The last thing we should do when discussing Ole is compare him with Sir Alex.
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Ha! Yeah Poch's spurs always looked like they knew what they were doing against the top 6, especially away.
Its revisionism plain and simple.
Are you suggesting I lie when I say our players are playing better football this season?
Speak for yourself, the vote is currently in Ole’s favour so I’d suggest your in the deluded camp.
Your expectations of Spurs are lower than your expectations of United though.
You do realise that plays into your judgment?
Top 6 Record in the League:
Manager 1:
40.0% - Win
33.3% - Draw
26.7% - Loss
33.3% - Clean Sheets
Manager 2:
28.3% - Win
28.3% - Draw
43.4% - Loss
18.9% - Clean Sheets
One Manager is praised for being tactically very good and coaching the team well, the other is often accussed of being tactically dumb and not coaching the team. Naturally, Pochettino has to be Manager 1 right? Right?
Manager 1:
40.0% - Win
33.3% - Draw
26.7% - Loss
33.3% - Clean Sheets
Manager 2:
28.3% - Win
28.3% - Draw
43.4% - Loss
18.9% - Clean Sheets
One Manager is praised for being tactically very good and coaching the team well, the other is often accussed of being tactically dumb and not coaching the team. Naturally, Pochettino has to be Manager 1 right? Right?
Probably fair comment. Everyone looks better on Match of the Day
If Ole was a free agent, I don't even know if Derby County would hire him.Top 6 Record in the League:
Manager 1:
40.0% - Win
33.3% - Draw
26.7% - Loss
33.3% - Clean Sheets
Manager 2:
28.3% - Win
28.3% - Draw
43.4% - Loss
18.9% - Clean Sheets
One Manager is praised for being tactically very good and coaching the team well, the other is often accussed of being tactically dumb and not coaching the team. Naturally, Pochettino has to be Manager 1 right? Right?
He did alright against Pep in two legs.
Probably. When’s the last time we’ve played good football?
I understand the criticism of Ole but I feel it's unbased.
No, we are not suddenly winning the league and into the final of the champion league but have we been for the last seven or eight years?
He's brought in good players and shipped out a lot of the crap.
To me we strongly feel like a work in progress but a progress that is happening rather than stagnating.
Our front line is still very young and already very talented. Imagine if they keep on growing for the next five to six years. We could have three world beaters right at the front.
As for midfielders...well how long did Sir Alex get away with such a mediocre midfield?
No, we are not suddenly winning the league and into the final of the champion league but have we been for the last seven or eight years?
He's brought in good players and shipped out a lot of the crap.
To me we strongly feel like a work in progress but a progress that is happening rather than stagnating.
Our front line is still very young and already very talented. Imagine if they keep on growing for the next five to six years. We could have three world beaters right at the front.
As for midfielders...well how long did Sir Alex get away with such a mediocre midfield?
I certainly agree that Ole has done well in his first full season and no-one should do anything other than back him. The test was champions' league qualification and he met it.One Manager is praised for being tactically very good and coaching the team well, the other is often accussed of being tactically dumb and not coaching the team. Naturally, Pochettino has to be Manager 1 right? Right?
I just don't think he is a great strategist or coach and that will become apparent, if it isn't already.
That's fine to assume that about Ole, but do not in any way assume Pochettino was good at this. He was abysmal, like seriously, awful. David Moyes awful (yes i'm going there).
Ole's already got the same amount of away wins against the top 6 in 7 games compared to Pochettino's 28! On top of that, in those 28 games, Pochettino managed 1, yes ONE clean sheet. Ole has already got 2. Pochettinos team conceded on average 1.9 goals a game!
Oh c'mon. In his 5 seasons at Spurs he got Cl qualification four times. He missed it by one place - in his first season. That would be good for any club bar City. Way better than us in the same period. Moyes couldn't get CL if his life depended on it.
Spurs wasn't blessed with big budget. Was it just luck?
I'm sorry, but your post below states the following:
Yet i've just shown you clear proof that when it came to the big games when tactics really do matter. Pochettino was shit, like super, super shit. Winning 3 games in 5 and a half seasons. You can't state a Manager is tactically superior when the stats clearly suggest the opposite. I'm pretty sure if you checked David Moyes record against the top 6 at Everton, he would be able to match 3 away wins.
Stats - Top 6 League Away Games | Pochettino | Ole |
|---|---|---|
Games | 28 | 7 |
Goals Scored | 31 | 6 |
Goals Conceded | 53 | 8 |
Clean Sheets | 1 | 2 |
Wins | 3 | 3 |
Draws | 9 | 1 |
Losses | 16 | 3 |
Win % | 10.7% | 42.9% |
Draw % | 32.1% | 14.3% |
Loss % | 57.1% | 42.9% |
Goals Per Game | 1.1 | 0.9 |
Goals Conceded Per Game | 1.9 | 1.1 |
Here's the total record of the Top 6 League Games as well in case you're interested:
| Stats - Top 6 League Games | Pochettino | Ole |
|---|---|---|
Games | 53 | 15 |
Goals Scored | 70 | 17 |
Goals Conceded | 78 | 14 |
Clean Sheets | 10 | 5 |
Wins | 15 | 6 |
Draws | 15 | 5 |
Losses | 23 | 4 |
Win % | 28.3% | 40.0% |
Draw % | 28.3% | 33.3% |
Loss % | 43.4% | 26.7% |
Goals Per Game | 1.3 | 1.1 |
Goals Conceded Per Game | 1.5 | 0.9 |
Pochettino was able to build a very good squad to take on poor teams, but failed epicly against the big boys when it truly mattered. Which is probably why he won sweet feck all.
Only in this forum do people actually believe Ole is a better coach than Poch and that Ole’s teams play better football. These are also the guys we are suppose to take inspiration from when seeing what we can’t see in Ole. Great stuff.
PfffffHe did alright against Pep in two legs.
Very true
Can we use the player quality excuse and the depth excuse for Poch as well?
I take it you don’t pay to watch football?
We were feckin electric after the restart playing the best football in the league and since that restart we’ve won more points (21) than any team in the league other than City (level on 21)
Use your eyes, stop stamping your feet for the new hipster manager because you believe you deserve better than Ole and most of all stop calling people liars as a result of your own lack of vision.
Poch has a shocking record in the crunch games against the big teams and the top 6 in the PL in general..Very true
These are the games that matter and he's flattered to deceive because your expectations of Spurs are so low.
He’s a serial bottler who’s won the square root of feck all. Big jobs are changing hands and he’s not getting a sniff.
Good coach. I’m not denying that, but that good coaching has won him nothing yet.
I’m not actually that fan. I don’t know what a hipster manager is
.Come on man there’s no lack of vision. He’s been here 18 months and quite frankly we look no better than when he had his first purple patch. In all honestly we played better football then. But I don’t want to sound like I’m creditless he has done a good job to get us In the champions league. In normal employment he deserves another season.
Ole is now better manager than Poch? Seriously? Bloody hell
probably right
If you take 1 minute to read it, you would know. I give up. Ignore me and carry on.
That's not the question.
The question is what proof is there that Poch is better, given his teams rarely beat another team supposedly better than them.
Ha ha. Insane. Just insane.
1) Is that which proves who is better manager? That one category? Lets put everything aside and look at that?
2) It that stat even reliable? Ole had only one season in United and Poch had 4 in Spurs. Ole has better head to head stat with Pep. Is he then better than Pep?
3) What about Cardiff and Saints era? Why not compare that?
I can compare Sancho and James and find one stat where James is better. Hell, i bet you that i can prove you even that Chong is better than Messi.
If/when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer gets fired he will end in Norway or Championship. Lets see where Poch will end.
One stat?Ha ha. Insane. Just insane.
1) Is that which proves who is better manager? That one category? Lets put everything aside and look at that?
2) It that stat even reliable? Ole had only one season in United and Poch had 4 in Spurs. Ole has better head to head stat with Pep. Is he then better than Pep?
3) What about Cardiff and Saints era? Why not compare that?
I can compare Sancho and James and find one stat where James is better. Hell, i bet you that i can prove you even that Chong is better than Messi.
If/when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer gets fired he will end in Norway or Championship. Lets see where Poch will end.
How your team performs against teams of the same level or higher over 4 years is somehow an irrelevant statistic.
Go on type more smilies. Hopefully it makes you feel better.
First 59 Premier League Matches In Charge of Club:
Just throwing this up here as well. I'm guessing Pochettinos awful top 6 record is because of his awesome tactical nous.
Stats | Pochettino | Ole |
|---|---|---|
Total Points | 100 | 106 |
Goals For | 92 | 102 |
Goals Against | 70 | 61 |
Goal Difference | +22 | +41 |
Just throwing this up here as well. I'm guessing Pochettinos awful top 6 record is because of his awesome tactical nous.
It is not irrelevant. Did i say that it is irrelevant? I said that it is ridiculous to judge who is better based on one stat. And that stat is also questionable because Ole had too much less games than Poch.
But yeah, think what you want.
That's a damning table and a large sample size for all the Poch supporters. You have to say Poch had better players to work with for most of those matches also.First 59 Premier League Matches In Charge of Club:
Just throwing this up here as well. I'm guessing Pochettinos awful top 6 record is because of his awesome tactical nous.
But I suppose I am being a little unfair comparing Ole current Top 6 record against Pochettinos entire Tottenham career. I'll compare his first 15 top 6 games instead.
Hmm, nevermind.
| Stats - Top 6 League Games | Pochettino | Ole |
|---|---|---|
| Games | 15 | 15 |
| Goals Scored | 16 | 17 |
| Goals Conceded | 25 | 14 |
| Clean Sheets | 3 | 5 |
| Wins | 3 | 6 |
| Draws | 5 | 5 |
| Losses | 7 | 4 |
| Win % | 20.0% | 40.0% |
| Draw % | 33.3% | 33.3% |
| Loss % | 46.7% | 26.7% |
| Goals Per Game | 1.1 | 1.1 |
| Goals Conceded Per Game | 1.7 | 0.9 |
Hmm, nevermind.
How your team performs against every other team at the same level or higher is not 'one stat'. We're not talking about defensive actions per 90 here.
You called me insane for bringing it up which is frankly laughable.
If you actually paid any attention you'd notice I framed it as a question, one which I think is worthy of discussion, not a judgement.
You've lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned.
First of all i didn't call you insane. Ok? I never insult a poster who has different opinion than me. For me it is insane to say that that one manager is better than another based on one stat.
It's the trendy up and coming manager who typically has done ok in a league like the bundesliga playing a brand of football that's fashionable, perhaps with attaching fullbacks and a high press - oooffff suits you sir!I’m not actually that fan. I don’t know what a hipster manager is
Come on man there’s no lack of vision. He’s been here 18 months and quite frankly we look no better than when he had his first purple patch. In all honestly we played better football then. But I don’t want to sound like I’m creditless he has done a good job to get us In the champions league. In normal employment he deserves another season.
Ya know, somebody who is totally unproven in the Premier league, the most intense league in the world. Somebody who has almost always won nothing.
Somebody who will take us in a totally different direction with their approach, spend hundreds of millions, somebody we can risk the first piece of legitimate progress in the last dismal 7 years on.
C'mon enlighten me. Poch? Nagelsmann?
The figures do not lie and your point has merit. We are, conversely, supersh1t against lesser teams and quite good against top 6. We play on the break but have no clue when teams park the bus, to overstate the case a bit.
I would say Poch played to a system of high press that most average teams couldn't live with. It was the system that won those games. Like what Klopp and Pep do, except they have better players too. But when Spurs were faced with better players the wheels came off.
That is exactly the manager we need to compete for the title. Because we already have access to good players. We potentially have what he needs and vice versa.
For me - and this is just an opinion - Ole is a cul-de-sac. We build a squad around his tactics, we will just have to rebuild it again when it becomes clear it is all out of date. De Gea is a classic example. Best goalie in the world at what he does (or he was for a while and will be again) and I'm glad to have him, but even on top form there's no way Pep or Klopp would take him even if you paid them to. He's outdated.
finished 2nd in the league ahead of Liverpool, United, City etc and reached a CL final. Ole needs to add more to his CV.
First 59 Premier League Matches In Charge of Club:
Just throwing this up here as well. I'm guessing Pochettinos awful top 6 record is because of his awesome tactical nous.
How much did Poch get to invest in his Spurs team in his 1st 59 games to achieve this? (3 transfer windows)
Poch was limited to just 27 mill gross in season one with a net spend of minus 10 million.
By his 3rd transfer window he had spent 77 million gross with a net of + 10 million. (working on scraps)
Ole has had nearly 200 million gross with a net of 130+
One manager can sign players for 80 million here, 60 million there. the other manager had a record signing of 27 million during this period and had to pick up unknowns. But the one who has spent huge, to get worse result is the better manager? (spurs finished 5th and 3rd to our 6th and 3rd)
could Ole even do anything under the same conditions? I doubt it, where as I am certain Poch would do better if given the financial freedom to literally make big acquisitions, if he has gaps in his team.
I was asking a question I think is relevant to the conversation.
I notice you didn't actually address my post at all. You've brought up another didn't-quite-make-it stat.
If Ole finishes up with no trophies and a few top 4 finishes then yeah he won't have been a success and neither was Poch.
True but you have to take into the fact that Spurs we operating under limitations that limited their ability to compete. If you see how their rivals were spending, you cannot pretend having financial freedom to enhance your squad, does not play into it. If Pep could not spend how much he does each season, he would probably have no trophies and throw a tantrum like Jose. The reality is United have the power to compete with the big boys in terms of adding to our squad and filling gaps, so the main separating factor will be the coach. I did not feel that way with Spurs as I know Levy puts ropes around his coaches' hands. Truth be told, I was surprised they even lasted that long......
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