Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.

TheReligion

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Great player for Liverpool. One of the best foreign imports brought to the PL. His defensive style is unique and suits the smart defensive way Liverpool play now that they can manage games. Liverpool have morphed away from the all attack all the time play into a smart winning team and he is a huge part of it with his relentless style of play.
The type of player Sir Alex would have brought into united
One of the best foreign imports ever? Feck off. Jari Litmanen had more about him.

I've already explained to @RedSky and @hasanejaz88 why he's not a Fergie player. He's neither here nor there as a forward. Tevez was the closest United have had and we decided not to buy him and went for Berbatov instead.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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He is a top 10 player in the league for the last few seasons. Do people rate him more than that?
 

Righteous Steps

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nowhere near one of the top foreign imports. He’s a good player, nothing special, and particularly if we start looking back at the entire PL.

CANT see how he’s the type of forward SAF would have bought, considering I can’t remember a single player he bought like him in 26 years. Tevez was perhaps similar, and I would not consider him to be world class, and he was a much better player than Firminho.

I find liverpool fans amusing, they have a great team at the moment, but it still doesn’t stop them overrating their players.
Cantona was more similar to him than Tevez, no?
 

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You’re right. Setting fire to a tactical system that’s taken years to recruit and train for, may give better results.

Seems a little bit easier to just keep the high performing player and carry on smashing the sh1t out of teams though no?
Depends on if Klopp thinks he can upgrade. He was reluctant in letting Coutinho go, but was able to make up for it fairly easily.

But in general yeah he probably wouldn't want to mess with the synergy.
 

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One of the best foreign imports ever? Feck off. Jari Litmanen had more about him.

I've already explained to @RedSky and @hasanejaz88 why he's not a Fergie player. He's neither here nor there as a forward. Tevez was the closest United have had and we decided not to buy him and went for Berbatov instead.
We already had Berbatov at the club. There were many reasons as far as I know why we didnt sign Tevez but his quality was never a problem. It was more his ambition and greed from memory.

You can agree to disagree, personally I think Firmino is excellent and under rated by most on the caf.
 

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He's just Ji-Sung Park though according to Rozay
 

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To be fair, what a player should be good at partly depends on the system they play in.

And intangibles are a thing, it's why Muller gives many fans aneurysms. Elite teams with non conventional systems will always have space for these players.
Mullers contributions are easy to see, he is currently on 16 league assists and needs 5 more to break the assists record
 

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He is a top 10 player in the league for the last few seasons. Do people rate him more than that?
I doubt. In Liverpool, I won't even name him as one of their best 5 players

Yes, the guy who broke the PL goalscoring record is a fraud.
That was an odd comment to make. Of the Liverpool front 3, Firmino is the least important
 

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Mullers contributions are easy to see, he is currently on 16 league assists and needs 5 more to break the assists record
Historically (on the Caf at least) Muller's unique skillset has been underrated (not by me I think he's had a fantastic career and has been WC at several points of it)
 

RobinLFC

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That was an odd comment to make. Of the Liverpool front 3, Firmino is the least important
A lazy comment based on nothing but stats, probably. None of our front three are indispensable, it's the system that works. But he's an integral part to that system and thanks to his unique skill set, would be harder to replace than either Mane or Salah.

He was a 1 in 3 goalscorer for Hoffenheim, and he's a 1 in 3 goalscorer for us, doing exactly everything we bought him for but doing it at a much higher level for a number of years now.
 

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A lazy comment based on nothing but stats, probably. None of our front three are indispensable, it's the system that works. But he's an integral part to that system and thanks to his unique skill set, would be harder to replace than either Mane or Salah.

He was a 1 in 3 goalscorer for Hoffenheim, and he's a 1 in 3 goalscorer for us, doing exactly everything we bought him for but doing it at a much higher level for a number of years now.
If the system works and there are a lot of better players than him for that system, in his role, the hype makes him overrated.
And it would definitely be harder to replace Mane and Salah, both whom I don't consider overrated. You think it'd be easier to replace Salah? are you out of your mind? A lazy comment based on nothing but stats, probably.
 

RobinLFC

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If the system works and there are a lot of better players than him for that system, in his role, the hype makes him overrated.
And it would definitely be harder to replace Mane and Salah, both whom I don't consider overrated. You think it'd be easier to replace Salah? are you out of your mind? A lazy comment based on nothing but stats, probably.
:lol: If it was based on stats I'd argue it would be harder to replace Salah since his stats are better, wouldn't I? Great attempt at a dig anyway.

I'd be interested to know which players you think are better than Firmino for our system, because you won't find that many - and the ones you'll bring up will no doubt be considered world class.

"It's just the system" is also a lazy comment by the way. It's both the system and the players, you need top players to execute a top system. Ronaldo wouldn't score 60 goals a season at Burnley but no one trots out the "it's the team he plays in" argument since his class is apparent, same goes for several of our players. If you don't agree about Firmino that's fine but it's not just the system that makes our players look good, 8 of our starting 11 would walk into any other PL team.
 

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I'd be interested to know which players you think are better than Firmino for our system, because you won't find that many - and the ones you'll bring up will no doubt be considered world class.
No Salah less goals. No Mane less goals. With Bobby no goals.

Well, do you consider Firmino world class? if you do then I should bring up world class players.
 

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No Salah less goals. No Mane less goals. With Bobby no goals.

Well, do you consider Firmino world class?
With no link player, less goals for both.

He's the perfect foil for both of them, they know the space he occupies and the ground he covers. There's a reason why they're heading for a record breaking season.
 

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With no link player, less goals for both.

He's the perfect foil for both of them, they know the space he occupies and the ground he covers. There's a reason why they're heading for a record breaking season.
Yes but I was replying to "Firmino is harder to replace than Mane and Salah". I think They are more important than Firmino and their replacements would cost a lot more money. Which, again, is another proof of Firmino being overrated.

Imagine saying replacing Salah is easier than Firmino. Like.. come on now.
 

RobinLFC

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Yes but I was replying to "Firmino is harder to replace than Mane and Salah". I think They are more important than Firmino and their replacements would cost a lot more money. Which, again, is another proof of Firmino being overrated.

Imagine saying replacing Salah is easier than Firmino. Like.. come on now.
An opinion commonly shared among Liverpool fans, so it's definitely debatable at least.

I consider Firmino one of the best in the world at what he does and brings to the team by the way, yes. If you'd ask me to name the best 5 strikers in the world, he wouldn't be a part of that list. The likes of Kane probably would but I'd never ever have him in our team ahead of Firmino. So in that sense, it's more that Firmino perfectly fits our system rather than the system makes him look good.
 

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I didn't think Firmino was one of the most overrated but from reading this thread it's clear many do overrate him with some saying he's one of the best PL imports ever. Crazy stuff.
 

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I didn't think Firmino was one of the most overrated but from reading this thread it's clear many do overrate him with some saying he's one of the best PL imports ever. Crazy stuff.
Players are rarely "properly" rated, since most don't follow them that closely a lot of context is missed and most will either overrate or underrate them. It's true for almost all players.
 

TheReligion

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Players are rarely "properly" rated, since most don't follow them that closely a lot of context is missed and most will either overrate or underrate them. It's true for almost all players.
I'd agree. I've just seen some ridiculous comments though, like placing him in the same bracket as Henry, Bergkamp, Ronaldo, Cantona, Zola etc. They really baffle me.
 

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Imagine saying replacing Salah is easier than Firmino. Like.. come on now.
There are more goal scoring wingers like Salah than there are players like Firmino.

VVD is easier to replace than Robertson or TAA. Not because he’s not any good, but there are lots of centre backs in football, but few, if any, full backs That could instantly do what those two do.

It’s not about ability, it’s about uniqueness.
 

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:lol: If it was based on stats I'd argue it would be harder to replace Salah since his stats are better, wouldn't I? Great attempt at a dig anyway.

I'd be interested to know which players you think are better than Firmino for our system, because you won't find that many - and the ones you'll bring up will no doubt be considered world class.

"It's just the system" is also a lazy comment by the way. It's both the system and the players, you need top players to execute a top system. Ronaldo wouldn't score 60 goals a season at Burnley but no one trots out the "it's the team he plays in" argument since his class is apparent, same goes for several of our players. If you don't agree about Firmino that's fine but it's not just the system that makes our players look good, 8 of our starting 11 would walk into any other PL team.
8 of your players wouldn't start for us. I think it would be a fairly 50/50 split.
 

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There are more goal scoring wingers like Salah than there are players like Firmino.

VVD is easier to replace than Robertson or TAA. Not because he’s not any good, but there are lots of centre backs in football, but few, if any, full backs That could instantly do what those two do.

It’s not about ability, it’s about uniqueness.
But you can't disregard ability like that. There aren't many goalscoring wingers with Salah's output. And there aren't many CB's of VVD quality.
 

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If people were asked who is the best false 9 in the world - it would be Messi and then Firmino, Messi hasnt even played there regularly in ages.

Hes the current best or the second best in a particular position. How is he overrated?
 

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But you can't disregard ability like that. There aren't many goalscoring wingers with Salah's output. And there aren't many CB's of VVD quality.
I didn’t disregard it. At all. I was making a salient point.

I do however think that there are easily 10 players that would cost less than Salah, that could score a similar volume.

There are almost no players that could replace Firmino in that system. That doesn’t elevate him at all. It just makes him valuable to that system.
 

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There are almost no players that could replace Firmino in that system.
This.
Finding similar player for the specific role is too difficult, can't think of any name.

But I wouldn't get too worried, Klopp could just simply change the system slightly to use a CAM instead with Mane and Salah as the two forwards. That CAM will feed Mane and Salah. Then again, both Mane and Salah are also capable in creating their own chances. Firmino merely made their performances better/smoother. Alternative is to use different system with Mane back to winger but it may affects his goals stat.
 

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I didn’t disregard it. At all. I was making a salient point.

I do however think that there are easily 10 players that would cost less than Salah, that could score a similar volume.

There are almost no players that could replace Firmino in that system.
That doesn’t elevate him at all. It just makes him valuable to that system.
I actually see a handful of players that could replace him in that system and reach similar or superior outputs while contributing as much defensively, at least Griezmann, Lacazette, Fékir, Lautaro Martinez and Son Heung Min.
 

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I actually see a handful of players that could replace him in that system and reach similar or superior outputs while contributing as much defensively, at least Griezmann, Lacazette, Fékir, Lautaro Martinez and Son Heung Min.
Some bizarre names there. Son basically never passes the ball. Lautaro? Can't think of two more different players to what Firmino does

Firmino is historical assist leader of Liverpool behind Gerrard. He's a #10, he plays at that role and has been a #10 in Hoffenheim. Its not hard to understand he's there for link up creativity. Lacazette, really?
 

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If people were asked who is the best false 9 in the world - it would be Messi and then Firmino, Messi hasnt even played there regularly in ages.

Hes the current best or the second best in a particular position. How is he overrated?
Based on this thread, I dont think many would.
 

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Some bizarre names there. Son basically never passes the ball. Lautaro?

Firmino is historical assist leader of Liverpool behind Gerrard. He's a #10, he plays at that role and has been a #10 in Hoffenheim. Its not hard to understand he's there for midfield creativirty. Lacazette, really?
That's your opinion but the reality is that he doesn't actually have an exceptional amount of assists in particular if as you are suggesting he is a #10 in their system. What makes him special for Liverpool is the entire package the fact that his stats are reasonable but that he also contributes a lot defensively, otherwise his stats per minutes are similar to Lacazette in the PL. Last season Lacazette had 13 goals and 10 assists in 2500 minutes which is comparable to Firmino's best seasons with 15 goals and 7 assists in 17/18 and 11 goals and 10 assists in 16/17.

The question then become, would Lacazette perform better or worse next to Mané, Salah, Robertson and TAA and would he contribute enough defensively? I would say that he would be a lot more prolific than Firmino in both goals and assists and would contribute defensively to a decent standard. If you think that it's bizarre than fair enough.
 

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I didn’t disregard it. At all. I was making a salient point.

I do however think that there are easily 10 players that would cost less than Salah, that could score a similar volume.
But I wouldn't get too worried, Klopp could just simply change the system slightly to use a CAM instead with Mane and Salah as the two forwards. That CAM will feed Mane and Salah. Then again, both Mane and Salah are also capable in creating their own chances.
The bolded part is also how I see it. I feel like in the case of Firmino, you don't even have to replace him with a like for like player to make the team work. A player like Salah is much more valuable because He could decide the outcome of the match alone, the X factor that most players don't have even if They try their best. His quality is easier to measure. I bet He costs more expensive in the market than Firmino as well and that speaks a lot.
There are almost no players that could replace Firmino in that system. That doesn’t elevate him at all. It just makes him valuable to that system.
If you put it strictly like that, where False number 9's are the only candidates that could replace Firmino, of course there will always be the shortage in the numbers. Why? because only a few teams actually use it. The role is created through experimenting with players so We didn't know if there are more players that could excel in such a role. Has there ever been a player who started their career as a False 9? I'm genuinely curious. Messi wasn't a False 9, Firmino wasn't a False 9. So because of this, We can't be sure if Firmino is actually the only player that can do well in this position for Liverpool. Sure, there are traits that 'make sense' for players to have to be a False number 9. But still, it's all about experimenting. You can experiment with AM/WF/SS/CF.

You can be sure 100% if forwards like Depay are much worse than Salah. But you can't be sure if Son was put in Firmino's position, He will do worse. You can't be sure if Griezmann was put in Firmino's position, He will do worse. You can't be sure if Eriksen was put in Firmino's positon, He will do worse. Nobody knew if Fabregas could be the False 9 in the EURO 2012 winning team.

I feel like Di Maria is a good comparison for this. When He left Real Madrid, He was the only world class player who could play like He did (does this sound familiar?). An attacking midfielder/winger with good work rate, that was also quick as feck, had a wicked cross and capable of beating his defender. Was his best position a winger or a midfielder? nobody cared, everybody was mentioning how Real Madrid made a huge mistake and lost their engine, one who was more important than Ronaldo, Bale, Modric, etc. Guess what? He was replaceable. In the case of Ronaldo however, once He left the team, the impact was huge. And Salah is the equivalent of Ronaldo in this Liverpool team. Not by productivity measure alone but He's the X factor in that team and also Mane, to a lesser degree. Only after them could We start talking about Firmino.
 
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RobinLFC

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The bolded part is also how I see it. I feel like in the case of Firmino, you don't even have to replace him with a like for like player to make the team work. A player like Salah is much more valuable because He could decide the outcome of the match alone, the X factor that most players don't have even if They try their best. His quality is easier to measure. I bet He costs more expensive in the market than Firmino as well and that speaks a lot.

If you put it strictly like that, where False number 9's are the only candidates that could replace Firmino, of course there will always be the shortage in the numbers. Why? because only a few teams actually use it. The role is created through experimenting with players so We didn't know if there are more players that could excel in such a role. Has there ever been a player who started their career as a False 9? I'm genuinely curious. Messi wasn't a False 9, Firmino wasn't a False 9. So because of this, We can't be sure if Firmino is actually the only player that can do well in this position for Liverpool. Sure, there are traits that 'make sense' for players to have to be a False number 9. But still, it's all about experimenting. You can experiment with AM/WF/SS/CF.

You can be sure 100% if forwards like Depay are much worse than Salah. But you can't be sure if Son was put in Firmino's position, He will do worse. You can't be sure if Griezmann was put in Firmino's position, He will do worse. You can't be sure if Eriksen was put in Firmino's positon, He will do worse. Nobody knew if Fabregas could be the False 9 in the EURO 2021 winning team.

I feel like Di Maria is a good comparison for this. When He left Real Madrid, He was the only world class player who could play like He did (does this sound familiar?). An attacking midfielder/winger with good work rate, that is also quick as feck, had a wicked cross and capable of beating his defender. Was his best position a winger or a midfielder? nobody cared, everybody was mentioning how Real Madrid made a huge mistake and lost their engine, one who was more important than Ronaldo, Bale, Modric, etc. Guess what? He was replaceable. In the case of Ronaldo however, once He left the team, he impact was huge. And Salah is the equivalent of Ronaldo in this Liverpool team. Not by productivity measure alone but He's the X factor in that team and also Mane, to a lesser degree. Only after them could We start talking about Firmino.
One of the best in the world during his time at Madrid, glad we got that out of the way as a good comparison for Firmino then...
 

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One of the best in the world during his time at Madrid, glad we got that out of the way as a good comparison for Firmino then...
It's to point out He was replaceable, even if He was world class. It's not a player to player comparison but the role He played was unique. Because the poster mentioned about how unique Firmino is and He thinks it's hard to replace him.