chelsea, is also another point to consider.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I think the OP is either his mum or his agent.

we surely have other priorities than wasting €60m on this guy.

personally I think Sancho is our top target but will be a structured deal in instalments. No way we are spunking money this summer
In January, the priority was always No 10 (Bruno), striker & RW in order. If we lose Ighalo, that means we'll need to go back hunting the striker again. Dembele is linked with us right now and also since last summer when we lost Lukaku, I'm not just calling a random or unrealistic striker here. A new striker will be benefit to push Martial and also be rotation with Martial & Rashford which means we don't need to force them to play when they aren't 100% fit or have little injury like what we did on Rashford.

Just because you don't agree with my opinion that doesn't mean you can call someone like that. I think you'll need to accept that there will be different opinion.
 

Adam-Utd

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I like Dembele a lot. He has a similar style to Ighalo also. He's a proper striker with a great scoring record, but can link up well also.

my personal preference would be to keep Ighalo as a willing backup for a few years, but i'm not sure we will get a deal that works financially considering his age.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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You've responded to the argument (originally from @Rozay but shared by anyone with a bit of common sense) that buying Haaland effectively consigns Greenwood to the scrapheap, and your response was 'yes but Haaland might leave after two years'. So either you're happy to consign Greenwood to the scrapheap, or you think we should sign Haaland with the intention that he leaves after two seasons. That is indeed nonsense.
WTF are you talking about?

The poster point was that we shouldn't have Haland & Greenwood, he doesn't think we should bring in another striker the same age since it won't benefit Greenwood's development. I replied his post about we need to have a striker to challenge & push Martial if Ighalo leaves, and Greenwood can still get his game time on the right.

And he started talking about me not thinking about beyond 18 months. And I countered the argument by saying that we don't know what will happen in 18 months, players can still leave. The idea of signing young players are not just based on long term as regular player but also investment if player wants to leave in the future. If the deal & the contract don't match both of the condition, we will refuse like what we did on Haland. How can you call a reality that happened as non-sense?
 

Brightonian

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WTF are you talking about?
This:
Because you have not thought beyond 18 months. Basically, your plan is to sign Haaland and tell Greenwood to forget about be a striker and become a winger.
There is also potential that when we sign Haland or Dembele, they might not be here for long term, did you think about it when we had Ronaldo?

You countered his point that signing Haaland or Dembele will kill Greenwood's future here as a striker by saying that if we sign them, they might not be here long term. You do not sign a player of that calibre with the intention of letting them leave in a season or two so that Greenwood can be a regular starter. You just don't sign them. Or you sign them and accept that you're choosing them over Greenwood's career here.

I'm not sure how to be any clearer about this so if you still can't understand what I'm saying after this, let's just leave it there.
 

yo@Kirk

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Do the qualities Ole wants at the most advanced central attacking position matter in these decisions? He wanted Haaland enough to make a personal recruiting trip, so it would seem his qualities are the most admired for a long term fix at the position. Ole then praised Ighalo's overall play at the position so that would indicate Ole admires the qualities he brings to the position as well.
 

Luke1995

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Lyon has a history of playing hardball with the top european giants. No way they sell for us without inflating the price
 

BenitoSTARR

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I can remember a time when we had four top strikers and won things.
In a fluid front 3 system so it would be disingenuous to suggest they were just strikers other than Berbatov.

Rashford Martial Sancho Greenwood would be a young exciting forward line not of the standard of Rooney Tevez Ronaldo Berbatov but still flexible and very talented/promising

Edit: Or are you referring to Cole, Yorke, Sherringham and Solskjaer because if so it was 20+ years ago and we played two up front
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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This:





You countered his point that signing Haaland or Dembele will kill Greenwood's future here as a striker by saying that if we sign them, they might not be here long term. You do not sign a player of that calibre with the intention of letting them leave in a season or two so that Greenwood can be a regular starter. You just don't sign them. Or you sign them and accept that you're choosing them over Greenwood's career here.

I'm not sure how to be any clearer about this so if you still can't understand what I'm saying after this, let's just leave it there.
You are making things up. I never say we sign these players with intention of letting them go in a season or two.

What I said is that when we sign young players, we'll also need to consider the investment factor because we don't know if players will be here for long term which is why we rejected Haland term. What is non-sense about this when it actually happened?

And what about you read the whole post. I even mentioned to the poster that striker start their prime age at 25 or 26 and by the time Greenwood in a regular spot, both Dembele & Martial are on their 30. So clearly when you mentioned about "a season or two" actually makes your statement even more non-sense.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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And we played with two at a time.
You are missing his point. His point was that having good striker option on the bench and someone to challenge the main striker. If we let Ighalo go without a replacement then this is what our bench will look like in 2 seasons (assume if we sign Sancho)

Greenwood, Mata/Pereira, James, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
I would rather see: Striker, Greenwood, James, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
Or for next season I would rather see (assume we can't afford Sancho this summer): Striker, Greenwood, Mata, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
 

Brightonian

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And what about you read the whole post. I even mentioned to the poster that striker start their prime age at 25 or 26 and by the time Greenwood in a regular spot, both Dembele & Martial are on their 30. So clearly when you mentioned about "a season or two" actually makes your statement even more non-sense.
I already replied to that bit in an earlier post, didn't feel it needed repeating. Greenwood should not get regular playing time in his best position for the first time at the age of 25 or 26.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I already replied to that bit in an earlier post, didn't feel it needed repeating. Greenwood should not get regular playing time in his best position for the first time at the age of 25 or 26.
I also believe I had said this before to counter that argument of yours; that Greenwood is also one of the striker who can play on the right and still benefit from it for his experience & development. Players like Suarez, Henry & RVP were in the same case.
 

Rozay

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You are missing his point. His point was that having good striker option on the bench and someone to challenge the main striker. If we let Ighalo go without a replacement then this is what our bench will look like in 2 seasons (assume if we sign Sancho)

Greenwood, Mata/Pereira, James, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
I would rather see: Striker, Greenwood, James, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
Or for next season I would rather see (assume we can't afford Sancho this summer): Striker, Greenwood, Mata, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
It is an important distinction to make, given that the change in formation means we do not require 4 strikers.

Secondly, I have said from the beginning that I have no issue with us buying a striker. I have an issue with that striker being of the wrong profile to compliment our squad make up.
 

Ralph1386

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So he scores goals in a weak league. I just am not convinced he’s worth the money touted
To be fair the whole "weak league" argument doesn't always work. Hazard and Drogba scored goals at the same "weak league" and we just bought Bruno Fernandes from another "weak league".

But I agree that 60M is too much. 30M is more realistic.
 

Brightonian

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I also believe I had said this before to counter that argument of yours; that Greenwood is also one of the striker who can play on the right and still benefit from it for his experience & development. Players like Suarez, Henry & RVP were in the same case.
The only one of those three players who resembles Greenwood is RVP, whose career was limited precisely because he was never able to play regularly in his best position, centre-forward. He only actually showed how good he was for two seasons out of his entire career. Injuries contributed hugely to that but so did constantly being shunted out onto the wing.

Greenwood should not just be getting 'experience and development' until he is 25 or 26, 7 or 8 years from now. We are talking about one of the most promising teenage footballers in the world, and our third highest scorer this season, scoring goals at a faster rate than Martial even. You want to feck his development like that just in order to have a Spurs-level signing like Dembele, who won't even play enough because Martial is still going to be first choice?

We should ideally get in another central striker, yes. But Ighalo, or someone like him - someone to be third choice behind Greenwood, not to shunt him out onto the wing.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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The only one of those three players who resembles Greenwood is RVP, whose career was limited precisely because he was never able to play regularly in his best position, centre-forward. He only actually showed how good he was for two seasons out of his entire career. Injuries contributed hugely to that but so did constantly being shunted out onto the wing.

Greenwood should not just be getting 'experience and development' until he is 25 or 26, 7 or 8 years from now. We are talking about one of the most promising teenage footballers in the world, and our third highest scorer this season, scoring goals at a faster rate than Martial even. You want to feck his development like that just in order to have a Spurs-level signing like Dembele, who won't even play enough because Martial is still going to be first choice?

We should ideally get in another central striker, yes. But Ighalo, or someone like him - someone to be third choice behind Greenwood, not to shunt him out onto the wing.
I believed I already made the same point as well about Ighalo on the poster, which clearly you missed it. We signed Ighalo in January as a punt because we lost our target Haland and we needed a striker, the window was about to closed at that time, we had no choice but went to the someone like Ighalo, Rondon & King. It's just now Ighalo turns up to be doing well doesn't mean the same thing will apply on the others. We can consider to sign someone like Rondon if we have world class striker like Harry Kane who is likely to play regular without being rotated.

This is basically just agree and disagree, however that doesn't mean someone like golden_blunder can call me Dembele's mom/agent or how you call it non-sense just because you disagree on mine. People always have different opinion. I understand a different opinion can also means one makes sense while the other doesn't make any sense. However, different opinion can also mean two opinion that has sense on it.

My argument is about how you called mine as non-sense when clearly it's not true because a manager with license like Ole had the same idea when he wanted to sign Haland. And I had stated reasons of it and countered each of your argument.
 

Rozay

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The only one of those three players who resembles Greenwood is RVP, whose career was limited precisely because he was never able to play regularly in his best position, centre-forward. He only actually showed how good he was for two seasons out of his entire career. Injuries contributed hugely to that but so did constantly being shunted out onto the wing.

Greenwood should not just be getting 'experience and development' until he is 25 or 26, 7 or 8 years from now. We are talking about one of the most promising teenage footballers in the world, and our third highest scorer this season, scoring goals at a faster rate than Martial even. You want to feck his development like that just in order to have a Spurs-level signing like Dembele, who won't even play enough because Martial is still going to be first choice?

We should ideally get in another central striker, yes. But Ighalo, or someone like him - someone to be third choice behind Greenwood, not to shunt him out onto the wing.
It appears that the real underlying issue here is more a distrust or not rating of Martial coming to think of it. An Ighalo only works for you if you are happy to let Martial play the majority of games now. I am one of the people who is happy enough for that to happen, but wanting a better profile than Ighalo suggests a disagreement in needing a back-up.

For me, Martial, Ighalo, Greenwood is a perfect trio. It has a clear senior striker, cover and a long-term succession plan in the form of one of the world’s best young strikers. The only reason you would need to bring in a striker that costs £60m+ is if you don’t trust either the first or third of those options. If the issue is with the middle one, then a signing of £20m-odd will do.
 

Slysi17

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Lyon has a history of playing hardball with the top european giants. No way they sell for us without inflating the price
I don't agree with that. I would of agreed if it was pre covid19. But Lyon simply can't sell at an inflated price. For once the giant clubs are in a good position. Ligue 1 has been canceled which means lost revenue from TV Broadcast money and lost revenue from not being able to have fans in the stadium. Also they have no European football at all next season. However I don't think there will be any European football next season. I imagine Lyon will take a hit on how much they sell him for.
 
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SweetRightFoot

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He's more of a replacement for Ighalo.

I like him though, he get's on the end of things as well as having tricks up his sleeve. He's not an improvement on Martial though and not really needed since Greenwood is knocking/barging through the door.
 

SambaBoy

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We shouldn't be looking to sign Ighalo. £20m and probably a 2-3 year contract isn't good business from any aspect. We should try to extend his loan for another season and if an agreement can't be reached then it's the end of the road for him at United and we move on to other targets.

I do believe we need another striker as well as RW. Competition is good for places and all I'm seeing on here is it will stunt the progress of Martial/Greenwood. People forget that this isn't FIFA. Players get injured, fatigued, suspended, suit certain games, fall out of form. You need a deep squad these days.

You also have to bare in mind that Martial is probably our 2nd choice LW. If Rashford is out, he will most likely play there. Rashford was going to be out for 3/4 months this season, I would not have been massively confident with reaching our goals with Ighalo leading the line. Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Dembele, James and Sancho would be ideal for the forward positions moving forward.
 

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For a backup he’s the wrong profile of player. 60m is simply too much.
 

Luke1995

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I don't agree with that. I would of agreed if it was pre covid19. But Lyon simply can't sell at an inflated price. For once the giant clubs are in a good position. Ligue 1 has been canceled which means lost revenue from TV Broadcast money and lost revenue from not being able to have fans in the stadium. Also they have no European football at all next season. However I don't think there will be any European football next season. I imagine Lyon will take a hit on how much they sell him for.
What about the money Lyon makes with selling shirts and other products ? Don't these help with financial stability ? I know not as much as matchday revenue or television deals but it must mean something
 

yo@Kirk

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Greenwood has scored 1 goal with no assists in 361 minutes of Premier League and Europa League play at CF/Striker in the 2019/20 season. He's scored 8 goals with 2 assists in 621 minutes of PL and EL play at RW/Right Forward in the 19/20 season. Since he's played CF/Striker instead of RW/Right Forward before this season, these numbers would indicate he has a great natural ability to play the RW/Right Forward position in Ole's attack. If he learned to play the position, that great natural ability could be amplified into a top class RW/Right Forward. I hope he gets at least 600' on the right side in the last 9 matches to see how much he contributes to the attack with hard coaching and consistent playing time at the position.
 

Slysi17

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What about the money Lyon makes with selling shirts and other products ? Don't these help with financial stability ? I know not as much as matchday revenue or television deals but it must mean something
Well it means something but you have to remember the transfer market is a totally different environment now due to covid19. You honestly can't think the upcoming transfer window will be the same as previous ones. Clubs chief executives including Ed Woodward have stated this. I think he is a clown but what he says is correct. Also the cancellation of the ligue 1 is massive. How can you not think that would have a significant financial impact on all French clubs excluding PSG. I excluded PSG as the country of Qatar owns them so won't have nearly much of an impact
 

tenpoless

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For me We either buy a young world class talent capable of competing with both Martial and Rashford, and even coming ahead of them
or
buy an older striker for the experience and as a backup without the need to develop him further thus giving a lot of space for Martial and Rashford

Dembele is neither of those.
 

Judas

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For me We either buy a young world class talent capable of competing with both Martial and Rashford, and even coming ahead of them
or
buy an older striker for the experience and as a backup without the need to develop him further thus giving a lot of space for Martial and Rashford

Dembele is neither of those.
Yep this is my view completely. Whacking an inflated fee on someone of Dembele's calibre and profile makes so little sense. I don't buy it at all.
 

RkkMan

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And Greenwood lacks the ability to hold the ball at this moment. He scored more goals this season from the right side because he's getting more space in that position.

You might want to check the reality that we might not be able to afford Sancho this summer. This is not going to be a long term position, the right side at this moment is perfect for Greenwood to build more experience and confidence by playing more games time.
Key word "at the moment" he is still developing physically once he gains the skill set of hold up play and a bit more muscle he will very likely be switched back to the middle where he will be closer to the box and more capable of dealing with physical CBs. Mason isn`t a Bale/Salah/Mahrez/Nicolas Pepe type of attacker more of an RVP/RVN, Ole himself said Greenwood will be a complete No9 in future not winger. Even Henry had all the attributes to be a wide forward but eventually switched to a no9 when he was fully developed.
We will have to wait for more concrete information we can`t afford Sancho before jumping into negative conclusions. Woodward himself has come out and said Utd will still remain active in the market despite the ongoing crisis.
 

Mylock

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Dembele transfer fee should be no more than £30m, Lyon are a selling club and all transfer fees are going to be reduced. I'm not sure if he's what we need. Ingalo on loan or someone of similar quality would be ideal as Greenwood will the automatic no 9 within the next year or so.
 

Hawks2008

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Let's put it this way. Signing him is also pushing Martial to keep performing which also means improving our starting 11.
That's what Ighalo was brought in for, any future striker signings should be to upgrade our current options in that position.
 

Champagne Football

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There's no way we have a spare 60 million left over if we buy Bellingham and Sancho for 150 million. I don't think he's worth the money Lyon want for him.

Odsonne Edouard is a far more realistic target.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Nothing more than 30m. There's no point spending anything more for a striker putting up similar stats to Martial in the French league
 

Garethw

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We need to forget about Ighalo. Ok, he’s had a few good games for us, but he’s 31 years old and would be a huge financial risk.

If he’s being offered £400k a week by the Chinese then he’d be looking at a minimum of half that to stay with us.

There’s very few players of that age that I’d want to hand a multi year contract to on those kind of terms, and certainly not one that has been pretty mediocre for most of his career in the PL.

You don’t turn down the opportunity to sign a top player because you’ve got Martial. If we can get Haaland, we should do it.

I remember a lot of fans (Not on here) not wanting to sign Rooney because we’d recently bought Smith. That wouldn’t have turned out too well if they’d had there way would it.

Oa side note, Dembele is not worth £60 fecking million.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Sure. Or we could sign a right winger for our vacant right wing position instead of Moussa Dembele and not change our entire system for some reason.
RW will be the priority as it’s the only glaring hole in our side at the moment when everyone is fit. I don’t think signing Dembele would change our whole system but the fee would be a big issue if it in anyway compromising our ability to sign a first team winger.

You are missing his point. His point was that having good striker option on the bench and someone to challenge the main striker. If we let Ighalo go without a replacement then this is what our bench will look like in 2 seasons (assume if we sign Sancho)

Greenwood, Mata/Pereira, James, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
I would rather see: Striker, Greenwood, James, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
Or for next season I would rather see (assume we can't afford Sancho this summer): Striker, Greenwood, Mata, CM/DM, FB, CB, GK.
I don’t think anyone missed the point. We had 4 top strikers for 2 positions.

We have one position for central striker now and two wide forward/ winger positions.

Martial Rashford Sancho first 3
Ighalo James Greenwood second 3 is absolutely fine and Ighalo has worked really well with our players when asked. He’s a known quantity and does exactly what is asked of him.

Take Sancho out and replace him with Dembele and you then have

Martial Rashford Greenwood
Dembele James Mata?

I know which one is much prefer to be focussing our efforts on.

The issue isn’t really the player it’s the fee. If Dembele was gettable for £30m it might be worth a gamble but for £60m I’d be looking at Jonathan David, Haaland, Werner, Martinez someone who looks either already really good or that they could be something special soon.

I don’t see what else Dembele is going to be able to do in terms of physical maturity and technique he may improve the mental side of the game but that is far from certain

We also have Greenwood who is arguably as big a potential talent as any and I’d rather give him more games this season and see how he copes and I think in our current setup with Sancho he’d get a good mix of wide forward and central strik

We need to forget about Ighalo. Ok, he’s had a few good games for us, but he’s 31 years old and would be a huge financial risk.

If he’s being offered £400k a week by the Chinese then he’d be looking at a minimum of half that to stay with us.

There’s very few players of that age that I’d want to hand a multi year contract to on those kind of terms, and certainly not one that has been pretty mediocre for most of his career in the PL.

You don’t turn down the opportunity to sign a top player because you’ve got Martial. If we can get Haaland, we should do it.

I remember a lot of fans (Not on here) not wanting to sign Rooney because we’d recently bought Smith. That wouldn’t have turned out too well if they’d had there way would it.

Oa side note, Dembele is not worth £60 fecking million.
Ighalo isn’t worth £20m or whatever the reported figure is I agree and that would be a risk. But he is a known quantity and has done well in his time at the club so less of a risk than Dembele. He’s older but that’s not a bad thing as we don’t have an experienced striker who will do the dirty work of holding up play etc.

He would not be looking at even close to 200k a week everyone including him knows that.

I think more likely we’ll look for someone like Ighalo. A bit more experienced but £20m ish fee max. Or use a loan. It doesn’t have to be Ighalo but £60m on just a good striker doesn’t sit right. Half the fee and I’d be all for it but do you class Dembele as a top player?

Also the Rooney comparison isn’t fair. A really exciting promising young English talent who was proving his worth in the PL against top sides and scoring great goals is nothing like the situation with Dembele who isn’t as young, isn’t as promising, isn’t doing it in PL and isn’t English (I only reference this as it counts towards homegrown and British players tend to stay longer at British clubs that has no bearing on ability)


There's no way we have a spare 60 million left over if we buy Bellingham and Sancho for 150 million. I don't think he's worth the money Lyon want for him.

Odsonne Edouard is a far more realistic target.
I forgot about Bellingham too who is a very big risk but equally is very promising and again I’d prefer those kind of funds be directed towards that kind of potential over a know arguably slightly above average quantity like Dembele.

Edouard for £20m is a decent shout but he’s very similar to Dembele in terms of criticisms I’d have if the fee were much higher.