Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

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romufc

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As far as I know, top clubs aren't actually losing money, they simply make less than they used to
No they are losing money.

Clubs had to refund ticket / season ticket money - Loss
Manutd still pay all their staff, both non matchday and matchday - Loss
 

Adam-Utd

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I'm sorry but it's much more likely that the financial situation for clubs will be more comfortable next window. Yes, there probably will be a second wave, in fact it's already emerging. However, we still have 10/11 months to go. If scientists are quick, it actually is possible that the first vaccines are approved before 2021 begins.

Also, the current situation is after a complete shutdown for several months - I doubt that this will happen again. Instead, at least TV money etc. is flowing again. It would be just dumb from Dortmund to sell him now for a Corona discount. And it probably would also be dumb from Sancho to sign for a salary much lower than what he could get next year.

Besides that, the reason why top clubs have a tight budget currently is because of the cash flow. People like pointing out how many millions clubs "lose" every match, but those are actually opportunity costs. As far as I know, top clubs aren't actually losing money, they simply make less than they used to. Once ticketing kicks in again, things will change.
It's impossible to know, this is the point.

If we had a full lockdown again sport would get cancelled. it won't continue if everybody is told to Isolate again, footballers aren't immune.

This is the risk Dortmund take.
 

cyberman

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I'm sorry but it's much more likely that the financial situation for clubs will be more comfortable next window. Yes, there probably will be a second wave, in fact it's already emerging. However, we still have 10/11 months to go. If scientists are quick, it actually is possible that the first vaccines are approved before 2021 begins.

Also, the current situation is after a complete shutdown for several months - I doubt that this will happen again. Instead, at least TV money etc. is flowing again. It would be just dumb from Dortmund to sell him now for a Corona discount. And it probably would also be dumb from Sancho to sign for a salary much lower than what he could get next year.

Besides that, the reason why top clubs have a tight budget currently is because of the cash flow. People like pointing out how many millions clubs "lose" every match, but those are actually opportunity costs. As far as I know, top clubs aren't actually losing money, they simply make less than they used to. Once ticketing kicks in again, things will change.
Wow. I have no words.
Even Trump is a bit more realistic than this and he has an election to lose on November.
 

7even

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I want to comment about Hans Joachim Watzke and negotiations in general. (I made a similar comments when we bought Mkhitaryan)

Watzke is doing the same mistakes all over again.

He seems to never learn. First he put his reputation as a Westphalian on the line. Then he starts to criticize ex players who works as pundits. Finally he back track and start to use excuses why his club is short of cash. (All clubs struggle in a Pandemic, nothing new, that why selling Sancho is one option if Borussia D needs fresh cash)

This is my experience regarding negotiations.

If you’re in a good position you don’t have to talk more then necessary, let the silence do the job for you. Don’t insult people inside or outside the negotiation. Don’t assume things without knowledge. Never say something is set in stone. The world spin around, things can change. Let one person be the focal point of the negotiation. The more people who talks the more misunderstandings.

Another strategy is to be humble. Talk about each other and the deal with respect. Accepts that there is two ways to see the situation. Start as friends and end as good friends. Maybe you will do business again together.
 

red thru&thru

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The new seasons starts in a month, we need at least 3 signings at we're still dragging out feet with Sancho. Im not surprised people are losing their cool.
Even if we sign him now, what is the point paying his wages and their been close to no one in training at Carrington? He's better off staying with BVB for the moment, training and getting match fitness.
 

lsd

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Considering that Scholes had won more in his career then Dortmund had ever done then you expect a teeny weeny bit of respect towards him. Oh well.

They literally called him a great player
 

The Man Himself

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Next step, Sancho needs to post a picture of him in plane, contemplating (like VvD did).
 

edcunited1878

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I'm sorry but it's much more likely that the financial situation for clubs will be more comfortable next window. Yes, there probably will be a second wave, in fact it's already emerging. However, we still have 10/11 months to go. If scientists are quick, it actually is possible that the first vaccines are approved before 2021 begins.

Also, the current situation is after a complete shutdown for several months - I doubt that this will happen again. Instead, at least TV money etc. is flowing again. It would be just dumb from Dortmund to sell him now for a Corona discount. And it probably would also be dumb from Sancho to sign for a salary much lower than what he could get next year.

Besides that, the reason why top clubs have a tight budget currently is because of the cash flow. People like pointing out how many millions clubs "lose" every match, but those are actually opportunity costs. As far as I know, top clubs aren't actually losing money, they simply make less than they used to. Once ticketing kicks in again, things will change.
Having a vaccine is a start, but it's not the end all be all. The flu is a coronavirus and there are multiple strains of said flu and only a handful of flu vaccines. People still get the flu even with a vaccine. There's zero guarantee if a Covid vaccine with allow life to go back to normal and sporting attendance to go back to normal after people get a vaccine.

ALL clubs have had to readjust their annual and quarterly budgets, no matter the sport, no matter the club status. There's always one constant cash flow at football clubs...and that's expenses. Operational costs, monthly/annual overhead, and staff/player wages. TV rights and money are being challenged now more than ever. These TV companies who are paying these rights fees are not able to make movies, TV shows, programming, etc. that generate cash for them to pay the rights fees! Brands aren't able to advertising their products on TV during the match when people don't have enough stable income to buy said products! It's a vicious cycle that does not exempt many people, industries, or companies!
 

Zehner

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No they are losing money.

Clubs had to refund ticket / season ticket money - Loss
Manutd still pay all their staff, both non matchday and matchday - Loss
Obviously there are fixed costs that aren't covered right now. This doesn't mean that the club is actually losing money after all. As long as you make a profit at the end of the year, this is more like a break for you and the moment the cash flows in again, you're where you were before the pandemic. The club isn't losing substamce, so to speak.

Actually, I think player contracts running out and deprevations of intangible assets are the biggest risk.

It's impossible to know, this is the point.

If we had a full lockdown again sport would get cancelled. it won't continue if everybody is told to Isolate again, footballers aren't immune.

This is the risk Dortmund take.
I mean, even if the market doesn't recover, Sancho will probably be worth the same as he's now. So they can as well profit from him for another season. You guys want this decision to be risky.
 

glazed

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Don't go by Luckhurst, he knows feck all. A couple of tier 1/well respected journalists have stated agent fees aren't a problem.
I guess in these kind of high stakes poker games no-one really knows anything except Ed and his German counterpart.
 

edcunited1878

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We'll see about that. I think you want it to be that way.
You think I want what to be that way? Revenue sources being cut dry??? Someone like Liverpool could just sit on their money and not make any big transfer for a year, sell Salah, and then buy Sancho. Could be possible, but then, their revenue is still short due to Covid and they have to take on probably higher wages than Salah and then lose out on the transfer costs.
 

glazed

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If Ole isn't backed it will be Summer 2018 all over again and the whole forum will be lambasting him in December when we sit 6th with zero quality depth.
The Glazers are only semi-aware that the people in the red and white outfits running around on TV have any connection to the amount of money they are making. They might even be right.
 

VP89

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I guess in these kind of high stakes poker games no-one really knows anything except Ed and his German counterpart.
I'm sure some know more than others. I believe the reputable reported info is most likely the case too - that we have a problem in agreeing on the structure of the add ons.
 

Leftback99

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I'm sorry but it's much more likely that the financial situation for clubs will be more comfortable next window. Yes, there probably will be a second wave, in fact it's already emerging. However, we still have 10/11 months to go. If scientists are quick, it actually is possible that the first vaccines are approved before 2021 begins.

Also, the current situation is after a complete shutdown for several months - I doubt that this will happen again. Instead, at least TV money etc. is flowing again. It would be just dumb from Dortmund to sell him now for a Corona discount. And it probably would also be dumb from Sancho to sign for a salary much lower than what he could get next year.

Besides that, the reason why top clubs have a tight budget currently is because of the cash flow. People like pointing out how many millions clubs "lose" every match, but those are actually opportunity costs. As far as I know, top clubs aren't actually losing money, they simply make less than they used to. Once ticketing kicks in again, things will change.
Our profit before tax was £27.5m in 18/19, a season where we had CL income. Take off even half the match day income and it becomes a heavy loss. There's more to it than that obviously but most top clubs will be losing money.
Dortmund for comparison:
 

Brownie85

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This is all part of Dortmunds plan I think. Declare Sancho is staying and its set in stone, deal is dead as far as they're concerned etc. United cave and offer a good deal that Dortmund like. They accept and say that Sancho is homesick and would like to leave the club, so they're granting him his wish.

Player leaves, club can say they did all they could to keep him but he forced their hand etc. Just because he doesnt hand in a transfer request doesnt mean that hes not told them of his desire to leave if the chance arises. In my opinion its all negotiation tactics and power play
 

nainaisson

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I want to comment about Hans Joachim Watzke and negotiations in general. (I made a similar comments when we bought Mkhitaryan)

Watzke is doing the same mistakes all over again.

He seems to never learn. First he put his reputation as a Westphalian on the line. Then he starts to criticize ex players who works as pundits. Finally he back track and start to use excuses why his club is short of cash. (All clubs struggle in a Pandemic, nothing new, that why selling Sancho is one option if Borussia D needs fresh cash)

This is my experience regarding negotiations.

If you’re in a good position you don’t have to talk more then necessary, let the silence do the job for you. Don’t insult people inside or outside the negotiation. Don’t assume things without knowledge. Never say something is set in stone. The world spin around, things can change. Let one person be the focal point of the negotiation. The more people who talks the more misunderstandings.

Another strategy is to be humble. Talk about each other and the deal with respect. Accepts that there is two ways to see the situation. Start as friends and end as good friends. Maybe you will do business again together.
I prefer the professional wrestler approach to negotiations, myself. I wish Ed would give a television interview in which he rips his shirt off and threatens to "break" Watzke.
 

el3mel

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So much bad luck/bad performance/straight stupidity has happened on our side with this transfer. First the utter collapse at the end of last season to miss out on Champions League when we were nailed on to sign him. Then this summer a fecking global pandemic happens when we were once again nailed on to sign him and hugely limits us financially. Then Dortmund, who are usually completely spineless, decide to put in a completely arbitrary deadline despite knowing it's an extremely difficult transfer to negotiate in the current market, and it seems they could actually follow through in enforcing it. And us not being able to pay is one thing, but if Woody is prepared to at some point meet Dortmund's requests and he messed around because he thought the deadline is fake then I don't know what to say. If we miss out this summer I have to say I can't see any way he doesn't join another big club next summer.

If Ole isn't backed it will be Summer 2018 all over again and the whole forum will be lambasting him in December when we sit 6th with zero quality depth.
If we don't sign Sancho, we still have Greenwood to be our main RW and he's producing and performing there currently. We won't be in a disaster that's I'm sure about.
 
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If we don't sign Sancho, we still have Greenwood to be our main RW and he's producing and performing there currently. We won't be in a disaster that's I'm sure about.
I'm not worried about Greenwood, he's class. But if one of our front three gets injured we are absolutely fecked, not to mention we already don't have any attackers who can change the game off the bench or fill in at a high level when Rashford/Martial/Greenwood need a rest. That's why signing Sancho is so important, aside from the obvious signing of one of the best talents in the world with incredible productivity, it gives us much more flexibility. Our current setup is a good guarantee of running that front three into the ground by making them start every game, Ole's use of our backups since the restart confirms how little trust he has in them.
 

Organic Potatoes

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So much bad luck/bad performance/straight stupidity has happened on our side with this transfer. First the utter collapse at the end of last season to miss out on Champions League when we were nailed on to sign him. Then this summer a fecking global pandemic happens when we were once again nailed on to sign him and hugely limits us financially. Then Dortmund, who are usually completely spineless, decide to put in a completely arbitrary deadline despite knowing it's an extremely difficult transfer to negotiate in the current market, and it seems they could actually follow through in enforcing it. And us not being able to pay is one thing, but if Woody is prepared to at some point meet Dortmund's requests and he messed around because he thought the deadline is fake then I don't know what to say. If we miss out this summer I have to say I can't see any way he doesn't join another big club next summer.

If Ole isn't backed it will be Summer 2018 all over again and the whole forum will be lambasting him in December when we sit 6th with zero quality depth.
You could argue we’ve had great luck, because none of the other big clubs are in a position to sign him. Bar Chelsea perhaps, but they’re going in another direction with Timo and Kai.
 

el3mel

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I'm not worried about Greenwood, he's class. But if one of our front three gets injured we are absolutely fecked, not to mention we already don't have any attackers who can change the game off the bench or fill in at a high level when Rashford/Martial/Greenwood need a rest. That's why signing Sancho is so important, aside from the obvious signing of one of the best talents in the world with incredible productivity, it gives us much more flexibility. Our current setup is a good guarantee of running that front three into the ground by making them start every game, Ole's use of our backups since the restart confirms how little trust he has in them.
I think if we don't sign Sancho we'll move on and buy a cheap bench option like Coman while focusing on Greenwood as a starter at the end.

Still 2 months left in this window so too early to start panicking about a similar 2018 window.
 

hellhunter

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I think if we don't sign Sancho we'll move on and buy a cheap bench option like Coman while focusing on Greenwood as a starter at the end.

Still 2 months left in this window so too early to start panicking about a similar 2018 window.
Might have to reevaluate that. No sure Coman would agree, nor Bayern for that matter.
 

sport2793

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Haha I can't believe Watzke felt the need to name-drop Scholes and Hargreaves. What a clown. If the deal is truly dead, why is he still talking about it?
 

GazTheLegend

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The new seasons starts in a month, we need at least 3 signings at we're still dragging our feet with Sancho. Im not surprised people are losing their cool.
To be fair there is the small matter of a global pandemic which means literally no fans can enter stadiums and pay money right now.
 

TheReligion

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Haha I can't believe Watzke felt the need to name-drop Scholes and Hargreaves. What a clown. If the deal is truly dead, why is he still talking about it?
No idea. If it was truly dead you'd think they'd give their statement and then move on to focus on other things right? Instead they keep on talking, and talking and talking.

Seems bizarre to me. Thought they wanted to put a line under it.
 

CG1010

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Thing is do you actually trust Utd to do that? We`ve already fixated 3 positions(RW CB No10) not signing Sancho won`t change that it only means we sign a scrub as a fall back RW and invest in the remaining positions provided we sell the deadwood there(Smalling, Rojo, Jones for CB Lingard, Pereira no10)
There is nothing good about not getting Sancho
Maybe I sound like a blind supporter but I do trust Ole. Till now he has us very good players (barring James maybe) who have been great assets for the team, combined with good attitude.

I think we can do away with the need for a RW for another season if we don't get a Sacho-like player.. Greenwood is there and if we get another AM we could even play Bruno out on the wings. Especially if we invest in a good full back to provide the width.
 

Judas

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Maybe I sound like a blind supporter but I do trust Ole. Till now he has us very good players (barring James maybe) who have been great assets for the team, combined with good attitude.

I think we can do away with the need for a RW for another season if we don't get a Sacho-like player.. Greenwood is there and if we get another AM we could even play Bruno out on the wings. Especially if we invest in a good full back to provide the width.
We simply can't. Have you seen how dead the team looks? Next season is going to be an insane slog, we have to reinforce the team in that position, it's not a maybe its a must.
 
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