Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.

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He is pretty good, but it’s hard to tell if he’s as good as often made out. Need to see him in a different team really.
And that's a good point. He's always been decent. But with Klopp he's now great. Should Klopp leave he'll probably be decent (not less) again. I've not been a fan of his in the past but for the role Klopp wants him to play I don't think I could replace him with anybody (barring the usual Mbappe, Messi, Ronaldo, etc, obviously). Suarez, Martial, Auba, etc, would make our wonderful, amazing team lesser in his position.
 

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His appreciation of the game, link up play , touch and passing are all world class - there's very few players better than him at that and that's why he deserves the recognition he gets.

However where I slightly agree with the OP is that I believe that for example someone like Lewandowski or Aguero - you could put them in any team in the league and they will still score goals and significantly improve that side whilst a Firminho would be more of a luxury for say a Villa who need their forwards to put the ball into the net. In other words I think he's a fantastic player but I think he needs other players around him to work which IMO makes him just outside the top bracket in terms of the very best.
 

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If they sign Werner and drop Firmino back into a pure attacking midfield role for more of a 4231 than a 433, they could revert back to that early 2017/18 high-pressing, fast-paced football with Coutinho in the hole but would probably sacrifice a lot of defensive stability.
Personally I don't see it. However good Coutinho's form was, it was clearly a blessing (was it even in disguise?) for them when Barca came for him. Klopp has a very clear vision of what football does he want to play, and having Coutinho there actually restricted him — he was way too talented to ignore him, but it took a lot from the way he wanted them to play. I doubt that Werner's coming (which, sadly, seems quite likely) would mean that all 4 of them are going to play together, especially since this system proved to be so successful. Liverpool were quite lucky with injuries and periods of bad form when their front three were concerned and you can't bet on it happening every season. Origi had done quite well, but he doesn't look like a good stylistic replacement for any of those three — and Klopp had been trying to create a contingency plan for ages now (I think both Oxlade/Lallana were unsuccessfully tried in Firmino's role, Shakiri & Minamino were signed as a back up, but neither had been quite convincing).
 

kaiser1

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Firmino is overrated. Before his goal vs Atletico, I heard he hasn't scored at Anfield since April 2019. For a striker, that's atrocious You can only get away with that when you have wingers who score
If you have wingers like Willian and Hazard who are creators first before scorers, Then you would curse out at Firmino regularly

Klopp's style makes everyone look great even Matip looked like the 2nd coming of Maldini before his injury, Heck Klopp made Groskreutz, Blasyzkwski, Schmelzer into CL finalists
 

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He performs his specific role in that Liverpool side brilliantly and is perfectly suited to it. In a more general sense of course there are better players than him, but in football there isn't really such a thing as 'in a general sense'. It's all about doing the job your team needs you to do.

There are much better forwards in the league. But in my opinion there's only one who could swap into that role in that Liverpool side and do a better job, and that's Aguero.
 

Untd55

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Nope. Got 27 goals and 17 assists in 17/18 when Liverpool played more attacking football, showing he can put up better stats. Liverpool became more conservative so he and Salah score less. Goalscoring is focused on the wings at Liverpool.

Firmino is more like an attacking midfielder played in the striker role.
 

Rozay

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He is absolutely vital to this setup.



He did play for Hoffenheim..

Why the duck am I going in about this twat? Sorry he is a absolute mess of a player...
That video plays like Neville’s silent domination analysis on Rooney. Half of those clips were reaching to me. The first one about him ‘dragging Jorginho away so that Mané can run free’ is nonsense to me. Jorginho isn’t a right back. Mané runs free because the RB is nowhere to be seen. Jorginho is left with two men. There was another similar Jorginho clip. He’s not occupying him so that his strike partners can receive the ball. He’s just taking up a position he should be occupying, as a 9/10 in the team.

Ultimately, he’s not a rubbish player, he’s just not that great. That video, and others like it, would not suffice to justify his place in the team if Liverpool were 5th best. ‘Hea he makes nice touches and stuff but we need to see more’ would be the consensus. That is basically what the same experts say of Martial, who does all the same things, except chase right backs as often as Firmino. Because we aren’t winning, which to me, is the basis of the difference in how they are rated.

He’s an alright player, but Liverpool would not be better off with him than a better striker. I imagine a better player, by virtue of being stood in the front line, would also ‘occupy defenders attention’. Liverpool would swap him for the Suarez that left them in an instant. He’s a good player, just not the very top tier. Same goes for their midfielders, one of whom they want to give player of the year to. Credit to Klopp, he has built an effective unit, but not all of their players are very top players. Firmino isn’t as good as Kane or Son, for example, and Spurs, while already being rubbish, would be a worse side if they swapped either of them for Bobby no goals. United would be no better if we swapped him for Martial. City would be worse if they swapped him for Aguero. All of those teams would be better if they took Mané or Salah instead though. And Liverpool would far more easily replace him out of the three of them.
 

Tel074

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For me he is like Berbatov with us . He has great ability but he doesn't score enough for him to ever be remembered as a truly great forward .
 

criticalanalysis

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He's a very good player but if Liverpool had a creative midfied or played through the middle more, Firminio's role would be redundant.

They need his qualities of link up play because they don't have the system or players to play direct into the forward position. As others have alluded to, if it was a Benzema/Lewandowski or Aguero in the forward position, we would talking about how Salah is too greedy and the midfield is not giving them enough chances.

I personally think if we are able to return to a normal 2021-2022 season, Liverpool will struggle to continue their dominant results and performances. It's already shown in the tail end of this current season but it's the beginning of the end of a cycle. They need massive investment of 2-3 world class players, namely being at least a centre mid, a striker and a wide player. The current front three are imo at their limits in terms of efficiency and productivity. Klopp's done a phonemonal job and to be fair, Liverpool has spent when they've needed but like Poch at Spurs, there's a limit to how much the coaching can stretch squad players and squeeze the maximum output. If you rest on your laurels and don't invest from a position of strength, you'll only be side-stepping whilst everyone else is looking over your shoulder.

It also depends on their mentality. If they win the league and 'expect' to be dominant again and the favourites without spending big, it won't be pretty. However, having said that, outside of the Manchester clubs, no one else is in a strong enough position to challenge.
 

paraguayo

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The amount of people saying Martial is better. Ok then..
 

TwoSheds

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His appreciation of the game, link up play , touch and passing are all world class - there's very few players better than him at that and that's why he deserves the recognition he gets.

However where I slightly agree with the OP is that I believe that for example someone like Lewandowski or Aguero - you could put them in any team in the league and they will still score goals and significantly improve that side whilst a Firminho would be more of a luxury for say a Villa who need their forwards to put the ball into the net. In other words I think he's a fantastic player but I think he needs other players around him to work which IMO makes him just outside the top bracket in terms of the very best.
Did you just say his passing is world class? Alright then.
 

adexkola

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That video plays like Neville’s silent domination analysis on Rooney. Half of those clips were reaching to me. The first one about him ‘dragging Jorginho away so that Mané can run free’ is nonsense to me. Jorginho isn’t a right back. Mané runs free because the RB is nowhere to be seen. Jorginho is left with two men. There was another similar Jorginho clip. He’s not occupying him so that his strike partners can receive the ball. He’s just taking up a position he should be occupying, as a 9/10 in the team.

Ultimately, he’s not a rubbish player, he’s just not that great. That video, and others like it, would not suffice to justify his place in the team if Liverpool were 5th best. ‘Hea he makes nice touches and stuff but we need to see more’ would be the consensus. That is basically what the same experts say of Martial, who does all the same things, except chase right backs as often as Firmino. Because we aren’t winning, which to me, is the basis of the difference in how they are rated.

He’s an alright player, but Liverpool would not be better off with him than a better striker. I imagine a better player, by virtue of being stood in the front line, would also ‘occupy defenders attention’. Liverpool would swap him for the Suarez that left them in an instant. He’s a good player, just not the very top tier. Same goes for their midfielders, one of whom they want to give player of the year to. Credit to Klopp, he has built an effective unit, but not all of their players are very top players. Firmino isn’t as good as Kane or Son, for example, and Spurs, while already being rubbish, would be a worse side if they swapped either of them for Bobby no goals. United would be no better if we swapped him for Martial. City would be worse if they swapped him for Aguero. All of those teams would be better if they took Mané or Salah instead though. And Liverpool would far more easily replace him out of the three of them.
I think Firmino works in Liverpool's setup because of the workmanship nature of Liverpool's starting midfield... If you replaced him with Aguero for example, keeping everything else the same, I think you'd see Liverpool's top level decrease. Salah and Mane are the finishers and primary avenues of attacm... Firmino is the lynchpin that links midfield with attack. With a conventional striker something would have to change... Salah/Mane would have to become more like Sterling/Sane for example.

Ok now hear me out... Imagine replacing Firmino with Totti. Now that would just be cheating, as Totti is a level above Firmino in terms of being the link man, being an actual striker, and being suave
 

adexkola

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He performs his specific role in that Liverpool side brilliantly and is perfectly suited to it. In a more general sense of course there are better players than him, but in football there isn't really such a thing as 'in a general sense'. It's all about doing the job your team needs you to do.

There are much better forwards in the league. But in my opinion there's only one who could swap into that role in that Liverpool side and do a better job, and that's Aguero.
Aguero is world class but (and Liverpool fans feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) he'd be a square peg in this Liverpool side unless significant tweaks were made. He and Pep were at loggerheads until he accepted the need to do slightly more for the team.
 

Bebestation

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Playing Mane and Salah with a striker like Kane or Jimenez between them wont work.

Sure the stats may be great individually, but as a team they wont be hard to play against because they wont gel well - you focus on stopping any sort of creativity coming from midfield or wingback areas and that's it.

The ability for Kane to get Mane and Salah in to play - like really, over Firmino the false 9? Why? Liverpool won the CL and are top of the PL nearly went the whole league invincible - like come on.

Liverpool play a 235 attacking formation, to play such a formation is literally impossible without the movement of the wing backs, the inside forwards and Liverpool's case the false 9 who centrally allows all the space around him with width on either side.

It's the same with city but the 235 is with inverted full backs, wingers and CAM's playing trying to get in to half spaces creating chances for a centralised striker like aguero.

For me Liverpool's false 9 tactic is more simple, symmetrically and deadly from both sides than City.

Aubemayang has lined up as a LF this season because he scores better than a CF - doesnt mean he isnt a striker or a forward. The real forwards are Mane, Salah, Rashford, Greenwood- not Firmino.
 

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Offensively, he is overrated.

The defensive work he does and the cynical tactical fouling he does, however, is underrated. He's a key part of Klopp's gegenpressing/ tactical fouling system.
 

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Did you just say his passing is world class? Alright then.
In hindsight I probably should have said vision. Firminho has a fantastic football brain - he sees passes that others don't see and that allows Liverpool to open up the game and break on you quickly , or keep possession before playing the final killer pass. He's not going to ping the ball 30 yards and try a lot of hollywood passes but for me personally the more impressive part of passing is seeing the ones others can't see and executing them which he does impeccably.
 

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There are more..

He is absolutely vital to this setup.



He did play for Hoffenheim..

Why the duck am I going in about this twat? Sorry he is a absolute mess of a player...

Never really understood the point of these videos. Could make a video of any random game, pick a player and create a narrative based off of a few clips.



Firmino is a very key player for Liverpool but he is overrated. He would struggle in a lot of top sides in my opinion because he doesn't offer that much in terms of goal scoring. His Anfield record this season is nothing short of a disgrace. The same applies to Henderson in my opinion. Both good players, benefiting massively from a system that is absolutely perfect for them. They may be absolutely vital to Liverpools system but it does not mean that they aren't overrated.

Which other top side does he get in to? He wouldn't start for City, Bayern, Barca or PSG.
 

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He’s a good player but his presence in their current forward “trilogy” instantly rules out any debate with Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez...Messi, Suarez, Neymar etc. He is nowhere near as good as Mane and Salah for me.
 

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He’s a good player but his presence in their current forward “trilogy” instantly rules out any debate with Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez...Messi, Suarez, Neymar etc. He is nowhere near as good as Mane and Salah for me.

I think the issue comes from people not being able to differentiate between as good and as important. He may be as important as though two players but he isn't as good.
 

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He became from being underrated to being massively overrated. But then you can say that about most of current liverpool players. Yes they are good but the way their fans and media spin their PR is frustrating.
 

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People talk about his record at Anfield but Rooney went 5 months without scoring at Old Trafford in 2007/08 and Torres didn’t score his first Anfield goal of the season in 2008/09 until February. This can happen to top top players who are in no way overrated.
 

paraguayo

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People talk about his record at Anfield but Rooney went 5 months without scoring at Old Trafford in 2007/08 and Torres didn’t score his first Anfield goal of the season in 2008/09 until February. This can happen to top top players who are in no way overrated.
Its completely stupid. His stats are 11 goals and 12 assists. Why does it matter if he gets them in Anfield, Britannia or Mars. If anything its more valuable to show up away from home
 

Infordin

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A very good footballer but not a very good goalscorer.

Apparently he was an attacking midfielder at Hoffenheim, makes sense because he plays like one even when he lines up as a forward.

He’s a slightly less talented but more hardworking version of Berbatov.
 

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He's not world class. That's it.

The role he played and the system Klopp used at Pool makes him more standout, bringing out the best of his whole abilities. Normally, top sides would want a consistent goalscorer in the leading CF/striker role but that system is somewhat different -- Salah and Mane are the real "strikers" in that setup. On paper, he's a CF but actually no. Simplicity sake, just labelled him as false/supporting CF that drops way deep playing like a b2b central attacking midfielder. Their system won't work well nor normally if he's missing. No like for like backup atm.
 

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This one I can agree with.

He's far from a crap player. But He is overrated since people seem to think He's the only striker who could do link up plays and droping deep. A role like this is easier than being a stiker where the team actually expect you to score goals. His role is also made easier by having Salah and Mane.

Place Eriksen, Pogba and even Zlatan in his role and They will do much better. Plus They will score more goals.
 
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Rozay

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I think Firmino works in Liverpool's setup because of the workmanship nature of Liverpool's starting midfield... If you replaced him with Aguero for example, keeping everything else the same, I think you'd see Liverpool's top level decrease. Salah and Mane are the finishers and primary avenues of attacm... Firmino is the lynchpin that links midfield with attack. With a conventional striker something would have to change... Salah/Mane would have to become more like Sterling/Sane for example.

Ok now hear me out... Imagine replacing Firmino with Totti. Now that would just be cheating, as Totti is a level above Firmino in terms of being the link man, being an actual striker, and being suave
Pep tried that ‘replace Aguero with a better team player’ nonsense with Jesus but has always had to turn back to Aguero to keep bailing him out. Aguero won’t do what Firmino does, agreed though.

Agree about Totti though. And Aguero is a unique example too as he’s world class and does feck all else. Just about any other top striker with a decent touch would be better than Bobby No Goals though. Bobby Lewandowski is a different type of striker but would be a massive upgrade for example. Gabriel Jesus is not a great striker and would be just as useful I think.
 

njred

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This one I can agree with.

He's far from a crap player.

Place Eriksen, Pogba and even Zlatan in his role and They will do much better. Plus They will score more goals.
Goodness. I think Pogba would be shipped out by Klopp within a month. You have to work hard at Liverpool. What is going in this thread. Overrated, Martial, and now the biggest bust in the Prem( Pogba). Christ
 

tenpoless

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Goodness. I think Pogba would be shipped out by Klopp within a month. You have to work hard at Liverpool. What is going in this thread. Overrated, Martial, and now the biggest bust in the Prem( Pogba). Christ
Cliche. No sane manager would let Pogba go within a month. You'd be creaming your pants if you had Pogba in that team.
 

njred

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Cliche. No sane manager would let Pogba go within a month. You'd be creaming your pants if you had Pogba in that team.
Maybe a few weeks. He’s a team killer. His agent alone would put him on a path away from LFC. But this isn’t about the damage done to united. It’s about underating Bobby F who is vital to our attack.
 

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It's not about individual players. It's about the team performance. would you rather have a team that scores 100 goals where your #9 only scores 10 or a team that scores 80 goals and a #9 who scores 25?
 

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I think he's more valuable to Liverpool than any team would pay for him

He just fits their system so perfectly, so he probably is overrated but still a very good player
 

tenpoless

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Maybe a few weeks. He’s a team killer. His agent alone would put him on a path away from LFC. But this isn’t about the damage done to united. It’s about underating Bobby F who is vital to our attack.
If you underrate an overrated player it is okay. Firmino is overrated, if you put a quality attacking midfielder in his role They will do as good or much better than him, if you put a striker like Zlatan, Van Persie, even Griezmann They will do twice as good. The false number 9 role like the name suggests, is fake, that means Firmino is a shit striker. You can't rely on him to score goals.

But in the case of him, for some reason people see him as the only striker who could play like a midfielder since the age of ancient Egypt. This is why He is overrated. All He does is dropping deep to empty spaces, receive a pass and play the ball to the other free players ahead of him. But what happens when He drops deep? the defender follow him. But in YouTube videos this is marked as "See? Firmino is a genius He draws the defenders out with his movements and now Mane and Salah are running on the flanks". Thanks captain obvious, would have never noticed it.
 

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Anyone who pays any attention to my posts will know I 100% subscribe to this view. Absolute con artist.

I mean, he’s alright, but not even close to being the level of player he’s made out to be.
Our most important player. Not VVD, it's Firmino. Without him, our whole attack is toothless most of the time.

Not to mention his defensive contributions. His pressing is probably best in the world for an attacking player.

Klopp's whole ideology starts with Firmino. He's his ultimate wet dream. It would be the same for Pep.
 

Bondi77

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Good player in a very good team.
If he was not deserving of his place than Klopp would not have him there.
 

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I think he is decently rated.

The best false 9 in the world? probably. Not many can do what he can, supporting the wide forwards.

Liverpool set up that way, suits him really well. If he comes to United he won't have any use for us, as we prefer our CF to score goals.