8 minutes and 46 seconds kneel

[Web of Bissaka]

Before the game starts I assume. Easily doable.

 

[TwoSheds]

Thing is, a lot of people here seem to think they're American. They consume so much of the culture, they think because they share the language we're the same country. We're not. I have no issue with players if they want to use their reach to do things. You're right that many awful things happen every day in the world, it would feel as if this was a tribute to the most publicised current issue. That doesn't sit brilliantly with me. I think the family need to grieve for this awful tragedy, my heart goes out to them, and the US needs to sort itself out, as there is endemic racism in areas and systems which needs to be expunged.

I don't disagree that their culture is imposed on us wherever we look and normally I'm inclined to resist it. I'll happily make an exception for this case though, it's not about one man being murdered any more, it's about an uprising against the systematic repression of the poor and powerless in a huge country that, like it or not, exports all its bullshit straight to us. What happens there affects us and we need to oppose it just as much as they do.

Like I said before, I wish footballers were allowed and encouraged to protest anything that's significant to them within reason. If Mo Salah wants to take a stand against Israeli oppression for example then he should have room to do that, as long as he's doing it in a respectful way and not just perpetuating more stereotyping and racism.

 

[SilentWitness]

I teach English for a living and have an English degree, I do plenty of reading thank you, I read and teach effective reading for a living. Very clearly an 8 minute 46 second kneel is a direct reference to a single incident in the US recently, and the idea of kneeling for that amount of time did not exist before that incident.

Why does it matter though? The fact is that this incident has cause people for the first time in a while to actually give a shit and use their voice. We can sit and talk about how these things should have happened years and years ago or should not have to happen at all because society would be equal in utopia but it isn't, so we have to make the most of the window that has now been presented with that tragic incident and I do not see why you wish to take issue with that. A tragic incident has become a catalyst for (hopefully) long term change and movement in terms of racism and you want to be negative towards that? I don't understand why someone would wish to do that.

 

[fps]

I don't disagree that their culture is imposed on us wherever we look and normally I'm inclined to resist it. I'll happily make an exception for this case though, it's not about one man being murdered any more, it's about an uprising against the systematic repression of the poor and powerless in a huge country that, like it or not, exports all its bullshit straight to us. What happens there affects us and we need to oppose it just as much as they do.

Like I said before, I wish footballers were allowed and encouraged to protest anything that's significant to them within reason. If Mo Salah wants to take a stand against Israeli oppression for example then he should have room to do that, as long as he's doing it in a respectful way and not just perpetuating more stereotyping and racism.

I agree and I have no issue with footballers drawing attention to issues which impact them. I think their backgrounds help with bringing wider cultural understanding to the game and the crowds.

I don't think trying to get a whole crowd to kneel is a good way to protest something, it's culturally very alien. A silence of some kind may work well, we are good at silences. I don't believe it should be for a specific incident in the media, I worry we care too much about those things which hit the headlines, then move to the next thing as a culture. Kick It Out should be involved and what should be endlessly reiterated is the key, key message - not that the US police have serious work to do to fix their systems and that the US has terrible white on black racism issues, but simply that racism in all its forms will not be tolerated. That to me is the message, not an incident-based approach as this 8 minute 46 second kneeling seems to suggest, but a constant restating of the general, total anti-racism message.

I worry too that commemorating an individual awful event, as an 8 minute 46 second kneeling would do, gives too many people a pass when it comes to the smaller everyday racism which is one of the key bread and butters which must be combatted in order ultimately to overcome the issue. The person who sees racism as the murder of a black man in the US (even though it obviously is) may not recognise the severe damage of the words they use in their own everyday lives. Putting everything, from this tragic event to online abuse, all under the same banner - racism - seems to me the most effective way to get people to understand that none of it is acceptable. Marking this individual event doesn't really do that, from what I can see, it is swaying to the media. Because, sadly, this isn't the first black person who's been murdered by US police, and they won't be the last. That should feed into the anti-racism message of British sport. But it shouldn't be the message.

 

[pratyush_utd]

So footballers are now going to kneel for every tragedy? Will be a long time before we start playing.

It's funny how everyone is so concerned about one black person in America while millions in Africa are suffering daily and nobody cares. Modern day slavery is well and alive in Libya and it hardly get any news time or protest marches.

 

[Lynty]

What the feck. It's because you share the same problem called racism, not because you share a fecking language.

I think you should go away from the forum for a bit and do some reading. The kneeling is being suggested because there is a huge racism problem in society, not just in the US but all around the world. Are you also conveniently forgetting the amount of incidents we have had this season concerning racism? i.e Chelsea fans on Sterling, the England game, Spurs vs Chelsea, Ian Wright receiving racist messages etc. There are too many to name.

He's right in a sense.

There's nothing wrong with players kneeling in support. But it could set a dangerous precedent. Where do you draw the line? Why is kneeling for 8.46 considered worthy, yet we turn a blind eye on the Khashoggi murder and the atrocities that Saudi royal family support (including racism in the middle east) and there are no on field protests against Bin Salman's proposed takeover of Newcastle?

Players are not politically nuanced enough to navigate this without guidance. If players "protesting" becomes the norm, "non-protest" can be regarded as acceptance/compliance . I'd much rather Kick It Out, EPL and the FA use this opportunity, whilst there's media attention on race relations, to remind people that racism isn't tolerated, detail subtle examples of racism in football and how it is going to be tackled in the sport.

Saying that, if players wish to kneel during a celebration etc that's their personal choice. But I don't think it should be an organised event which forces everyone into pausing the game, how about if a player doesn't wish to kneel for 8.46, they want to continue play and score a goal? The back lash would be unjust.

 

[RUCK4444]

Wrong place to bring up your political agenda, this is a football forum concerning Manchester United. As others have mentioned above, terrible and even worse stuff happen every single day all over the world - not all is covered by the media in this way. If you want to change things, go into politics and do it the hard way. Footballers in England taking a stance changes absolutely nothing.

Choosing whether to use football to oppose racism is an opinion that doesn’t belong on a football forum? On a thread that poses that very question? Pipe down lad.

I tell you what changes nothing... doing nothing.

This is a major event, it has all the hallmarks for a turning point. Pick a side mate, I think you already have.

 

[cyberman]

Keep politics out of football. Its all fun and games until we shame footballers into doing it or when certain footballers want to express support to a cause that the public doesn't agree with.
McClean has entered the chat

 

[VP89]

He's right in a sense.

There's nothing wrong with players kneeling in support. But it could set a dangerous precedent. Where do you draw the line? Why is kneeling for 8.46 considered worthy, yet we turn a blind eye on the Khashoggi murder and the atrocities that Saudi royal family support (including racism in the middle east) and there are no on field protests against Bin Salman's proposed takeover of Newcastle?

Players are not politically nuanced enough to navigate this without guidance. If players "protesting" becomes the norm, "non-protest" can be regarded as acceptance/compliance . I'd much rather Kick It Out, EPL and the FA use this opportunity, whilst there's media attention on race relations, to remind people that racism isn't tolerated, detail subtle examples of racism in football and how it is going to be tackled in the sport.

Saying that, if players wish to kneel during a celebration etc that's their personal choice. But I don't think it should be an organised event which forces everyone into pausing the game, how about if a player doesn't wish to kneel for 8.46, they want to continue play and score a goal? The back lash would be unjust.

And therein lies the problem. Material oppression is there in many forms, and it's tough to pick and choose what we fight for.

However my view is that it shouldn't be binary (as in, we can't just say we endorse no protests or we endorse all protests). Taking on a corrupt Royal is a different beast to changing the flaws in a democratic justice system. The latter should be more possible if we take a stand.

 

[RUCK4444]

So footballers are now going to kneel for every tragedy? Will be a long time before we start playing.

It's funny how everyone is so concerned about one black person in America while millions in Africa are suffering daily and nobody cares. Modern day slavery is well and alive in Libya and it hardly get any news time or protest marches.

Ironic. It’s not for one black person, THATS THE POINT.

For people to take a stand, and not just black people, it obviously needs to come after a major event.

It’s to affect to bigger picture of racism, not this single incident in isolation.

I thought that much would be feckin obvious really, but apparently not on the caf.

Feckin embarrassing in here at times, think I’m gunna give this place a wide berth for a while tbh.

 

[Spaghetti]

Is there any proof that it was racism? Is it racists to assume is was racism?

American cops kill far more white people than black people. Maybe this cop was just a complete cock and not a complete racist cock?

 

[pacifictheme]

What happened to that fella was a shame & disgrace. But terrible things happen every day all over the world.

Imo sport should stick with sport & not make political statements regardless of how well intended they are. I go to football to forget about life for a few hours.

Individuals within sport can lend their support outside of the game & any right minded person would support them in doing that.

Just my 2 cents

Do you think equality is or should be a political issue? Is it not a basic right everyone should enjoy?

 

[Deery]

Is there any proof that it was racism? Is it racists to assume is was racism?

American cops kill far more white people than black people. Maybe this cop was just a complete cock and not a complete racist cock?

Oh, for feck sake’s!

 

[fps]

Ironic. It’s not for one black person, THATS THE POINT.

For people to take a stand, and not just black people, it obviously needs to come after a major event.

It’s to affect to bigger picture of racism, not this single incident in isolation.

I thought that much would be feckin obvious really, but apparently not on the caf.

Feckin embarrassing in here at times, think I’m gunna give this place a wide berth for a while tbh.

I disagree, I think it should be a systematic year round thing so the message is simply said again and again regardless of what particular racist event is in the media at that time, because racism is always going on, in many forms, not just when it hits the headlines. It should just be "Oh, it's 3rd September in the stadium, and by the way here's an anti-racism talking heads and racism is still never acceptable." "Here we are in February, title race is hotting up, oh and by the way here's an anti-racism flag and silence, and racism is still never acceptable."

 

[Stacks]

What happened to that fella was a shame & disgrace. But terrible things happen every day all over the world.

Imo sport should stick with sport & not make political statements regardless of how well intended they are. I go to football to forget about life for a few hours.

Individuals within sport can lend their support outside of the game & any right minded person would support them in doing that.

Just my 2 cents

Totally agree. To the people saying 8 minutes is too long, that’s the feckin point, it is to long to kneel on somebodies neck!

America need shaming, racism is alive in the UK but it’s just a feckin free for all over there.

Time to let them know that they don’t set the tone with acts like this. It cannot be accepted and forgotten and the world is watching.

People should use the 8 minutes to imagine how disgustingly frightening it would be to have the life slowly drained from you.

why stop with America? The footballers have plenty of countries they can shame for racism and discrimination, police brutality, in many cases far worse.

do you feel they should make a stand for all incidents or just American ones?

"Shut up and dribble". I'm so tired of attitudes like this. Footballers have massive platforms with millions looking up to them, and they should use them to raise awareness for important issues like this, especially when it's so easy to find hateful attitudes from football fans (just look at a facebook comments section). I know I won't change the attitudes of some on here, but there is nothing inherently political about basic human rights. I find often that those that want to equate human rights to politics want an excuse to be blinkered and cry about needing a 'safe space' from any discussion about them, instead of confronting difficult realities about their own privilege and the racism that seeps into every crevasse of society. As an American/European in a city currently experiencing mass protests and with a deep history pertaining to the civil rights movement, this issue is particularly salient to me so I'm sure I'll have stronger opinions than most on a United forum. And while racial divisions are disgustingly and deeply engrained in the fabric of American culture more than anywhere else I've seen, I've heard many clueless attitudes from Europeans who ignore the racist and imperialist histories of their own countries - don't act like systemic racism is only a problem in the U.S. By the way, football has always been intertwined with politics whether you like it or not.

I don't think they'll take a knee for that long during actual matches, but I would love to see it pre-match, and hope television stations would show it if that was the case. All power to them however they choose to express their solidarity and protest - this is much deeper than sport

I feel you however there are many incidents happening in the world right now inked to race and discrimination which are rarely jumped on by footballers. Only basketball and Ozil spoke out for the Uighurs but they were quickly shut down. I get that you can't make a stand for everything though.

And I am sick of everyone jumping the gun and encouraging what's happening blatantly cherrypicking certain details to fit their agenda. George Floyd is being painted as some sort of Saint right now but the reality is that he was far from it. How about the cop who was shot by protesters? Nobody is talking about it because they are too busy "protesting". Footballers just like many other athletes and professionals do a lot of anti-racism campaigns and they should stick to doing that but they should not be involved in individual accidents like this.

Irrelevent whether he was an angel or not. What crime allows him to be choked to death in the street like a dog? The cop shot by protestors? 99% of people who shoot cops don't get let off the hook or giving administrative league like cops who kill civilians unarmed, nor do they get fake medical reports to cover it up.
Isn't this also anti racism? I mean players often say that racism in football will not change unless we change society so it is appropriate.

 

[Lynty]

Is there any proof that it was racism? Is it racists to assume is was racism?

American cops kill far more white people than black people. Maybe this cop was just a complete cock and not a complete racist cock?

George Floyd is just the latest in a series white on black murders/injustices.

Derek Chuavin may not be racist, he might just be the usual dick head cop who abuses his power. Unfortunately, this happens too often and the victims are disproportionately black. Ahmaud Arbery's and Breonna Taylor's murder was definitely racially motivated and the police department attempted to cover it up and protect the perpetrators. Geroge Floyd was just the final straw.

Even so, the protests could have been quelled within a day. Unfortuantely, the police department continue to make public mistakes and compound the race division, adding fuel to the fire:

- only 1 squad was sent to protect Derek Chauvins house, but the whole precinct turned up to show their support.
- arrested a black CNN reporter live on air, meanwhile a white Fox reporter at the scene is fine.
- arrested a black FBI agent who was peacefully protesting
- pepper sprayed 2 black senators

That's before we even get to the blatantly racist President who is sitting in his bunker sending out threats on twitter.

The whole country is a moral shit hole.

 

[fps]

Is there any proof that it was racism? Is it racists to assume is was racism?

American cops kill far more white people than black people. Maybe this cop was just a complete cock and not a complete racist cock?

Racists don't come with hats that say "I'm a racist". Actually, I think Trump made one of those.... Anyway, racism is often a subtle combination of things which is not overtly provable nor brought to the surface, but simply influences behaviour and outcomes. I think it is safe to say this would not have happened to a white person, and that assumptions have been made about the man's criminality and levels of danger posed based on the colour of his skin, especially looking at the wider trends of stop and search and stories that come out. It is also hard to believe the other police officers would not have done more if they had seen their colleague assaulting a white person in this way, though it appears there is an absolute paucity of cases where police assault unarmed white people in the US. Look for the stories, look for black experiences in America, and you'll find all the evidence you need. If you don't look, you're doing yourself a disservice as I'm sure you'd want to collect details to come to a conclusion, and those experiences and their sheer number build up a picture of the toxic relationships between police and black communities in many areas. I read one story the other day about a college professor, nothing happened in the end, but the story chilled me. He was just going to work. Very intelligent and affluent. Powerless to stop the police doing whatever they wanted.

 

[squiggle]

When the football restarts in the premier league, the most watched football league in the world, players should take a knee for 8 minutes and 46 seconds.

We're seeing TV stations and the sort do such.

Before anyone mentions the issue being on America, racism is very much alive in our bigoted little island.

It would be the height of hypocrisy and virtue signaling to take a stand on this when they’ve ignored the deaths caused by their own sport. Even if those deaths were, for example, of third world workers rather than an American.

 

[RUCK4444]

why stop with America? The footballers have plenty of countries they can shame for racism and discrimination, police brutality, in many cases far worse.

do you feel they should make a stand for all incidents or just American ones?

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to realise that this single event has now been symbolised to reflect more than this act alone but rather the accumulation of systematic racial abuse and the apparent tolerance that police can act with absolute impunity.

It’s not about this incident or the Rodney King incident or any incident in isolation, it’s the greater picture. That is what any protest intends to achieve - change on a bigger scale.

Therefore it doesn’t matter if it’s in the States or here in the UK.

To say ‘ah well worse things happen every day’ and so ‘let’s not involve sport.’ When sport can shine a light on this for multiple generations is nothing but an acceptance of this behaviour in my view.

Let them do the kneel, it doesn’t have to be a daily event and it doesn’t affect anybody negatively, only the opposite.

Anybody offended should take a long look at themselves and decide if they are part of the problem. Ignorance is part of the problem, I’m as guilty of that as anybody. It has to change.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Some people on here are shocking. Well actually not too sure it is shocking unfortunately. What is wrong with showing you are a decent human being?

 

[sewey89]

fecking hell. This fecking thread. Some absolutely horrendous posts.

 

[RUCK4444]

Some people on here are shocking. Well actually not too sure it is shocking unfortunately. What is wrong with showing you are a decent human being?

Apparently it’s hypocrisy because we haven’t done it already.

So we must turn a blind eye forever now, for fear of being hypocrites, that’s more important than taking a stand against it (finally)

 

[2mufc0]

Before the game starts I assume. Easily doable.

This would be the most logical.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Apparently it’s hypocrisy because we haven’t done it already.

So we must turn a blind eye forever now, for fear of being hypocrites, that’s more important than taking a stand against it (finally)

There is racism everywhere and people have to take a stand against it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So footballers are now going to kneel for every tragedy? Will be a long time before we start playing.

It's funny how everyone is so concerned about one black person in America while millions in Africa are suffering daily and nobody cares. Modern day slavery is well and alive in Libya and it hardly get any news time or protest marches.

Indeed.

I wholeheartedly agree the cause against racism and selective brutality by any police force against any minority group , as we've seen in India and as we're seeing in the US. So I know which side I am personally on. However, there is a tendancy for over playing American issues merely because of their importance status in world affairs. And it just reeks of again pandering to them to make a special statement for their issues while most other countries have seen worse atrocities.

 

[Stacks]

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to realise that this single event has now been symbolised to reflect more than this act alone but rather the accumulation of systematic racial abuse and the apparent tolerance that police can act with absolute impunity.

It’s not about this incident or the Rodney King incident or any incident in isolation, it’s the greater picture. That is what any protest intends to achieve - change on a bigger scale.

Therefore it doesn’t matter if it’s in the States or here in the UK.

To say ‘ah well worse things happen every day’ and so ‘let’s not involve sport.’ When sport can shine a light on this for multiple generations is nothing but an acceptance of this behaviour in my view.

Let them do the kneel, it doesn’t have to be a daily event and it doesn’t affect anybody negatively, only the opposite.

Anybody offended should take a long look at themselves and decide if they are part of the problem. Ignorance is part of the problem, I’m as guilty of that as anybody. It has to change.

That's not the point I was making. I was wondering whether this stance was in relation to police brutality globally or just in the US?

 

[Random Task]

A minute's silence in recognition of the tragedy would suffice.

We can send the message that we are aware of the problem without causing unnecessary disruption to the game.

 

[squiggle]

Indeed.

I wholeheartedly agree the cause against racism and selective brutality by any police force against any minority group , as we've seen in India and as we're seeing in the US. So I know which side I am personally on. However, there is a tendancy for over playing American issues merely because of their importance status in world affairs. And it just reeks of again pandering to them to make a special statement for their issues while most other countries have seen worse atrocities.

That's it. I find police brutality and what happened to George Floyd appalling but I won't privilege US problems over others. We are not colonies of the USA and the people in our countries have equal dignity.

 

[Stacks]

Indeed.

I wholeheartedly agree the cause against racism and selective brutality by any police force against any minority group , as we've seen in India and as we're seeing in the US. So I know which side I am personally on. However, there is a tendancy for over playing American issues merely because of their importance status in world affairs. And it just reeks of again pandering to them to make a special statement for their issues while most other countries have seen worse atrocities.

Kind of the point I was trying to make. I am not against making a stand but is this just a stance against USA and silence on everyone else or a general stand against police brutality?

It gives the impression that people care little for the experiences of people in lesser or (unimportant countries in their eyes) but again if it's a general anti police brutality stance then more power to it.

 

[Pughnichi]

Nah, it has to be during the match to get full exposure. While kneeling for 8 mins 46 secondsmight be hard to implement, I think that the idea of doing a short kneel at the start and then again at the 8:46 point might optimize the mediatic impact without falling afoul of FIFA rules.

That’s a good idea. Game stopped at 8.46 for a 1 minute kneel. I still doubt if the football authorities would approve it.

 

[Lynty]

That’s a good idea. Game stopped at 8.46 for a 1 minute kneel. I still doubt if the football authorities would approve it.

How about if a player doesn't wish to kneel?

 

[squiggle]

It gives the impression that people care little for the experiences of people in lesser or (unimportant countries in their eyes) but again if it's a general anti police brutality stance then more power to it.

It gives that impression because that's the case.

 

[Camilo]

There is racism everywhere and people have to take a stand against it.

Against racists though? They don't fecking care, they're racists. The only way racism goes away is through education. Talking down to racists is the same as talking down to anyone close minded - you just entrench the belief. It doesn't help.

The American protests are against the police and government for allowing this profiling, racism, discriminating, to happen - quite right, and about time from what we see and read. But I don't see how protesting against an invisible racist here really does anything.

But maybe I'm wrong, maybe it helps the next generation to think for themselves, I don't know. What I do know is that it's not inherently wrong to be able to discuss the pros and cons of such a protest. It doesn't mean people are taking sides. It doesn't mean some people are racists. It just means a discussion is happening. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Born2Lose]

I'll get other people to do things so I can feel good about doing nothing myself.

 

[pascell]

8 minutes 46 seconds is a long time to kneel.

Long enough to kill a man who by law was innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Rado_N]

And I am sick of everyone jumping the gun and encouraging what's happening blatantly cherrypicking certain details to fit their agenda. George Floyd is being painted as some sort of Saint right now but the reality is that he was far from it. How about the cop who was shot by protesters? Nobody is talking about it because they are too busy "protesting". Footballers just like many other athletes and professionals do a lot of anti-racism campaigns and they should stick to doing that but they should not be involved in individual accidents like this.

For feck sake

 

[africanspur]

The best part of this post was when it ended.

Actually the best part for me was when the mask slipped and he made clear his real views.

I love it when people do that, whether online or in real life. Makes it so much easier to ignore them, rather than continue to engage, when they're pretending to be civil but you can feel the subtle difference in their treatment of you.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

How about if a player doesn't wish to kneel?

Presumably they still have the muscular power to stand.

 

[pascell]

Footballers, just like all the other professionals should stick to their jobs instead of doing stupid things like this.

Ah yes, the 'do what you're supposed to do, we need entertaining and your voices don't need to be heard' attitude, that would go down just grand I'm sure. They're slaves after all, not human beings.

'Stupid things like this' also another brilliant attitude because no one should ever stand up for themselves, what they belive in or just have general human decency.

 

[Verminator]

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to realise that this single event has now been symbolised to reflect more than this act alone but rather the accumulation of systematic racial abuse and the apparent tolerance that police can act with absolute impunity.

It’s not about this incident or the Rodney King incident or any incident in isolation, it’s the greater picture. That is what any protest intends to achieve - change on a bigger scale.

Therefore it doesn’t matter if it’s in the States or here in the UK.

To say ‘ah well worse things happen every day’ and so ‘let’s not involve sport.’ When sport can shine a light on this for multiple generations is nothing but an acceptance of this behaviour in my view.

Let them do the kneel, it doesn’t have to be a daily event and it doesn’t affect anybody negatively, only the opposite.

Anybody offended should take a long look at themselves and decide if they are part of the problem. Ignorance is part of the problem, I’m as guilty of that as anybody. It has to change.

Well said.

This is about drawing a line in the sand.
This is about saying "No more!"

It may have grown from one of many incidents, in another country. It may just be in so many people's consciousness because we are exposed to American news. It may seem one incident is being given more gravitas than many more heinous crimes in many other countries.

But this is the focal point of a necessary outpouring. A time stamp for a world of oppressed people, and for those of us are unwilling to stand by and be complicit.
This has put the issue to the front of the news, and demands of us to say where we stand.

It is not about the minutiae of what happened to George Floyd. It is about how we wish to react to a world that has allowed it and similar scenarios, and whether we are willing to allow its continued acceptance.

This is a Tiananmen square moment.
This is where we say, "Enough is enough!"