Greenwood or Martinelli

[Brightonian]

It reminds me of time when people used to compare Rashford to Iheanacho.
Just the pure existence of this thread is criminal. Delete it and don't fool yourself. Mason is another level.

It's a perfectly legitimate comparison to make. I was obviously not expecting many people to say Martinelli is better, both because he isn't and because this is a United forum. Obviously I myself think Mason is the favourite, as I said from the start. But they are similar in age and two of the most gifted teenage forwards in the league, so I thought it would be interesting to see exactly how people rate them comparatively.

'Delete this thread' should probably wait until you've been here for more than a year and posted more than a hundred or so times, eh?

@amolbhatia50k As above.

 

[Drainy]

It's a perfectly legitimate comparison to make. I was obviously not expecting many people to say Martinelli is better, both because he isn't and because this is a United forum. Obviously I myself think Mason is the favourite, as I said from the start. But they are similar in age and two of the most gifted teenage forwards in the league, so I thought it would be interesting to see exactly how people rate them comparatively.

'Delete this thread' should probably wait until you've been here for more than a year and posted more than a hundred or so times, eh?

@amolbhatia50k As above.

didn't you say that Martinelli is a better all around footballer and you expect him to be the better player, while Greenwood scores more goals in his career?

 

[Utdstar01]

Greenwood is one of the most natural talents I've seen. Lets hope he makes the most of his gifts.

 

[Brightonian]

didn't you say that Martinelli is a better all around footballer and you expect him to be the better player, while Greenwood scores more goals in his career?

No, I said Greenwood would be my personal pick but if I was a foreign team I would probably (at that time) choose Martinelli because he will eventually turn into a more flexible, all-round forward, rather than specifically a CF. Granted Greenwood's progress has accelerated even further and right now I'd take him over Martinelli for any position.

But I still stand by the thread: the point was to genuinely ask the question, and to generate discussion about both players. I wanted to see what people thought of Martinelli, who after all would be being treated as a revelation if not for being overshadowed by Greenwood, and is definitely by some distance the second best teenage forward in the league.

I think it's a shame threads like these have to turn into an attack on the lesser player just because the greater is so good. Martinelli's a really exciting talent. The point of the thread was not in any way to undermine how good we all know Greenwood is, the way some have done with 'Rashford vs-' threads in the past. If you look at my posting history you'll see I've been as excited about Greenwood for as long as anyone on here. Longer, certainly, than lots of those criticising the premise of the thread.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Making bold claims about Martinelli, based on feck all evidence, was always going to bite you on the arse. At least with Greenwood lots of us had been following his underage career closely for a while. So opinions were much better informed.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Thanks, wasn’t going to bother replying to that weird post, I think @Regulus Arcturus Black is too invested in this debate.

2 posts in thread. “Invested”

 

[Drainy]

Making bold claims about Martinelli, based on feck all evidence, was always going to bite you on the arse. At least with Greenwood lots of us had been following his underage career closely for a while. So opinions were much better informed.

I mean, he literally got rejected by United because he wasn't as good as Greenwood.

 

[Lee565]

I dont know why but I get a vibe that martinelli will never be consistent starter for arsenal

 

[Che Guevara]

They are both brilliant youngsters developing very well. But personally l wd pick Martinelli ahead of Greenwood because l feel Martinelli is a more all round striker. He has played well thru the middle and out wide, and has aerial superiority and scored brilliant headers which to me is an important quality for a CF, l like strikers with an aerial threat. From what l recall, Greenwood has not yet scored a header. But it's all down to personal preference and people don't have to agree on such issues.

 

[bond19821982]

Reminds me of the time Liverpool fans were trying to compare Anthony Le Tallec with Cristiano Ronaldo. Different leagues.

Well speaking of Liverpool fans, there was a Ronaldo vs Pennant thread. Yes, I'm damn serious

 

[Paxi]

I mean, he literally got rejected by United because he wasn't as good as Greenwood.

I don’t think that’s the case to be honest. We made a feck up and that’s it.
Had we seen some of the glimpses that he has shown at Arsenal — we’d have definitely offered him a contract.
There’s always room for quality and Martinelli will in all probability go on to have a great career. It would have been superb to have them both on our books. But you win some and you lose some.

 

[AltiUn]

I don’t think that’s the case to be honest. We made a feck up and that’s it.
Had we seen some of the glimpses that he has shown at Arsenal — we’d have definitely offered him a contract.
There’s always room for quality and Martinelli will in all probability go on to have a great career. It would have been superb to have them both on our books. But you win some and you lose some.

JB said as much on his Twitter and he’s about as reliable as they come regarding our academy.

 

[ThatsGreat]

Reminds me of the time Liverpool fans were trying to compare Anthony Le Tallec with Cristiano Ronaldo. Different leagues.

This thread wasn't made by arsenal fans, all arsenal fans on this thread or on reddit etc are agreeing that Greenwood is the superior player at the moment.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

They are both brilliant youngsters developing very well. But personally l wd pick Martinelli ahead of Greenwood because l feel Martinelli is a more all round striker. He has played well thru the middle and out wide, and has aerial superiority and scored brilliant headers which to me is an important quality for a CF, l like strikers with an aerial threat. From what l recall, Greenwood has not yet scored a header. But it's all down to personal preference and people don't have to agree on such issues.

I agree.

Keep Martinelli. Greenwood's level is more Utd

 

[Paxi]

JB said as much on his Twitter and he’s about as reliable as they come regarding our academy.

Seems like a very strange decision. Let’s not sign a top talent because we have one already in his position. On a free as well. Usually clubs will hoover up talent if nothing but for profit at the end of the day.

 

[mav_9me]

They are both brilliant youngsters developing very well. But personally l wd pick Martinelli ahead of Greenwood because l feel Martinelli is a more all round striker. He has played well thru the middle and out wide, and has aerial superiority and scored brilliant headers which to me is an important quality for a CF, l like strikers with an aerial threat. From what l recall, Greenwood has not yet scored a header. But it's all down to personal preference and people don't have to agree on such issues.

I totally get your point of view. But I think in time you will see Greenwood has so much more to his game than "just" finishing.

 

[Eire Red United]

Greenwood seems to just have that bit of something where everytime he gets the ball there is danger for the opposition. Not many players have it and we’ve been missing it since RVP’s decline. His two footedness really is something special as well.

 

[RyRoc]

Don’t really see the need for people in the thread to have a pop at Martinelli. How many other 18 year-olds have come from the other side of the world and scored 10 goals in their first full season in English football? I think I read the other day that he’s the first teenager to score 10 plus goals for Arsenal since Anelka so he’s rightfully in the discussion as a top wonder kid.

 

[Drainy]

Seems like a very strange decision. Let’s not sign a top talent because we have one already in his position. On a free as well. Usually clubs will hoover up talent if nothing but for profit at the end of the day.

Wasn't it like £6m to sign him?

My understanding is that the thinking was that they could not guarantee game time to him since Greenwood was already a better player at the club in the same position at the same age.

We probably should have signed him anyway, but the people who are paid professionally to appraise the current and potential ability of players for our academy, and have their own budget to spend on talent came to the view that Greenwood was better after having Martinelli on trial 4 times.

If that doesn't convince United fans that he is the bigger talent, I don't know what would. Unless you think that our academy scouts are shit, which they are not since we have the most successful academy in England..

 

[RyRoc]

Greenwood seems to just have that bit of something where everytime he gets the ball there is danger for the opposition. Not many players have it and we’ve been missing it since RVP’s decline. His two footedness really is something special as well.

Fully agreed but it also helps that United are looking so slick going forward at the moment and players who are fantastic at finding others with forward passes. Greenwood’s come in at a brilliant time to really show what he’s capable of and it’s been a joy to watch but might not have looked quite as good back in the Autumn when the midfield looked slow and disjointed and probably wouldn’t have seen the ball as much.

 

[TheReligion]

Both good talents but at the moment Greenwood looks like the generational one.

Also great that United have developed him from a young age and he's one of our own. No need to shit on Martinelli though.

 

[Paxi]

Wasn't it like £6m to sign him?

My understanding is that the thinking was that they could not guarantee game time to him since Greenwood was already a better player at the club in the same position at the same age.

We probably should have signed him anyway, but the people who are paid professionally to appraise the current and potential ability of players for our academy, and have their own budget to spend on talent came to the view that Greenwood was better after having Martinelli on trial 4 times.

If that doesn't convince United fans that he is the bigger talent, I don't know what would. Unless you think that our academy scouts are shit, which they are not since we have the most successful academy in England..

I didn’t know that we had to pay anything to be honest. I just thought that he came here on trail and he just didn’t impress. But okay, point taken.

 

[Paxi]

Both good talents but at the moment Greenwood looks like the generational one.

Also great that United have developed him from a young age and he's one of our own. No need to shit on Martinelli though.

Yep, had we signed Martinelli, there would be countless threads now about having two best youngsters in the world. Football is so tribal that we can’t ever see past our own. Arsenal have some class players coming through — that’s just the truth of it.

 

[RyRoc]

Wasn't it like £6m to sign him?

My understanding is that the thinking was that they could not guarantee game time to him since Greenwood was already a better player at the club in the same position at the same age.

We probably should have signed him anyway, but the people who are paid professionally to appraise the current and potential ability of players for our academy, and have their own budget to spend on talent came to the view that Greenwood was better after having Martinelli on trial 4 times.

If that doesn't convince United fans that he is the bigger talent, I don't know what would. Unless you think that our academy scouts are shit, which they are not since we have the most successful academy in England..

Arsenal’s technical director Edu said this week that Martinelli was brought for the Under 23s and wasnt expected to feature for the first team this season so very much doubt that bolded bit is true.

 

[Eire Red United]

Fully agreed but it also helps that United are looking so slick going forward at the moment and players who are fantastic at finding others with forward passes. Greenwood’s come in at a brilliant time to really show what he’s capable of and it’s been a joy to watch but might not have looked quite as good back in the Autumn when the midfield looked slow and disjointed and probably wouldn’t have seen the ball as much.

Yeah agreed, dream situation for him playing in front of the best creators around, but he seems to have that knack of being able to create his own chances, really exciting talent.

 

[Drainy]

Arsenal’s technical director Edu said this week that Martinelli was brought for the Under 23s and wasnt expected to feature for the first team this season so very much doubt that bolded bit is true.

What does Arsenal's opinion have to do with Man Utd's appraisal a couple of years or so ago?

I have no idea what your point is.

Man Utds academy is one of the best run parts of the club, they had Martinelli over 4 times on trial and came to the view that he would not get game time in the academy over Greenwood in their preferred position. Its not to say he is crap (he clearly isn't), but he was not as good as Greenwood (and there is no shame in that) so we passed on him.

The fact he is doing well at at Arsenal and that Greenwood has been promoted to the 1st team already were distant dreams back when we made the decision, but if he was at the club he would likely still be in the U23s. It worked out well for both sides.

 

[RyRoc]

Yep, had we signed Martinelli, there would be countless threads now about having two best youngsters in the world. Football is so tribal that we can’t ever see past our own. Arsenal have some class players coming through — that’s just the truth of it.

Agree with this and have to say I find it a bit strange that fans do it with younger players. I get there’s rivalry and banter and people love their clubs but for me one of the things I actually enjoy about football is seeing young players make their mark on the game. Of course I prefer to see it at my club but can appreciate when others are doing it.

 

[RyRoc]

What does Arsenal's opinion have to do with Man Utd's appraisal a couple of years or so ago?

I have no idea what your point is.

Man Utds academy is one of the best run parts of the club, they had Martinelli over 4 times on trial and came to the view that he would not get game time in the academy over Greenwood in their preferred position. Its not to say he is crap (he clearly isn't), but he was not as good as Greenwood (and there is no shame in that) so we passed on him.

The fact he is doing well at at Arsenal and that Greenwood has been promoted to the 1st team already were distant dreams back when we made the decision, but if he was at the club he would likely still be in the U23s. It worked out well for both sides.

Sorry , my bad , didn’t realise you were talking a few years ago and not now. Apologies.

 

[Cassidy]

Yep, had we signed Martinelli, there would be countless threads now about having two best youngsters in the world. Football is so tribal that we can’t ever see past our own. Arsenal have some class players coming through — that’s just the truth of it.

Pretty much

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yep, had we signed Martinelli, there would be countless threads now about having two best youngsters in the world. Football is so tribal that we can’t ever see past our own. Arsenal have some class players coming through — that’s just the truth of it.

A statement you could have said in any one of the past 10 (or more?) seasons and nobody would disagree with you.

Pennant, Bentley, Alliadiere, Owuse-Abeyie, Wilshere, Bendtner, Carlos Vela, Fran Merida, Diaby etc etc. There is ALWAYS a bunch of kids at Arsenal predicted to be world-beaters but their record at converting that potential into top class footballers (who play for Arsenal) is pretty dreadful.

 

[Paxi]

A statement you could have said in any one of the past 10 (or more?) seasons and nobody would disagree with you.

Pennant, Bentley, Alliadiere, Owuse-Abeyie, Wilshere, Bendtner, Carlos Vela, Fran Merida, Diaby etc etc. There is ALWAYS a bunch of kids at Arsenal predicted to be world-beaters but their record at converting that potential into top class footballers (who play for Arsenal) is pretty dreadful.

That’s very true.

 

[VP89]

I mean, he literally got rejected by United because he wasn't as good as Greenwood.

Greenwood has been tipped as a generational talent for a few years. You really think youngsters are rejected because they aren't as good a generational talent? Quite sure we don't snub talents so early based on such a high measuring stick.

 

[Drainy]

Sorry , my bad , didn’t realise you were talking a few years ago and not now. Apologies.

oh right, makes sense.

If I remember, he had 4 trials with us from 14-16 and didn't make the grade because he was worse than what was at the club for that years intake at u18s (Greenwood). The club are willing to spend on promising players where there is a gap in the academy intake for that year and the player is better than what we have - recently we spent £8m of Mejbri and allegedly a potential £9m of Emeran (who has spent the whole time injured)

I think JB mentioned that he ended up having a massive growth spurt since that changed his playstyle and its made him a far better player for it and he's doing well now and looks really promising.

 

[Che Guevara]

A statement you could have said in any one of the past 10 (or more?) seasons and nobody would disagree with you.

Pennant, Bentley, Alliadiere, Owuse-Abeyie, Wilshere, Bendtner, Carlos Vela, Fran Merida, Diaby etc etc. There is ALWAYS a bunch of kids at Arsenal predicted to be world-beaters but their record at converting that potential into top class footballers (who play for Arsenal) is pretty dreadful.

To be fair that's true of most clubs. In this era of oil money and galacticos most successful clubs just raid the market.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To be fair that's true of most clubs. In this era of oil money and galacticos most successful clubs just raid the market.

Most clubs (with ambitions of CL football) find it difficult to get their best young players established as regular first team players but Arsenal seem to consistently have the biggest gap between hype and reality when it comes to the careers of their best young players. Maybe it’s because the football media is so London-centric? It’s definitely a thing anyway.

Who was the last Arsenal youngster to come close to fulfilling his potential for them anyway? Hector Bellerin? I can’t think of anyone else. And we’ve been hearing about how incredible Arsenal youth team players are since forever. Every year it seems they would smash someone in the Carling Cup with a bunch of teenagers and the hype machine would go crazy. Martinelli just seems like the latest of many.

 

[Che Guevara]

Most clubs (with ambitions of CL football) find it difficult to get their best young players established as regular first team players but Arsenal seem to consistently have the biggest gap between hype and reality when it comes to the careers of their best young players. Maybe it’s because the football media is so London-centric? It’s definitely a thing anyway.

Who was the last Arsenal youngster to come close to fulfilling his potential for them anyway? Hector Bellerin? I can’t think of anyone else. And we’ve been hearing about how incredible Arsenal youth team players are since forever. Every year it seems they would smash someone in the Carling Cup with a bunch of teenagers and the hype machine would go crazy. Martinelli just seems like the latest of many.

I think it was Wenger's flawed philosophy. He got too attached to his group of youngsters and sold the experienced players to make money for the club instead of making money thru on-field success. I was not surprised when their fans turned against Wenger and now Arteta is adamantly refusing to sell experienced players. You always need a healthy blend and balance between youngsters and experience, and Wenger lost that. I'm not sure why you sound so certain that Martinelli will be another flop. I'm not even sure we can sensibly compare these two teenagers and predict who will be a success. This debate shd take place five years from now when the players have fully developed and shd be approaching their peak. Harry Kane was totally unknown as a teenager but is now England's best striker, a lot better than some players who looked brilliant as teenagers.

 

[cyberman]

Most clubs (with ambitions of CL football) find it difficult to get their best young players established as regular first team players but Arsenal seem to consistently have the biggest gap between hype and reality when it comes to the careers of their best young players. Maybe it’s because the football media is so London-centric? It’s definitely a thing anyway.

Who was the last Arsenal youngster to come close to fulfilling his potential for them anyway? Hector Bellerin? I can’t think of anyone else. And we’ve been hearing about how incredible Arsenal youth team players are since forever. Every year it seems they would smash someone in the Carling Cup with a bunch of teenagers and the hype machine would go crazy. Martinelli just seems like the latest of many.

I think Saka is their Greenwood more than anything. He does look a talent

 

[Mogget]

Most clubs (with ambitions of CL football) find it difficult to get their best young players established as regular first team players but Arsenal seem to consistently have the biggest gap between hype and reality when it comes to the careers of their best young players. Maybe it’s because the football media is so London-centric? It’s definitely a thing anyway.

Who was the last Arsenal youngster to come close to fulfilling his potential for them anyway? Hector Bellerin? I can’t think of anyone else. And we’ve been hearing about how incredible Arsenal youth team players are since forever. Every year it seems they would smash someone in the Carling Cup with a bunch of teenagers and the hype machine would go crazy. Martinelli just seems like the latest of many.

That's great logic. Because overhyped Arsenal youngsters didn't make it in the past, any Arsenal youngster showing potential now is exactly the same.

 

[SAFMUTD]

He is overachieving his xG in EPL tmes 3.33, he should have 2.4 goals instead of 8 let that sink in. So he's not scoring tap ins but low chance goals.

For reference the best next player is KDB overachieving times 1.62

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think Saka is their Greenwood more than anything. He does look a talent

He’s definitely their best youngster right now.