Dante
Average bang
No, because Gerard Pique is a part of history.
How does that sound for a striker not being part of an all time great attack in terms of numbers scored?He can’t be the best of his era when his never been part of an all time great defence in terms of numbers conceded, Vidic and Ferdinand have, Terry has, Silva has, Laporte and Kompany have to, Madrid on the other hand normally concede more amount of goals compared to these sides.
Do they? And so what if they do? I'm not saying he's crap. But Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro he isn't...Speaking of football "fans", i like how every teammate, every opposition, be it coach or rival players, rates him highly.
But of course, people online knows better than people who are actually participating in the game, its incredible, really.
The shit Ramos and Pique take is unreal.No, because Gerard Pique is a part of history.
Does anyone even rate him?Most overrated CB in the 21st century is John Stones.
Lots of people think he’s class yesDoes anyone even rate him?
It's funny that you mention Cannavaro because he didn't succeed as a CB at Real Madrid. Neither did Walter Samuel, who was known as "Il Muro" (The Wall) in Italy. Why? Because being a CB in Madrid demands a set of qualities very few defenders have, for the reasons some people have described in this thread so far.Do they? And so what if they do? I'm not saying he's crap. But Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro he isn't...
He hasn’t been rated since he was at Everton and even then he wasn’t rated.Lots of people think he’s class yes
He is dirty alright but does the dirty work you need sometimes. What he did to Salah in the Cup final was dirty but brilliant for Madrid. I hated him and still do but he will always be one of the best CBs in football.Ramos at his peak was class. What brings him down a peg or two is that he’s a sniveling shitbag.
Great career and trophies galore. I’m sure he won’t take his critics on this thread seriously.
Yes.Do they?
Bear in mind that Cannavaro was well into his 30s when he had his spell in Madrid. It's not as if they signed him at 27.It's funny that you mention Cannavaro because he didn't succeed as a CB at Real Madrid. Neither did Walter Samuel, who was known as "Il Muro" (The Wall) in Italy. Why? Because being a CB in Madrid demands a set of qualities very few defenders have, for the reasons some people have described in this thread so far.
Cannavaro was excellent in his first 2 years at Madrid, and that was when he was nearing the end of his career. He was nearly 33 when he went to Real.It's funny that you mention Cannavaro because he didn't succeed as a CB at Real Madrid. Neither did Walter Samuel, who was known as "Il Muro" (The Wall) in Italy. Why? Because being a CB in Madrid demands a set of qualities very few defenders have, for the reasons some people have described in this thread so far.
He had transferred to Madrid aged 33, got into FIFPro XI in both 2006 (largely on the back of the World Cup) and 2007 & when Marca had a vote on Madrid's best foreign XI, he got in. Around 2008-2009 he had struggled with pace (especially against Messi), but he was already what, 35 at the time? And it's not like Ramos has a stellar record against him anyway.It's funny that you mention Cannavaro because he didn't succeed as a CB at Real Madrid. Neither did Walter Samuel, who was known as "Il Muro" (The Wall) in Italy. Why? Because being a CB in Madrid demands a set of qualities very few defenders have, for the reasons some people have described in this thread so far.
That was when he was named best player in the worldBear in mind that Cannavaro was well into his 30s when he had his spell in Madrid. It's not as if they signed him at 27.
Also, Ramos is in his 30s btw, not that the guy you are responding to will care though.That was when he was named best player in the world
What does that have to do with anything? We've watched him now for well over a decade - or is this thread only about this season?Also, Ramos is in his 30s btw, not that the guy you are responding to will care though.
It's not my intention to compare Ramos and Cannavaro because they are very different players. I just wanted to point out at a practical case of a legendary CB like Cannavaro not being comfortable in a team where defenders were more exposed than usual. And this is a team that had Diarra and Emerson in front of the back line, and Capello as coach. Still far from some of the crazy attacked minded sides Ramos took part in the 2010s, where the Marcelo-Ronaldo duo simply and literally refused to defend at times. It's no surprise Casemiro had such a good welcome in 2016.He had transferred to Madrid aged 33, got into FIFPro XI in both 2006 (largely on the back of the World Cup) and 2007 & when Marca had a vote on Madrid's best foreign XI, he got in. Around 2008-2009 he had struggled with pace (especially against Messi), but he was already what, 35 at the time? And it's not like Ramos has a stellar record against him anyway.
I actually rate Ramos and I agree with some of your arguments, but he was never as good as peak Cannavaro. Very few were, to be fair.
Glad you mentioned this especially as being an Inter fan, Samuel is my all time favorite centre back.It's funny that you mention Cannavaro because he didn't succeed as a CB at Real Madrid. Neither did Walter Samuel, who was known as "Il Muro" (The Wall) in Italy. Why? Because being a CB in Madrid demands a set of qualities very few defenders have, for the reasons some people have described in this thread so far.
Cannavaro was very good in his season with us and still good in the second before hitting a cliff in 2008He had transferred to Madrid aged 33, got into FIFPro XI in both 2006 (largely on the back of the World Cup) and 2007 & when Marca had a vote on Madrid's best foreign XI, he got in. Around 2008-2009 he had struggled with pace (especially against Messi), but he was already what, 35 at the time? And it's not like Ramos has a stellar record against him anyway.
I actually rate Ramos and I agree with some of your arguments, but he was never as good as peak Cannavaro. Very few were, to be fair.
And playing better than everAlso, Ramos is in his 30s btw, not that the guy you are responding to will care though.
I think even Chiellini acknowledged how brilliant that was.He is dirty alright but does the dirty work you need sometimes. What he did to Salah in the Cup final was dirty but brilliant for Madrid. I hated him and still do but he will always be one of the best CBs in football.
So you agree that in order to be a top defender these days, you need to be a good footballer and a good defender, not just a good footballer right? Ok, cool.
La Liga goals conceded by Madrid
2018-19: 46 (!!!!)
2017-18: 44 (!!!)
2016-17: 41
2015-16: 34
2014-15: 38
2013-14: 38
CL goals conceded by Madrid
2018-19: 10
2017-18: 16
2016-17: 18
2015-16: 6 (I had to double check this to make sure it wasn't a typo! They faced PSG, Shakhtar Donetsk and Malmo in the GS, and Roma, Wolfsburg, Manchester City and Atletico in the knockout round. Fair enough for this season)
2014-15: 9
2013-14: 10
These numbers are scary for a top flight side.
Seems to me you’ve had far more All time great midfielders and forwards than defenders, no surprise.Your post is very interesting. Let me share some data before Ramos joined Madrid so we can see what the defense was like back then:
1997-98: 45 (wins CL)
1998-99: 62
1999-00: 48 (wins CL)
2000-01: 40 (wins the league)
2001-02: 44 (wins CL)
2002-03: 42 (wins the league)
2003-04: 54
Except for the odd season, that was a top flight team. Please, feel free to add as many exclamation marks as you consider per season
Well, I mean, as far I as I know Real weren't really known for having an amazing defense in those years. They had a very young Casillas in goal, Hierro and Helguera (not a world class combination by any means) and Salgado-Carlos on the wings.Your post is very interesting. Let me share some data before Ramos joined Madrid so we can see what the defense was like back then:
1997-98: 45 (wins CL)
1998-99: 62
1999-00: 48 (wins CL)
2000-01: 40 (wins the league)
2001-02: 44 (wins CL)
2002-03: 42 (wins the league)
2003-04: 54
Except for the odd season, that was a top flight team. Please, feel free to add as many exclamation marks as you consider per season
Your post is very interesting. Let me share some data before Ramos joined Madrid so we can see what the defense was like back then:
1997-98: 45 (wins CL)
1998-99: 62
1999-00: 48 (wins CL)
2000-01: 40 (wins the league)
2001-02: 44 (wins CL)
2002-03: 42 (wins the league)
2003-04: 54
Except for the odd season, that was a top flight team. Please, feel free to add as many exclamation marks as you consider per season
Van Dijk is the most overrated CB in history?No, VVD is.
Hierro, who was a converted DM. Galactico era started with Florentino Perez(2000) though it wasn't named such until 2003 iirc?
I don't have enough symbols to annotate this with
Who was the main defender during this era? Was it Hierro? How would you compare him against Ramos (both obviously being Real Madrid legends)
Also, when did the Galatico era start?
Rather than using the numbers to prove Ramos defending is this or that level (I don't think I did that), I just wanted to give some context to @adexkola 's post, showing some of the stats before the player joined the team. If anything my point is that in a typical Real Madrid enviroment, conceding a fair share is the norm rather than the exception, so it just doesn't make sense to draw conclusions out of each individual of a Madrid backline based on the numbers.Well, I mean, as far I as I know Real weren't really known for having an amazing defense in those years. They had a very young Casillas in goal, Hierro and Helguera (not a world class combination by any means) and Salgado-Carlos on the wings.
Carlos was also not known to be great defensively. Comparing Ramos to them and saying that's reason his defending is world class doesn't prove a point.
It is very interesting that you share Mourinho's era numbers too. If I recall correctly, under Mourinho the backline was characterized by the following things:Hierro, who was a converted DM. Galactico era started with Florentino Perez(2000) though it wasn't named such until 2003 iirc?
Sergio Ramos > Hierro
Btw Mourinho era:
2011 - 33
2012 - 32
2013 - 42
CL
2011- 6
2012 - 9
2013 - 18
Now, some of those teams mentioned by yourself and @GatoLoco were just poor sides, and some were really weird, but those that weren't have one thing in common: the attacks were exceptional by league standards