Let's get things in perspective (Post Palace and Luton)

[Member 113277]

This thread welcomes all opinions.

We had an absolute shocker v Palace and it's not irrelevant as a top class team doesn't drop points like that. The team did enough to beat Luton, yesterday evening in a different competition - whilst I believe that we should try hard in all competitions, that doesn't mean playing the full first team and yesterday was a slightly ugly performance (until the subs came on), but did the job.

So, isn't it time we recognise that aiming to be #1 or 2 this year is unrealistic, but equally be honest that we need to end the season with a team that performs more consistently and wins more than we did last season?

3rd again or 4th (as we pipped Chelsea on GD, so it was very close), with a more consistent performance, win a domestic cup and make it through to the knock out stage of the ECL would strike me as being demonstrable proof of progress - what do others think?

 

[Fosu-Mens]

This thread welcomes all opinions.

We had an absolute shocker v Palace and it's not irrelevant as a top class team doesn't drop points like that. The team did enough to beat Luton, yesterday evening in a different competition - whilst I believe that we should try hard in all competitions, that doesn't mean playing the full first team and yesterday was a slightly ugly performance (until the subs came on), but did the job.

So, isn't it time we recognise that aiming to be #1 or 2 this year is unrealistic, but equally be honest that we need to end the season with a team that performs more consistently and wins more than we did last season?

3rd again or 4th (as we pipped Chelsea on GD, so it was very close), with a more consistent performance, win a domestic cup and make it through to the knock out stage of the ECL would strike me as being demonstrable proof of progress - what do others think?

How people thought that we could challenge for the title this year, with or without Sancho, was even close to being realistic is blind belief and naivety in their truest form.

Demonstrable proof of progress:
1. Understand that creating chances and scoring goals purely based on individual actions and coincidences belongs to a bygone era at the highest level. Dominating games by owning the ball, a cohesive high press and creating chances from "drilled cohesive actions" in 80+% of our games is a must. Find the coaches/managers that can do this and appoint them, and we are on the right track.

or

2. Short term pain for long term gain: Have such a bad season that the Glazers sells the club. I would not be against relegation battle if that is what it takes.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Top four is the target and I expect the club to finish there this season, however it could be a big challenge as the teams below us have strengthened. Progress this season would be winning a trophy with top four, it is achievable if we get the luck of the draw. Will we build on this though? I don't want to turn this into another Woodward / Glazer thread but ultimately we are stuck in this rut.

 

[RashyForPM]

How people thought that we could challenge for the title this year, with or without Sancho, was even close to being realistic is blind belief and naivety in their truest form.

Demonstrable proof of progress:
1. Understand that creating chances and scoring goals purely based on individual actions and coincidences belongs to a bygone era at the highest level. Dominating games by owning the ball, a cohesive high press and creating chances from "drilled cohesive actions" in 80+% of our games is a must. Find the coaches/managers that can do this and appoint them, and we are on the right track.

or

2. Short term pain for long term gain: Have such a bad season that the Glazers sells the club. I would not be against relegation battle if that is what it takes.

Agree, but not just a relegation battle. We’ll need relegation for the club to lose such a shit ton of fairweather fans, TV revenue and gate receipts that we start to make massive losses (obviously nowhere near the point of insolvency and bankruptcy) that they are forced to sell. Then, new owners will arrive and sack Woodward and Judge.

Honestly mate, if someone offered me that right now, I’d bite their hand off. Even if we take two years to get promoted. A real vast rebuild is needed at this club, so let’s start from the root problem.

 

[Gythio]

Ofcourse 3rd or 4th this year is a reasonable goal considering the circumstances and the fact that our rivals simply have better squads.

But quite frankly i’m just tired of it, barely scraping by to get fourth or not, year after year, and see that as progress. I want a real title challenge, to still be in the race come april, that’s what i will call a succesful season. We are not arsenal ffs

 

[Wicked_Badger]

Agree, but not just a relegation battle. We’ll need relegation for the club to lose such a shit ton of fairweather fans, TV revenue and gate receipts that we start to make massive losses (obviously nowhere near the point of insolvency and bankruptcy) that they are forced to sell. Then, new owners will arrive and sack Woodward and Judge.

Honestly mate, if someone offered me that right now, I’d bite their hand off. Even if we take two years to get promoted. A real vast rebuild is needed at this club, so let’s start from the root problem.

You’d bite someone’s hand off to get relegated?

 

[youmeletsfly]

Agree, but not just a relegation battle. We’ll need relegation for the club to lose such a shit ton of fairweather fans, TV revenue and gate receipts that we start to make massive losses (obviously nowhere near the point of insolvency and bankruptcy) that they are forced to sell. Then, new owners will arrive and sack Woodward and Judge.

Honestly mate, if someone offered me that right now, I’d bite their hand off. Even if we take two years to get promoted. A real vast rebuild is needed at this club, so let’s start from the root problem.

I'm sure you're angry but this club being relegated would mean the end of its commercial attractiveness, the only thing that makes money.

 

[RashyForPM]

You’d bite someone’s hand off to get relegated?

I meant as part of a mass rebuild where we get back to winning big titles in 6-7 years. New ownership could bring this club a long way.

I'm sure you're angry but this club being relegated would mean the end of its commercial attractiveness, the only thing that makes money.

Yes obviously emotion plays a part in me saying things like this but I do believe what I am saying too. New ownership could bring new commercial attractive AND actual success (not getting 66 points and wetting ourselves because we made ‘progress’). What’s more, we’re weeding the fairweather fans out.

 

[STYLOISRED]

Our attack is Inconsistent and our defence needs extra work. End of.

 

[youmeletsfly]

I meant as part of a mass rebuild where we get back to winning big titles in 6-7 years. New ownership could bring this club a long way.

Yes obviously emotion plays a part in me saying things like this but I do believe what I am saying too. New ownership could bring new commercial attractive AND actual success (not getting 66 points and wetting ourselves because we made ‘progress’). What’s more, we’re weeding the fairweather fans out.

I get you. You feel revolution will trigger the higher ups to leave as evolution is too slow.(jeez this sounds funny)

But hell nah I wouldn't want to see united relegated. I'd have Liverpool fans camping outside my house each day just for the god damn morning shit jokes.

 

[RashyForPM]

I get you. You feel revolution will trigger the higher ups to leave as evolution is too slow.(jeez this sounds funny)

But hell nah I wouldn't want to see united relegated. I'd have Liverpool fans camping outside my house each day just for the god damn morning shit jokes.

Mate one of my pool mates just texted our group ‘HA HA HA’ when the Palace pen was retaken. I know what you mean. I’d take the collective hammering us United fans would take for a change in the higher ups and ultimate success though. Even if we are off our perch for a few years and they overtake us. We stand a better chance of getting them back with new owners.

Having said that though, I’ll support the lads in every game. I’m just saying that relegation would not be the worst thing that can happen to this club.

 

[POF]

Perception and momentum are huge in football. Liverpool showed some signs of progress and then went big for Van Dijk and Allison.

They go on to win the Champions League and Premier League in successive seasons. Now they're a team that can attract a Champions League winning midfielder in his prime.

Last summer, United decided that they needed a culture shift, a huge clear out of top earning and big money stars to replace with the right characters. They culled a number of players and have signed 4 permanent first teamers (James is a kid and Igalho is on loan) in 3 transfer windows.

After the disastrous window last summer where they went into the season with no depth in attack, they seemed like they learned a lesson in January. Spent big on Bruno and ended the season with real momentum and Champions League football.

3 or 4 top class signings and this would be an exciting squad raring to go for the season. But they've done it again. Utter incompetence at a leadership level. All momentum gained from the end of last season is frittering away.

You've got to strike when the iron is hot. Recruit quality when you're a team that appears to be on the up and it will come to fruition.

Senior management has let Ole down again and unless they can pull a couple of rabbits out of a hat, it could be a long season.

 

[youmeletsfly]

Mate one of my pool mates just texted our group ‘HA HA HA’ when the Palace pen was retaken. I know what you mean. I’d take the collective hammering us United fans would take for a change in the higher ups and ultimate success though. Even if we are off our perch for a few years and they overtake us. We stand a better chance of getting them back with new owners.

Having said that though, I’ll support the lads in every game. I’m just saying that relegation would not be the worst thing that can happen to this club.

I know how it is, believe me. When they got the title earlier this year I came home and my entire bed was covered in fecking Liverpool sheets, absolutely atrocious.

I think relegation is a bit too far, but a 12th to 15th finish should kinda wake some people up.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Perception and momentum are huge in football. Liverpool showed some signs of progress and then went big for Van Dijk and Allison.

They go on to win the Champions League and Premier League in successive seasons. Now they're a team that can attract a Champions League winning midfielder in his prime.

Last summer, United decided that they needed a culture shift, a huge clear out of top earning and big money stars to replace with the right characters. They culled a number of players and have signed 4 permanent first teamers (James is a kid and Igalho is on loan) in 3 transfer windows.

After the disastrous window last summer where they went into the season with no depth in attack, they seemed like they learned a lesson in January. Spent big on Bruno and ended the season with real momentum and Champions League football.

3 or 4 top class signings and this would be an exciting squad raring to go for the season. But they've done it again. Utter incompetence at a leadership level. All momentum gained from the end of last season is frittering away.

You've got to strike when the iron is hot. Recruit quality when you're a team that appears to be on the up and it will come to fruition.

Senior management has let Ole down again and unless they can pull a couple of rabbits out of a hat, it could be a long season.

We are miles behind in regards to how to play football. So even with better players, we would not be able to challenge.
Not to say that OGS has not been let down (as it seems) by the higher ups.

 

[POF]

We are miles behind in regards to how to play football. So even with better players, we would not be able to challenge.
Not to say that OGS has not been let down (as it seems) by the higher ups.

United played some wonderful football pre and post lockdown. You could argue that they were the form team in the league.

But, they didn't have the depth to keep it going and their talisman and catalyst for the recovery was so run into the ground that he could hardly move by the end of the season.

Add another couple of forwards to keep everyone fresh and on their toes and this is a really good team. A few weeks of Mata, Lingard and James and all momentum is gone.

 

[Verminator]

The Glazers would be more likely to sell or float, at a high than at a low.
It is how businessmen make money.
Getting relegated would tighten their grip, and empty the coffers.

 

[soapythecat]

Agree, but not just a relegation battle. We’ll need relegation for the club to lose such a shit ton of fairweather fans, TV revenue and gate receipts that we start to make massive losses (obviously nowhere near the point of insolvency and bankruptcy) that they are forced to sell. Then, new owners will arrive and sack Woodward and Judge.

Honestly mate, if someone offered me that right now, I’d bite their hand off. Even if we take two years to get promoted. A real vast rebuild is needed at this club, so let’s start from the root problem.

FML. I’ve had a meltdown myself post Palace but this is prime time shit!!

 

[RashyForPM]

FML. I’ve had a meltdown myself post Palace but this is prime time shit!!

Tell me what’s so bad about it.

 

[Kostov]

As long as we have the current ownership and management don't expect to compete for the highest awards. They lack the ambition and are more interested in sucking money out of the club. In order to compete this season we need at least 3 addition of the highest quality, we will bring neither and that tells you the ownership stance.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Think what we can aim for, realistically, is 3rd or 4th - which is what our owners want. But it all depends on other teams screwing up more than us. A Europa spot is more likely, if others don't screw up.
And regarding the cups, I think we will not win any.

 

[gerdm07]

I agree with OP but I would add that I expect (hope) that we will be in the fight for the title until at least January or February.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

United played some wonderful football pre and post lockdown. You could argue that they were the form team in the league.

But, they didn't have the depth to keep it going and their talisman and catalyst for the recovery was so run into the ground that he could hardly move by the end of the season.

Add another couple of forwards to keep everyone fresh and on their toes and this is a really good team. A few weeks of Mata, Lingard and James and all momentum is gone.

All based on individual performances by players being allowed to get the ball with space around them in the middle. Remove the space, remove the threat. Our modus operandi was giving it to Bruno in the middle and hope that he finds a player/makes something. And after we got the first goal, we could do what we actually are decent at: Counter.

As stated by some posters here before: basing your attacking play on individual performances rather than drilled cohesive actions is not going to work over time and at the highest level. Sure, we can get the counter attacking win against Liverpool and City this season, but what about the 10 teams that will park the bus against us? That is 20 games where we will rely on individualistic moments to score and create chances. Like the use of data analytics, we are miles behind the best.

 

[eire-red]

Perception and momentum are huge in football. Liverpool showed some signs of progress and then went big for Van Dijk and Allison.

They go on to win the Champions League and Premier League in successive seasons. Now they're a team that can attract a Champions League winning midfielder in his prime.

Last summer, United decided that they needed a culture shift, a huge clear out of top earning and big money stars to replace with the right characters. They culled a number of players and have signed 4 permanent first teamers (James is a kid and Igalho is on loan) in 3 transfer windows.

After the disastrous window last summer where they went into the season with no depth in attack, they seemed like they learned a lesson in January. Spent big on Bruno and ended the season with real momentum and Champions League football.

3 or 4 top class signings and this would be an exciting squad raring to go for the season. But they've done it again. Utter incompetence at a leadership level. All momentum gained from the end of last season is frittering away.

You've got to strike when the iron is hot. Recruit quality when you're a team that appears to be on the up and it will come to fruition.

Senior management has let Ole down again and unless they can pull a couple of rabbits out of a hat, it could be a long season.

100% momentum is huge in football, or actually in all walks of life. Be it educational qualifications, promotions at work, having momentum behind you is huge.

This is the second time in recent memory we've come to a point where real leadership and decisive decision making is needed to bridge the gap. This season, and Jose's third season.

As you said, on both occasions the seeming inability of our board to make aggressive decisions to bring us back to the top have caused our momentum to dwindle, leaving a bad taste in the mouth, much like summer of 2018.

What's even more infuriating is that things went wrong when we didn't sign Maguire in 2018, but signed him a year later, but after a torrid season where all the previous good work had been undone. We're now facing a similar situation with Sancho.

I guarantee we'll have the cash to splash next season if we finish 5th, to get us back in those CL spots, but what we're doing is spending money but going nowhere.

What's so important is not just how much you spend, but when and who. Market timing is critical, we're not investing when the time is right, when the potential gains are greatest. We're stuck in a never ending loop of: one step forward > don't invest > fall short of expectations > invest again.

It just seems so obvious, and that's the hardest thing to take right now. Recruitment is the hardest part of the game, but we're not just getting the who wrong at times, we're also getting the when and how much. We must look so naive to other clubs, no wonder we get taken on a ride every summer.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Agree, but not just a relegation battle. We’ll need relegation for the club to lose such a shit ton of fairweather fans, TV revenue and gate receipts that we start to make massive losses (obviously nowhere near the point of insolvency and bankruptcy) that they are forced to sell. Then, new owners will arrive and sack Woodward and Judge.

Honestly mate, if someone offered me that right now, I’d bite their hand off. Even if we take two years to get promoted. A real vast rebuild is needed at this club, so let’s start from the root problem.

 

[Grande]

I meant as part of a mass rebuild where we get back to winning big titles in 6-7 years. New ownership could bring this club a long way.

Yes obviously emotion plays a part in me saying things like this but I do believe what I am saying too. New ownership could bring new commercial attractive AND actual success (not getting 66 points and wetting ourselves because we made ‘progress’). What’s more, we’re weeding the fairweather fans out.

While I get the emotion and would also prefer owners who invest rather than withdraw, and who hire competent sports people rather than friend bankers, going bust to go big is perhaps more wishful thinking than realistic. Ask our fellow United friends of Leeds and Newcastle what relegation did for them lately.

Contrary to you, I don’t see our currentownership model as too different from most ownership models. We do spend money. The football club has been run badly, the squad and the academy has been run badly, the women’s side were closed down ... where to begin ... yet I do see proof of improved running of the club on many levels. Now even squad building and maintenance seems to move (albeit slooowly) in the right direction, academies, reserves and recruitment looks on the rise, we’ve got a women’s team to be proud of rising like a Phoenix ... and our men’s team has been improving (two steps forward, one back etc ...) in terms of player style playing style general feel and results.

So I’ve got a lot of time for this now, for the first time in years. I think if the owners continue to back Solskjær with the right players and the right people, we’ll see how far we can get in a couple of seasons.If we stagnate or regress on the playing field and we want to try out another manager later, my perhaps unrealistic wish is that Solskjær is promoted to a DoF or Technical Director role for a managers salary, as I believe he’d be the best candidate for that role in the world. Maybe apart from Casey Stoney.

 

[glazed]

This thread welcomes all opinions.

3rd again or 4th (as we pipped Chelsea on GD, so it was very close), with a more consistent performance, win a domestic cup and make it through to the knock out stage of the ECL would strike me as being demonstrable proof of progress - what do others think?

3rd or 4th would mean we had stood still - which I would consider a good result all things considered. Don't care about domestic cups very much. Getting through to the knock out stage of the ECL would be welcome but kind of depends on our group really. The manner of the progression and getting past the first knock out stage would be more telling.

 

[Offsideagain]

If our ambition is to finish top four, which I believe it is , then it just demonstrates how the owners and board are thinking. In other words, just do enough to keep the coffers full and pay dividends to the Glazers and hope for the best. Liverpool had no such ambition, they wanted to win the title. It took four years but Klopp,was backed by his board and they dropped in lucky selling Coutinho for £135m which helped. We’ve been seven years ‘rebuilding’. In that time, the aura of the club has diminished, our credibility in the transfer market has sunk to new lows and we are on our fourth Manager since Fergy retired. If they sack Ole before Christmas, we will start all over again. Unless some sugar daddy turns up or the Glazers decide to sell (unlikely) it will just go on and on and the title will only be a dream.

 

[SirMattlives]

I remember the last relegation, not sure I'd want to go through that again even if it did rid us of the Glazers. I understand the anger, believe me, especially when I see games like Palace, but I also feel we as fans really have no idea what is going on transfer wise. There's lots of speculation, apparently we were all in on Sancho and are too stupid to notice there are other needs or that time is running out. I don't buy it. It makes for good news reporting cycles to trot out the United tales but how much of this is based on anything but gossip and speculation? It's like a pantomime audience, only instead of shouting 'he's behind you', we're all here shouting 'time's running out'. Only that's make-believe, I don't for a minute think folks at United aren't aware or aren't trying to improve the squad. Something is going on at the board level we don't know about for sure, but the suggestion that somehow we are the only club that doesn't understand modern transfer deals is hardly it. So realistically? I suspect we can continue as we were last Spring...decent form, top 4, some great moments, some crap where people point fingers at Lindelof, AWB or James etc, or blame Ole's tactics. Champs League could be good or a disaster...thats the problem, we are unreliable and vulnerable to injuries until we improve the squad. More of the same really. Relegation? not a chance.

 

[fezzerUTD]

Feels like LVG and Joses final year already. Struggling in the League Cup and starting poorly in the league (yes we are only 1 game in) with hardly no signings to go with.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Feels like LVG and Joses final year already. Struggling in the League Cup and starting poorly in the league (yes we are only 1 game in) with hardly no signings to go with.

We won 3-0

 

[Stacks]

This thread welcomes all opinions.

We had an absolute shocker v Palace and it's not irrelevant as a top class team doesn't drop points like that. The team did enough to beat Luton, yesterday evening in a different competition - whilst I believe that we should try hard in all competitions, that doesn't mean playing the full first team and yesterday was a slightly ugly performance (until the subs came on), but did the job.

So, isn't it time we recognise that aiming to be #1 or 2 this year is unrealistic, but equally be honest that we need to end the season with a team that performs more consistently and wins more than we did last season?

3rd again or 4th (as we pipped Chelsea on GD, so it was very close), with a more consistent performance, win a domestic cup and make it through to the knock out stage of the ECL would strike me as being demonstrable proof of progress - what do others think?

who thought we could come 1st or 2nd this year? we would need Neymar/Mbappe, Thiago, a great CB, 2 great FB to be in the convo. We lost and drew more than we won. 3rd and a cup was always my expectations

 

[Steven-UK]

The perspective is, that we could probably put both Messi and Ronaldo into this team, and we'd still be in freefall.

Something is seriously broken with Manchester United. Every player we buy is quickly brought down to a poor playing level. Look at Bruno as the latest victim, he has been atrocious for 6/7 games after a blistering start.

We are now in the champions league, and this was our best chance of signing some players of note - based on CL qualification (Van De Beek?, do me a favour...), but no, we yet again waste that chance, and prospective players will look at how dreadful we are currently, plus the start to this season, and think "no, thank you".

Why would any decent player want to join the club when they see how badly we are being managed?

Poor management of the club from top to bottom..

We also need some REAL leaders on that pitch.

 

[peridigm]

Top four is the target and I expect the club to finish there this season, however it could be a big challenge as the teams below us have strengthened. Progress this season would be winning a trophy with top four, it is achievable if we get the luck of the draw. Will we build on this though? I don't want to turn this into another Woodward / Glazer thread but ultimately we are stuck in this rut.

Expect can have many meanings. For instance, when I expect my kid to take out the garbage, it will be done as he always does it. Expecting United to finish top 4 is not a forgone conclusion anymore. I agree with the rest of your statement but would argue we should not be counting on luck to obtain our goals. I'm sure Ole expected the board to back him in the transfer window. He's been let down and I expect we will not finish top 4 as a result. Of course, there is another transfer window in 3 months. Maybe they will bring in a player or two. Ighalo's loan deal will expire and I doubt he is going to be signed on permanently. At least I hope he's not. Covid is going to continue to affect the sport and world and I doubt we'll see any significant spending anytime soon.

As for our performance against Palace vs Luton. The starting lineup vs both should have been enough to win comfortably. Yet we saw a labored and uninspired performance against Palace on our home opener. Inexcusable to lose to a team like Palace at home by that margin. Ole got the starting lineup wrong, as he's done before but the players let him down by not putting in the effort. It's 50/50 blame for me. I didn't watch the Luton match but reading the reports indicate we were garbage in the first half and only got going after Rashford, Martial, and Bruno were brought on. From my perspective, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our players approach the games. Too often we start balls to the wall then slack off and let the other team gain momentum. We then start playing again when it's often too late.

 

[Eli Zee]

2. Short term pain for long term gain: Have such a bad season that the Glazers sells the club. I would not be against relegation battle if that is what it takes.

I would watch every City / Liverpool game this season and skip all United's if it meant that the club would get it's shit together. Whether that takes the glazers leaving or not, idc. Just stop being awful.

 

[Stacks]

The perspective is, that we could probably put both Messi and Ronaldo into this team, and we'd still be in freefall.

Something is seriously broken with Manchester United. Every player we buy is quickly brought down to a poor playing level. Look at Bruno as the latest victim, he has been atrocious for 6/7 games after a blistering start.

We are now in the champions league, and this was our best chance of signing some players of note - based on CL qualification (Van De Beek?, do me a favour...), but no, we yet again waste that chance, and prospective players will look at how dreadful we are currently, plus the start to this season, and think "no, thank you".

Why would any decent player want to join the club when they see how badly we are being managed?

Poor management of the club from top to bottom..

Being in the champions league doesnt make top players flock to you. Players with ambition want to win things. Thats what we need to show. that we can win.

 

[Amadaeus]

Lowering United standards to match Ole standards I see. Even with Jose(who a lot of fans believe has lost it), finishing third or fourth with no trophies will be unacceptable. If we are to keep lowering our standards for Ole, we might as well sack him now. This team is more than capable of pushing for the title and winning trophies. Most fan agree that this is the best team we have had post sir Alex and our investment is over 1/4 of a billion pounds.

 

[hobbers]

3rd again or 4th (as we pipped Chelsea on GD, so it was very close), with a more consistent performance, win a domestic cup and make it through to the knock out stage of the ECL would strike me as being demonstrable proof of progress - what do others think?

Finishing third at the same distance from the top two wouldnt be progress, it'd be stagnation, although winning a trophy of course would be progress rather than collapsing in every semi final.

But I look at our squad, the front 3 options beyond Martial, Rashford and Greenwood, our shite and crocked centrebacks and our very mediocre crop of full backs and I don't see us repeating the trick and getting top four again.


We're going to go backwards this season as things stand, I think it's virtually guaranteed. I just wish Woodward, Judge AND Ole would all be the ones walking at the end of it, not just Ole.

Honestly I would not be surprised to see us struggling to stay ahead of Wolves and Everton, forget Spurs Arsenal and Chelsea.

 

[Ronaldo's Love Child]

This thread welcomes all opinions.

We had an absolute shocker v Palace and it's not irrelevant as a top class team doesn't drop points like that. The team did enough to beat Luton, yesterday evening in a different competition - whilst I believe that we should try hard in all competitions, that doesn't mean playing the full first team and yesterday was a slightly ugly performance (until the subs came on), but did the job.

So, isn't it time we recognise that aiming to be #1 or 2 this year is unrealistic, but equally be honest that we need to end the season with a team that performs more consistently and wins more than we did last season?

3rd again or 4th (as we pipped Chelsea on GD, so it was very close), with a more consistent performance, win a domestic cup and make it through to the knock out stage of the ECL would strike me as being demonstrable proof of progress - what do others think?

Anyone who even thinks we're challenging for #1 or #2 this season needs their head examining.

Top four is unlikely as the teams around us have all strengthened and added quality to their squads and let's not forget-we got 66 points last season, the same number of points as the season before so there was no clear progress made in terms of points hauled.

This is where I get worried as it isn't only the top teams that have strengthened but the teams from the top half of the table, Everton, Wolves etc.

Worst case scenario is our confidence collapses at some point and we struggle to stay in the top half. Best case scenario is we get 3rd or 4th but more down to the ineptitude of the teams around us.

 

[Stacks]

Lowering United standards to match Ole standards I see. Even with Jose(who a lot of fans believe has lost it), finishing third or fourth with no trophies will be unacceptable. If we are to keep lowering our standards for Ole, we might as well sack him now. This team is more than capable of pushing for the title and winning trophies. Most fan agree that this is the best team we have had post sir Alex and our investment is over 1/4 of a billion pounds.

We have shown little evidence of being able to push for a title in our current state. There has never been a time under any manager post Fergie where I thought we were in with a shout. No matter how many 20 game runs we go on, it always bursts and we revert to type. Do we have good players?
however I don't know if we have winners just yet since these guys haven.'t won anything for 3 years. its a bit Rawkish to claim we are title challenging. If everyone in our team is on form, we can win many games on the bounce but that isn't the same as a title challenege. If money wasn't an option, many here would uprade every single player in our starting line up or at least 7-9 of them so we still have much room to improve.

That said, if we had an insanely productive coach who got more than the sum of the individual parts then it MAY be possible to hit 80/85 points. I feel the title challenge bar is now 90 so everything would have to go perfectly all year around for us to have a hope.

 

[Foxbatt]

Look what Klopp did when he found out about Thomas Gronnemark, the throw in specialist. That's down to the manager to hire specialists like him.
Look at our coaching set up. None of them with any experience in top class coaching. Don't say Phelan because we know what happened after he got appointed as the assistant as our standard went down from when Quiroz was here.
There are 4 managers in the PL who have won the CL. Ours is not one. I feel Spurs is going to push into the top 4 position. We have City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton Spurs and us in fighting for the CL spots. There also could be an outsider pushing too.
At this moment in time I don't see us getting that spot.