Just as we get some depth, people start questioning if we have too much 
McTominay and Fred, do we need both?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I think we probably have players coming through the youth who could be better than Mctom or Fred. Either that or we can certainly buy better. Fred cost £52 mill VDB £35 mill according to media. Now Fred is nowhere near VDB quality and I'm sure there are other midfielders out there under £40 mill who are better as well. If we can get £35 mill+ for Fred we should snap their hands off. Whoever wanted him, Mourinho or Woody, he has been a poor buy for the outlay and what he has done here.
We are stuck with Fred, unless we accept he’s going for a massive loss. He was never worth £50m when we bought him, we won’t get £35m for him, would be lucky to scrape £20m for him.
If we consider that we can get £20m for him, we might as well keep him, as hopefully he can be a useful squad player and he can build on his form from before lockdown.
We already had depth. Now we have players who should be playing football and will get better offers than getting 10 starts a season for us.Just as we get some depth, people start questioning if we have too much
We have an injury crisis and look short every year, plus always seem to have an atrocious bench.
Lingard, Pereira, Mata to cover our midfield. Great depth.
In a rotation setup you need bodies. Getting rid of either of these two weakens our squad. Better to keep in case we need them during the season, which I suspect we will.
Not in midfield. Last year was the first time we'd had a first choice CM out for a long period. Its usually in defence where Fred isnt going to help
Bumping this as we see yet again that McTominay is unable to fill the DM role in the side on the weekend.
Which brings up back to the point of wtf is the point of McTominay and Fred? This “amazing depth” people claim proves to be useless time after time due to the evident reason neither of them can actually play any of the roles we use in midfield. So what use are they outside the 20% of matches we play defensively? Why do we need two players to fill a role we only use on select occasions?
Get rid of one and get a midfielder actually capable of playing the role we need.
Loads of chat around us needing a DM, yet we have
Fernandes
Pogba
Vdb
Matic
Mctominay
Fred
For 3 positions. While depth is important it raises the original question again, and I think the answer more than ever is no. Mctominay and Fred are arguably not he right depth because neither are the best option for any position. Or arguably even fit that well. We need one gone to invest in another specialist DM to compete with and eventually replace matic.
Fernandes
Pogba
Vdb
Matic
Mctominay
Fred
For 3 positions. While depth is important it raises the original question again, and I think the answer more than ever is no. Mctominay and Fred are arguably not he right depth because neither are the best option for any position. Or arguably even fit that well. We need one gone to invest in another specialist DM to compete with and eventually replace matic.
I think we definitely need a specialist DM but I also think we need to give Fred a go this season. He was important in not letting our midfield get pressed into oblivion against Sevilla and with how many teams are now employing a high-press in the PL we should be looking to integrate him instead of Matic whose inability to press/resist the press and mobility is beginning to form big question marks over his place in the team.
They are good depth. Not sure what people are complaining about.
We all know why they're complaining. Their beloved managers job is in danger - we could've signed prime Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi and co this summer but the excuses would've still would've been out in abundance on why can't be expected to be in top 4 once again - not enough depth, too many primadonnas, too much depth, low morale, players weren't signed early, players were signed too early, the star signs aren't aligning.
The real reason is the man in charge is nowhere near good enough to achieve anything of note irrespective of the amount of talent at his disposal.
I would keep both Fred and McTominay over Pogba. Pogba is the real dead wood.
That is exactly what should have happened in this window because it's clear as day that Scott & Fred aren't capable of playing that defensive role we badly need
None of them are CDM for me.
We however need both. Van de Beek can cover as a CM but to me he is better playing alongside the front line as a CAM. He is a better version of what Lingard tries to do and a similar player to someone like Muller - I'm not sure if they can play CM to the standard required.
Bruno Fernandes has an ability to play CM better than most in my opinion because he has both the defensive ability, work rate as well as creative ability.
The problem is that Ole is only ever using the 4231 and has too many players playing deep & many of our midfielders look incompetent and not needed.
In a 433 we have only one CDM and the rest can play as 2 CM's or one CM and CAM. This highlights Matic as our only true CDM whilst Pogba, Fred, Mctomminay, Bruno, Van de beek and Mctomminay can play competing for 2 roles (6 players). We have 2 defensive minded CM in Fred & Mctomminay who should only cover CDM during an injury. We then have 4 attacking minded midfielders competing with each other.
It gives us an ability to adapt to the need of our midfield be it defensive or attacking- unfortunately we play a defensive formation with attacking players in such positions (Pogba as CDM).
However we need that world class CDM to take Matic's role. When we get that then Fred & Mctomminay can provide cover during injuries leaving us 3 players competing for CDM & 4 players competing for 2 attacking spots.
For a club like us that should be competing for the PL and CL; I dont think the squad depth is anything to compete about aslong as they are used accurately.
Mctomminay will act as a loyal squad player so I'm not too bothered by his game time either.
We however need both. Van de Beek can cover as a CM but to me he is better playing alongside the front line as a CAM. He is a better version of what Lingard tries to do and a similar player to someone like Muller - I'm not sure if they can play CM to the standard required.
Bruno Fernandes has an ability to play CM better than most in my opinion because he has both the defensive ability, work rate as well as creative ability.
The problem is that Ole is only ever using the 4231 and has too many players playing deep & many of our midfielders look incompetent and not needed.
In a 433 we have only one CDM and the rest can play as 2 CM's or one CM and CAM. This highlights Matic as our only true CDM whilst Pogba, Fred, Mctomminay, Bruno, Van de beek and Mctomminay can play competing for 2 roles (6 players). We have 2 defensive minded CM in Fred & Mctomminay who should only cover CDM during an injury. We then have 4 attacking minded midfielders competing with each other.
It gives us an ability to adapt to the need of our midfield be it defensive or attacking- unfortunately we play a defensive formation with attacking players in such positions (Pogba as CDM).
However we need that world class CDM to take Matic's role. When we get that then Fred & Mctomminay can provide cover during injuries leaving us 3 players competing for CDM & 4 players competing for 2 attacking spots.
For a club like us that should be competing for the PL and CL; I dont think the squad depth is anything to compete about aslong as they are used accurately.
Mctomminay will act as a loyal squad player so I'm not too bothered by his game time either.
We should of moved Fred on and got an actual #6. We only have Matic who can play that role.
There is too much sentiment from the club for that to have happened
I going to write this, though fans won't really like it.
The premise that we can play both Pogba & Bruno in the same team in 4-5-1 is false, it can't & won't work against any decent team.
Pogba isn't equipped with any defensive ability or discipline to play along side Matic, Matic can't cover the huge spaces left behind Bruno and Pogba, especially if one of the FB went up to support in attacking phase. It just doesn't work. You can't simply claim that you want to play a dynamic style with 3 midfielders, one wants to press high (Bruno) while the second is clueless (Pogba) and the third is slow (Matic) in the counter press or even in high press. Let's not forget that our CB is slow as well (Maguire is slow, weak on 1v1 situations as seen many times against any fast opponent).
There's a reason why the system was working well just before lock down with both Fred and Mctominay behind Bruno, they provide the required balance, while both are limited in passing and vision, they are the best in work rate, covering, tackles and interceptions. All they have to do is pass the ball to Bruno who was alway lurking in between the lines or to one of the FBs.
Post lock down we had a nice run of easy games when we played Pogba/Bruno against easy opponents, but once we faced teams like Southampton, we started to struggle against high press, because Pogba literally crumbles under any sort of press, which is always a disaster when you try to play from the back, which is another thing we shouldn't be doing cause we lack the tools for, but let's not get sidetracked here. We attributed the struggling in the latest phase of the season to player being tired, while in fact, most of our key players were being substituted around 60 minutes, like every other team, and apart from City, every team played the same 11 almost in every game post lock down. So our player got tired, maybe it wasn't that, it was the system.
In all the games this season, there's a pattern in our high press, we press high with the front line including Bruno, but the double pivot of Pogba And Matic stay put because Matic can't do the running required and - in case the line was penetrated - run to recover or chase the opponents. This creates a gap between the two lines (front and midfield), in Tottenham' s game that gap was so bad that finally Solskjaer decided to ask Pogba and Matic to press high too, but the defense didn't press to reduce the space because would mean the defensive line would be too high for Maguire to run back as he suffers the same problem that Matic has, they are slow.
Solutions:
1. Pogba and Bruno is a recipe for disaster, they shouldn't play in the same team unless we play a very weak opponent, which is gonna be a rare occasion this season. We should play with 2 of Matic/Fred/Mctominay, where Matic sits deep and the one the other two do the hard work. One AM either Pogba, Bruno or VDB.
2. We shouldn't really be trying high press, that would require a very fast pair of CBs because you need a high line to maintain a narrow space between the lines, otherwise it's just suicide. While we at this, let's stop the half ass press we always do we asked the front line to press high while the rest of the team are acres behind. Let's just play with mid block.
3. Forget about playing out from the back, we simply lack any sort of discipline or understanding for this. When trying to play from the back against high press, one of the easiest approaches is La Valope exit which is usually implemented when your goal keeper isn't great with his feet. The idea is you need a 3 man backline to do that, so one of you midfielders drops between the two CBs who spread wide across the field of play while your full backs push up and hug the lines and the other two midfielder drop to create triangles of passing lanes. A perfect example was done by Tottenham against us before Martial was sent off. We ALMOST NEVER do that, and we when we try it it's usually Pogba who tries to do it, unfortunately he always drops late and receives the pass with him facing our goal, which is a big no no, that's why he keeps loosing the ball in this crucial area because he can't see the player pressing him from a blind angle. I don't think Solskjaer have the tactical capabilities to train our squad to this. So let's just keep it simple and avoid this completely. I'm tired of seeing Maguire running around like a headless chicken trying to find a passing lane, when the whole system of playing from the back is all about creating triangles of passing options!
That was along post, sorry.
The premise that we can play both Pogba & Bruno in the same team in 4-5-1 is false, it can't & won't work against any decent team.
Pogba isn't equipped with any defensive ability or discipline to play along side Matic, Matic can't cover the huge spaces left behind Bruno and Pogba, especially if one of the FB went up to support in attacking phase. It just doesn't work. You can't simply claim that you want to play a dynamic style with 3 midfielders, one wants to press high (Bruno) while the second is clueless (Pogba) and the third is slow (Matic) in the counter press or even in high press. Let's not forget that our CB is slow as well (Maguire is slow, weak on 1v1 situations as seen many times against any fast opponent).
There's a reason why the system was working well just before lock down with both Fred and Mctominay behind Bruno, they provide the required balance, while both are limited in passing and vision, they are the best in work rate, covering, tackles and interceptions. All they have to do is pass the ball to Bruno who was alway lurking in between the lines or to one of the FBs.
Post lock down we had a nice run of easy games when we played Pogba/Bruno against easy opponents, but once we faced teams like Southampton, we started to struggle against high press, because Pogba literally crumbles under any sort of press, which is always a disaster when you try to play from the back, which is another thing we shouldn't be doing cause we lack the tools for, but let's not get sidetracked here. We attributed the struggling in the latest phase of the season to player being tired, while in fact, most of our key players were being substituted around 60 minutes, like every other team, and apart from City, every team played the same 11 almost in every game post lock down. So our player got tired, maybe it wasn't that, it was the system.
In all the games this season, there's a pattern in our high press, we press high with the front line including Bruno, but the double pivot of Pogba And Matic stay put because Matic can't do the running required and - in case the line was penetrated - run to recover or chase the opponents. This creates a gap between the two lines (front and midfield), in Tottenham' s game that gap was so bad that finally Solskjaer decided to ask Pogba and Matic to press high too, but the defense didn't press to reduce the space because would mean the defensive line would be too high for Maguire to run back as he suffers the same problem that Matic has, they are slow.
Solutions:
1. Pogba and Bruno is a recipe for disaster, they shouldn't play in the same team unless we play a very weak opponent, which is gonna be a rare occasion this season. We should play with 2 of Matic/Fred/Mctominay, where Matic sits deep and the one the other two do the hard work. One AM either Pogba, Bruno or VDB.
2. We shouldn't really be trying high press, that would require a very fast pair of CBs because you need a high line to maintain a narrow space between the lines, otherwise it's just suicide. While we at this, let's stop the half ass press we always do we asked the front line to press high while the rest of the team are acres behind. Let's just play with mid block.
3. Forget about playing out from the back, we simply lack any sort of discipline or understanding for this. When trying to play from the back against high press, one of the easiest approaches is La Valope exit which is usually implemented when your goal keeper isn't great with his feet. The idea is you need a 3 man backline to do that, so one of you midfielders drops between the two CBs who spread wide across the field of play while your full backs push up and hug the lines and the other two midfielder drop to create triangles of passing lanes. A perfect example was done by Tottenham against us before Martial was sent off. We ALMOST NEVER do that, and we when we try it it's usually Pogba who tries to do it, unfortunately he always drops late and receives the pass with him facing our goal, which is a big no no, that's why he keeps loosing the ball in this crucial area because he can't see the player pressing him from a blind angle. I don't think Solskjaer have the tactical capabilities to train our squad to this. So let's just keep it simple and avoid this completely. I'm tired of seeing Maguire running around like a headless chicken trying to find a passing lane, when the whole system of playing from the back is all about creating triangles of passing options!
That was along post, sorry.
This thread certainly ages well..
Ole lurches from one extreme to another. Naive against Tottenham to play Pogba/ Matic/ Bruno midfield in unfit team to Fred Mctoninay every other game. Fred / Matic or Fred/ Van Der Beek should have played yesterday. And Please no Mata/ Dan James against a top 6 again unless we have lots of injuries.
Eventually we need to sell Fred/ McT and get a proper DM....
Eventually we need to sell Fred/ McT and get a proper DM....
Based on recent evidence, and large amounts of the year last season, the answer is clearly yes. Since the two have come in, they have given us a solid base, which has allowed our front four to attack.
Unfortunately, our front four didn't quite click yesterday (Ole may regret some decisions) but once we find that balance, we should look a lot better.
Unfortunately, our front four didn't quite click yesterday (Ole may regret some decisions) but once we find that balance, we should look a lot better.
They’re doing a very good job, and we’ve conceded only 2 goals in our last 3 games which is great progress.
But I still don’t like how Fred gifts the ball straight to the opponents attacking players for a 3 on 3 or 4 on 4 attack, i think I’ve seen it at least once, every game.
But I still don’t like how Fred gifts the ball straight to the opponents attacking players for a 3 on 3 or 4 on 4 attack, i think I’ve seen it at least once, every game.
Most consistent partnership after Ole's arrival.
McTominay can be sold; not even close to good enough if we are looking to compete for the title. Keep Fred and bring in a proper defensive midfielder.
People keep on pointing to our best defensive record last season, but that actually only improved after Matic and Fernandes started getting games/joined the team.
What I find frustrating is how Solskjaer only tries some things once even if it worked. Fred, Pogba, and Fernandes played really well against Sevilla; dominated the midfield and was highly creative; it was the attack and wing backs that cost us the game, through poor finishing and defending.
For now, I would like to see that midfield tried again, and when we buy a specialist DM, Fred can become a squad player. Matic and Fred can share the role; McTominay can play the duff games until next summer when he should be replaced by someone at the level we need.
People keep on pointing to our best defensive record last season, but that actually only improved after Matic and Fernandes started getting games/joined the team.
What I find frustrating is how Solskjaer only tries some things once even if it worked. Fred, Pogba, and Fernandes played really well against Sevilla; dominated the midfield and was highly creative; it was the attack and wing backs that cost us the game, through poor finishing and defending.
For now, I would like to see that midfield tried again, and when we buy a specialist DM, Fred can become a squad player. Matic and Fred can share the role; McTominay can play the duff games until next summer when he should be replaced by someone at the level we need.
I can’t believe we are having a go at them when they are actually playing well atm
They are not the reasons that we didn’t win yesterday
Greenwood and Pogba for James and Mata and we would have won
They are not the reasons that we didn’t win yesterday
Greenwood and Pogba for James and Mata and we would have won
It's actually crazy.
Absurd isn't it?
They are doing really good, I have no doubts we will be scoring a lot more goals once Greenwood finds his feet and Martial gets back.
We need to upgrade this come next season, particularly McTominay.
McTominay needs dropping for a while. He's been absolutely atrocious the last three games, which is strange because the game immediately before that was by far his best on-the-ball performance he's had.
Bit like Lindelöf, passive.
One thing you can't blame Matic for.
One thing you can't blame Matic for.
I'm not sure what the answer is in centre midfield but it's holding us back.
I like Fred and McTominay but they are too similar for a partnership, too much jack of all trades, masters of nothing. We have slightly more control of the ball with Pogba and Matic but lose out defensively.
We need a CM to get on the ball and dictate play. Can Van de Beek be that when Pogba goes? I'm not convinced. I don't see us buying big in that area either.
I like Fred and McTominay but they are too similar for a partnership, too much jack of all trades, masters of nothing. We have slightly more control of the ball with Pogba and Matic but lose out defensively.
We need a CM to get on the ball and dictate play. Can Van de Beek be that when Pogba goes? I'm not convinced. I don't see us buying big in that area either.
We have 2 average players playing to cover one role, when we could buy someone else who could do the job on his own and get another CM/AM on the pitch to help with the offensive play. VDB must be looking and thinking what do I need to do to play instead of one of these 2.
When they play together the disconnect between the midfield and front 4 is an issue, and it's not really their fault as neither are great at passing between the lines, it's not their strength.
No and we struggling as a result in big games now because we having more of the ball in these games then we did when Solskjaer first arrived and these two don’t know what to do.
Fred is cooler than McTominay. But he's also more of a weak link.
VdB
They tend to play a lot better together when Pogba is not in the team for some reason.
They are limited yes but when they are both firing on all cylinders, they can overpower most midfields with speed, desire and tenacity.
Both have been a little off the boil recently.
They are limited yes but when they are both firing on all cylinders, they can overpower most midfields with speed, desire and tenacity.
Both have been a little off the boil recently.
We only really have 2 options to have a more forward thinking midfield. First option is to play Pogba at the base of midfield alongside 1 other, which we've seen causes problems because he loses the ball in dangerous areas too often and his defensive work is poor. The other option is give VDB a run alongside Fred at the base of midfield but Ole doesn't seem to trust him and there's doubts over whether that's his best position, but it's surely worth a try.
I'd consider bringing Matic into the team for now alongside Fred because Mctom is off form. But that's not a long term solution and hardly solves the problem of lack of true techincal quality at the base of midfield.
I should say though I don't think they're at fault for a lot of what we see. We had space to counter attack into in the first half tonight and Pogba/Fernandes/Martial/Rashford wasted promising attacks. We worked enough good positions to cause more threat, our lack of cohesion amongst the attacking players is not the fault of Fred/Mctominay. They're also not at fault for our poor use the wide positions in attack and lack of balance we have not having any quality winger in the squad.
I'd consider bringing Matic into the team for now alongside Fred because Mctom is off form. But that's not a long term solution and hardly solves the problem of lack of true techincal quality at the base of midfield.
I should say though I don't think they're at fault for a lot of what we see. We had space to counter attack into in the first half tonight and Pogba/Fernandes/Martial/Rashford wasted promising attacks. We worked enough good positions to cause more threat, our lack of cohesion amongst the attacking players is not the fault of Fred/Mctominay. They're also not at fault for our poor use the wide positions in attack and lack of balance we have not having any quality winger in the squad.
They compliment each other's weaknesses and so they kind of rely on one another.
The solution is to sign a proper fecking Defensive Midfielder.
The solution is to sign a proper fecking Defensive Midfielder.