How about the evidence that post lockdown, we were on top of the premier league table? We are definitely good enough, it just that we have a very streaky manager. Who can go on a very brilliant long run of good performance or victories, but then put on a shite performance out of nowhere and look much worse than Gary Neville as a manager. Ole is almost equivalent To Ralph hasenhüttl in that regards. It is hard to know what you can expect with him. But it seems to be getting more clearer as without significant investment, he gets easily found out.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
The reality is there for all to see against palace and Luton. We lost one because with all the talent we are collectively a poor team tactically and this is because there is no pattern or style to the play. We won the other through individual brilliance. Look at how virtually all the top teams play. Look how quick they break. Look at the passing. Now think back to how we performed for long periods in these 2 games. Coaching needs to be improved drastically. We can be carried by individual brilliance and we have got players who can click. Bruno brings out the best in the attack at times, but even he can't solely do it all the time. Hopefully VDB will as well. This is Oles big season and if we start to struggle early on I think he might be gone by xmas or maybe shuffled upstairs as a dof or whatever they want to call it.
It was one of the worst games to watch in recent history. It was an even game until the front 3 came on, come on!We won 3-0
Henderson made a top save to stop it being 1-1 mid to late second half. Put down your phone and try watch without getting bored.
The only thing I know is we need to win something this season. 4th trophyless season in a row will be a disaster.
I don't agree that getting 3rd again would be stagnation, even if finishing well bheind the top 2 - every season is unique and I think 75 points + will be needed for 3rd - what this will mean is scoring more and keeping tight in defence (conceding 3 in the 1st game is NOT what we need to achieve this).
Chelsea will be stronger this year, so will Arsenal and 8-4 will be very competitive.
It's an overeaction to say the season is stuffed after one bad game, but it ain't a great indicator, either - jury's out, for me.
We were the best team when Ole was at the wheel too. We also went on a longer run under Jose. So I guess every time we go on a run we are now title challengers? Man City and Liverpool basically their seasons ended at the beginning of the bubble.
In some ways you are correct in that we don't know the full potential of this current team but on the other hand I wouldn't use great form as the indicator because we have many false dawns over the years.
I agree with you. It's important to win trophies, even unfashionable ones, to develop the right mentaility. Winning breeds winners.
It is but it feels so similar to Jose's third season right now it's hard to believe.
When you have a transfer window as shit as we've just had, all it takes is 3-4 bad results and things can just turn to absolute shit. The only difference is Ole hasn't been burning bridges with the board.
Or the players.
How can we win when we cannot get the best out of the players we even have now? A world class manager would get this team to play a lot better than this for sure. We can have Sancho and Pancho but unless we get our set up and tactics and coaching right we are not going to win anything significant.
I think barring Chelsea, the teams below have haven't strengthened enough to compete. I think our first 11 is still far better than anything that Wolves, Everton, Spurs and Leicester have done. We should still have enough to keep these teams below us.
Everton has got a much better manager than us. At least on his stats alone as a player and a manager.
True, but he has been at clubs such as Real, Bayern, PSG and Chelsea recently where the calibre of player is slightly higher than what Everton can provide. I think they'll be a lot more competitive this season but, not enough for top 4.
I never expected to challenge for the title as currently constructed. I expected, assuming we bought Sancho, VdB, and a defender, to close the gap on points to the champions, and finish a comfortable 3rd. Mind you this was with us having Sancho, as I do believe we would have one of the better frontlines in Europe with those for on the receiving end of passes from our midfielders. For us to get back to title challenging, from a pure squad perspective, we would need Sancho, a top class CB to go with HM, a Matic replacement that plays his role a bit better, and a top attacking fullback on one side or the other. So something like (and this is just going muppet mode): Sancho, Upamecano, Tonali/Partey/Rice etc, and probably a fullback but I'm not up to speed on the best options available there.
As currently constructed and crossing my fingers for injuries to not hit us hard, I think we battle for 3rd or 4th again. People are doom and gloom currently from the shit window we had, but I think many underestimate how many more points a full year of a healthy front 3 with Pogba and Bruno behind will be worth. No the form won't be spotless like it was after the Bruno transfer, but I don't think it will be too far off as those 5 have a ton of goals in them. Obviously the squad depth is severely lacking in defense and attack, and our future will look really bleak with multiple injuries to starters in those positions.
As currently constructed and crossing my fingers for injuries to not hit us hard, I think we battle for 3rd or 4th again. People are doom and gloom currently from the shit window we had, but I think many underestimate how many more points a full year of a healthy front 3 with Pogba and Bruno behind will be worth. No the form won't be spotless like it was after the Bruno transfer, but I don't think it will be too far off as those 5 have a ton of goals in them. Obviously the squad depth is severely lacking in defense and attack, and our future will look really bleak with multiple injuries to starters in those positions.
What happens if we lose or draw to Brighton? We’ve been playing really poorly and barely picking up results through penalties and the form of Martial and Bruno. Both players started tapering off by the end of last season and we’ve currently just picked up where we left off. I don’t think we are going back to the brilliant post lockdown form we are most likely just going to continue our patchy end of season form and everyone will say we aren’t fit for the next few games. We are currently in a battle for top 4 and this year our opponents have all improved in key areas and wont mess up so easily and let us back in if we feck it up early doors. In this case it’s easy to be pessimistic. Our squad clearly needed help and upgrading to maintain top form and we’ve sat on our hands
I think Ancelotti and Mourinho experience is worth at least 5 extra points for their clubs. Wolves will be better than last year too. Without further reinforcements for Inited battle for 4th place Is open and will be fierce.
No doubt about that. However, I still think United are better equipped to do enough for top 4 even without recruitment.
I’m not so sure. Spurs seem to be doing brilliant business as Levy is allowing Mourinho to buy his type of players.
If they get Skriniar and can keep Bale fit I think Spurs could challenge Chelsea for 3rd.
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I agree with you on this. Jose is not going to self destruct this season. Maybe next season. So I feel that unless we get Sancho and top class CB we will be in trouble. I would get a world class CB before a right back.
The league is highly competitive. Also teams have strengthened. We have to be more balanced. Against Luton we really had nobody centred pulling the strings... too many runners. Edit: Just overcomplicating things
Come on if we had them both, we would be title challengers, Bruno, Pogba, Martial, Messi, Ronaldo would be lethal front 5. We are not that bad and on the way up, problem with we may go down without support.
Not only that, it will make the whole situation worse.
Most of the fans want the Glazers out so we can spend the money on the team, rather than have them pocket it.
Relegation will mean the end of our financial dominance. And while the Glazers might sell, it will be a catch 22. We will be skint and won't be able to spend big or attract big name players as well.
Absolutely this.
Let's forget Woodward and the Glazers for a second. If SAF was in charge and we would have spent the same amount of money, I assure you that we would have won at least 3PL titles and a couple fo CLs as well.
It goes a bit deeper than we need more money or we need new owners. We actually need a new club structure. Something we won't see as long as Woodward is in charge. And Woody being an adopted Glazer, he'll be around for as long as they are around.
Ole delivered a perfect 3rd for Glazer United. I don’t want to be that team with that being the height of their ambition. I support Manchester United- but where is it? Where is it’s up to date stadium? Where is it’s club dialogue with the fan base? Where is the club that Van Persie thought he was joining? That ex players remember? The poster who hopes Glazchester United get relegated won’t get his wish - they are too good for that.
On a good day they can beat the best. Ole and his team is learning their trade. I wish them well. But I understand the posters sense of disconnection.
On a good day they can beat the best. Ole and his team is learning their trade. I wish them well. But I understand the posters sense of disconnection.
As with all things in life, the answer lies not in the extremes but in the grey are in between.
1) The team is clearly not match fit. We're really kinda screwed by the match schedules here
2) The team is not as good as some people think it is. This is not a title challenging team.
3) There is no squad depth. The last few matches last season made it clear. Outside of the first 11, Ole doesn't trust that many other players.
4) We need a proper director of football or some other similar structure to oversee the football side of things. The chaotic manner we sign players and hire managers over the last 6 years expose how badly the club is run these days and how desperately we need proper football people to run things. I can only look on in envy at City with Begiristain and Liverpool with Edwards.
1) The team is clearly not match fit. We're really kinda screwed by the match schedules here
2) The team is not as good as some people think it is. This is not a title challenging team.
3) There is no squad depth. The last few matches last season made it clear. Outside of the first 11, Ole doesn't trust that many other players.
4) We need a proper director of football or some other similar structure to oversee the football side of things. The chaotic manner we sign players and hire managers over the last 6 years expose how badly the club is run these days and how desperately we need proper football people to run things. I can only look on in envy at City with Begiristain and Liverpool with Edwards.
We are run poorly no doubt about it but City aren't exactly run well at all and I would still reserve judgement on Liverpool with Edwards at the moment a Great manager at the helm can make every body look better than they actually are.
We will be fighting for 3/4. Probably 4th with a number of other teams. What we need to see is a higher points total. If it is about the same it means we are not making any progress whatsoever, if it is about the same, we might not even get 3/4 this time round. On top of the money lost through Covid it would be disastrous.
I am certain United will end up top 4 unless there is many injuries. I believe the Palace match was due to not having a pre season and no training together for the whole team. I believe United will pick up steam fast. Ole showed his class from Jan to July, unbeaten run. many here clearly dislikes him due to him not being a big name and thinks he is clueless based on what they read on forums and in dubious newspapers. Ole managed to coach Molde into doing well in the CL, beating Seville etc. He can make United top class given the transfers the squad needs. He coaches forwards on a high level and the forwards can bot attest to that and show results. Martial, Haaland etc. I am not worried about Ole and the coaching staff. I am merely worried about squad depth and quality. There is need for a RW and a classic no.9 imo, a replacement/addition for Lindelof and a LB. Maybe even a RB since I believe Bissaka lacks in delivery and technical prowess (but is very good at tackling, interception and gives it all). If there is no players other than Telles, maybe, coming in, I believe we will have a season similar to the previous one. If Ole manages better then he has really succeeded because it will be impossible to be top 2 with this squad since there is to little depth. It all will depend on injuries and fatique.
Fair enough. I wouldn't say they are perfect in transfers. Nobody is. I would say they at least have organisation in choosing consistent types of players and actually getting them.
Its over!
My Man Utd does not exist anymore.
Its been nearly 40 years of support and Ive seen a fair bit of great football and even greater players in that time. The best I've seen Cantona followed by Keane, Pallister, Irwin, Ferdinand, Scholes, Giggs, Hughes.
I was thinking the other day - would Roy Keane have an instagram account? Would it have been more important to him than on the field performance? Is that what the difference is today - to many distractions. All the above names were so focused on football and winning everything else was second and second was last as they say.
Add the new generation of superstars (not all of the current squad fall into this category - I think Bruno is a winner, so is williams, so is McT). Those guys would die in the new third UTD kit (another problem). Some of the others would hardly be prepared to break a sweat in the new kit. Over inflated wages to go with over inflated egos. And us fans expecting glory every season. Even Fergie had to build it from the ground up - it took 3 years to change the mentality and that was with the right players being added slowly to the mix.
I cant see UTD challenging again until we change the mentality of the players and that is a cultural thing - so Ole has to carefully bring in players who want to win above all else, want to win above getting followers on insta or likes on facebook. Who come in and dont negotitate rights images before they even kick a ball. He's in an incredibly tough position.
When players come to UTD - they need to think like they've just signed for palace or burnley - when they sign thats when the hard work should start not stop. You dont make it by getting to UTD - you make it by winning something at UTD.
I feel for Ole - I dont think the Glazers understand the club - we are just an asset on a balance sheet. Its heartbreaking but they wont sell us when they continue to make millions from us.The only time that will change is when the brand is more associated with losing than winning. And even then there'll be companies out there willing to sign on to be our official supplier of red sauce on matchdays......
Its over for me - My Man Utd doesnt exist no more.
My Man Utd does not exist anymore.
Its been nearly 40 years of support and Ive seen a fair bit of great football and even greater players in that time. The best I've seen Cantona followed by Keane, Pallister, Irwin, Ferdinand, Scholes, Giggs, Hughes.
I was thinking the other day - would Roy Keane have an instagram account? Would it have been more important to him than on the field performance? Is that what the difference is today - to many distractions. All the above names were so focused on football and winning everything else was second and second was last as they say.
Add the new generation of superstars (not all of the current squad fall into this category - I think Bruno is a winner, so is williams, so is McT). Those guys would die in the new third UTD kit (another problem). Some of the others would hardly be prepared to break a sweat in the new kit. Over inflated wages to go with over inflated egos. And us fans expecting glory every season. Even Fergie had to build it from the ground up - it took 3 years to change the mentality and that was with the right players being added slowly to the mix.
I cant see UTD challenging again until we change the mentality of the players and that is a cultural thing - so Ole has to carefully bring in players who want to win above all else, want to win above getting followers on insta or likes on facebook. Who come in and dont negotitate rights images before they even kick a ball. He's in an incredibly tough position.
When players come to UTD - they need to think like they've just signed for palace or burnley - when they sign thats when the hard work should start not stop. You dont make it by getting to UTD - you make it by winning something at UTD.
I feel for Ole - I dont think the Glazers understand the club - we are just an asset on a balance sheet. Its heartbreaking but they wont sell us when they continue to make millions from us.The only time that will change is when the brand is more associated with losing than winning. And even then there'll be companies out there willing to sign on to be our official supplier of red sauce on matchdays......
Its over for me - My Man Utd doesnt exist no more.
So our post-lockdown run means the team is good enough to challenge for the title, but our shite performances means Ole is not up to it? What kind of logic is that?
And imo its not so much an issue of a streaky manager, its rather an issue of streaky players. The average age of our attacking lineup for example (MMM) is only 21, they are going to be inconsistent. Then you have the likes of Pogba who fluctuates between world class and absolute rubbish and has done under other managers as well. Also i think we all can agree on three things:
1. Our first XI when firing on all cylinders can beat pretty much anyone
2. There are still holes in the squad and first XI that needs to be addressed
3. The drop off in quality between the first XI and second string players are severe. So while we got a big squad, we still lack depth
Also, as good as a signing Bruno was, the rebuild is far from over, still a lot of unanswered questions regarding the squad.
| Good enough for top 4 | Squad player/Big questions surrounding | Deadwood |
| Martial Greenwood Rashford Bruno AWB Maguire DDG/Hendo | Lindelof Shaw (too inconsistent, very injury prone) Williams Pogba (too inconsistent) McTomminay Baily (too inconsistent, very injury prone) Smalling Dalot Fosu-Mensah Tuanzebe Fred Matic (good, but old) Van Der Beek James | Jones Rojo Grant Mata Lindgard Pereira |
So we got one keeper, RB, one CB and the attacking line up sorted. Now you would argue Pogba belongs in the first column based on his talent, but its been a LONG time since he put in a a string of good performances for us.
How do you explain that Manchester United from the start of February to the end of the season, took more points in the PL than any other team? A broad part of those games, even without Pogba and Rashford. But we should just forget about that, and instead base our opinion on the last 2 games only?
I think it´s time to calm down a little.
That's not true though and it's even more obvious for Liverpool. Before Klopp, they were in the business for the likes of Downing, Balotelli, Carroll, Benteke and other Sakhos. Liverpool are no different to United in terms of organization they were shoddy before Klopp and have some of the worst transfers of the decade, even under Klopp they have Naby Keita but I'm on a tangent. Liverpool have not had consistent types of players, similarly to us which is why Klopp cleared out their team.
The same applies to City, they used to have a scattergun approach and brought all sorts of players until Guardiola arrived.
Perspective - when does the season get indefinitely postponed for Covid?
Really good post and I completely agree with the sentiment. I also agree with how frustrating it is when the club fails to invest after a successful season when they have momentum.
But, I really don't think the lack of investment is due to choice. I think it's simply down to incompetence and desperation. On the back of a successful season they seem more bullish and feel they're in a position of strength so feel they can negotiate the price, which seems to involve stalling and waiting as long as possible before paying way over the odds. But after a bad season, they're more desperate so pay over the odds sooner.
The club just seems really bad at identifying talent that is genuinely available which gives them leverage in negotiations. Van de Beek was as easy a deal as there was. Good value predetermined fee, former player as CEO of the selling club.
If they don't want to spend big money, why are they even going for Sancho? Sure, they might get a discount but even an amazing deal is still going to be circa €100m. There are cheaper options out there if they want to be frugal.
I genuinely think they want to sign players and they're certainly in for Sancho. They are just really really bad at it. Every club in Europe is laughing all the way to the bank when United come in for one of their players.
Some people don't want to accept how poor the squad was managed since SAF left and what a monumental job is to rebuild it to compete (and do it in style). Busby had the same job, twice, SAF did, Klopp did. Ole does now.
A club with a healthy vision and squad building ethos has to expect that a new manager must deliver even in the first year, maximum 2. We were not one of those clubs unfortunately and its nonsensical to think that we have been poorly managed and at the same time expect instant results; the 2 just don't go together. You either think the squad is great and the manager is shit because we are not challenging or you think the squad is shit and no matter the manager it will take a bit of time; chose a side people, you can't have both.
A club with a healthy vision and squad building ethos has to expect that a new manager must deliver even in the first year, maximum 2. We were not one of those clubs unfortunately and its nonsensical to think that we have been poorly managed and at the same time expect instant results; the 2 just don't go together. You either think the squad is great and the manager is shit because we are not challenging or you think the squad is shit and no matter the manager it will take a bit of time; chose a side people, you can't have both.
Every season there is a small section who hype up Everton and they are always shite. back to back 12th placed finishes despite huge investment.
I was particularly talking about these 2 games. Last season in 6 of the last 9 games we had the unknown quantity come in, the Bruno effect. Towards the end though either through tiredness or teams were catching on we started to stumble and our play wasnt so good. We will always win some matches through individual brilliance, but overall as a team we have started poorly. Compare that with Wanderers and City especially. Both had the same preseason as us.
At least give it a couple more weeks, shall we.
Ive just done a thread for the next 6 games
Side C - squad is decent (and can be great if they're in the right mood) and manager is decent.
Decent = just okay
Sorry but I don't think manager is good enough to turn this decent team into title deciding team. To be fair, he did his best so far but his weaknesses are clear and doesn't show any improvements as a manager. Our squad potential is huge but they're just not that motivated nor be in the best shape.
We had two great runs:
1. 18/19
When he first takeover, caretaker months mainly, but arguably that's more to do with the "new manager" effect, huge positive atmosphere compare to the drowning negativities previously. Happier and more motivated players will yield greater performances as they seek to impress. Our squad at that time are that good with top quality players (Herrera, Lukaku <-- can't deny his scoring skills, Pogba attacking in 433) then we got rid of them later on. Get worse quickly, with poor end of the season.
2. 19/20
Early this year, with Bruno taking charge of on-field duties. Interestingly this dwindle down in latter months. This is more so the "new player" effects = new player are more likely to be motivated to perform and impress. James, AWB, Mag and Ighalo also the same thing, giving great performances the first few months after joining, then getting worse later months. Same with Williams. Only Greenwood seems to be keeping up his usual performance but then that's natural growth and he's not really yet a proven starter (Ole still bench him at times). Bruno's level is far ahead than the other, thus we had that great run.
Other than that, our run of performances are so dreadful, it's embarrassing to call it a Manchester United team. None of that runs has more to do with Ole's skills, just his contrasting character and managerial approach to the first run being a key factor. He couldn't keep it up later on didn't he. There are no other great runs until Bruno came in. Motivations/mentality and getting the best out of players are questionable.
Fitness problem is a known problem manager highlighted and mentioned from the very start... so it still being a problem is really bs. Bad job. I love the fact that we're still giving the "poor fitness" excuse to Ole and the players for three seasons now. It's amazing. I remember many posters said it's a process for Ole to turn this team into a high fitness team in the first season 18/19... so we need more time eh... rubbish. Fitness problem is specially exclusive to our team, with other PL teams not having that problem.
18/19 - bad fitness, blame Jose for not training fitness enough, not enough running, many injuries.
19/20 - still many injuries.... let's blame C19 break and the hectic schedule for the poor fitness of best 11. Also add our squad players, 2nd option players are not good enough. Ole's ability in rotating and motivating are not the problem. Fitness is the main problem.
20/21 - no match fitness, players not getting enough rest. Poor fitness.
Reaching treble semi-finals is good I suppose with this team and manager, but then the squad is actually that strong but just like always, couldn't reach the finish line. Manager is okay... but should we be fine with just okay?
We can still win trophies with the same manager... but it depends on us to get another player of Bruno calibre then hopefully we have enough lucks and players self-motivated enough to win trophies.