Are we jinxed or is there a coaching issue at Manchester United

spiriticon

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We lost a whole crew of world class, title winning coaches because Moyes wanted to bring in Jimmy Lumsden and Co.

Carrick and Mckenna, bless them, know feck all about coaching title winning teams.
 

Chesterlestreet

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You don't have to be on the training ground and have details to know that we are not as good as other top clubs in that department, you can judge that by the results. In essence it's comparable to judging a surgeon, you don't need a PhD or to be in the operating room to know that if you end up with brand new breast implants during an appendectomy something went wrong.
We're not judging individual surgeons, though, are we?

ETA To stick with your analogy: the hospital is shite. We all know that. The question is why.
 

JPRouve

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We're not judging individual surgeons, though, are we?

ETA To stick with your analogy: the hospital is shite. We all know that. The question is why.
Because we keep hiring subpar employees which points to a problem with the HR department. But that wasn't the question, the OP asked if we are cursed, we are not, we are just not as competent as the competition when it comes to human resources management.
 

red woppit

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Maybe our players read caf, that would explain why they all go downhill.

On a serious note, it might well be the intense pressure, criticism, and expectation that they face as a United player. It’s not something as basic as a coaching issue, as this has been the case since the LVG days.
Interesting point.
We lost 6-1 at home (no advantage with no home support), had 10 players for the majority of the game (unfairly), had Kane in the area when we had a goal kick for the third (should have been ruled out), add in several mistakes, poor tackles, and we are plastered over every newspaper in the land. Take Liverpool who were beaten 7-2 by a team who were almost relegated a few weeks ago, had a full team for all the match, and Villa also hit the woodwork and had several more good chances to score, and have not really featured much in the press, so you can see why the pressure is on United players (from media and CAF).
A lot of you have your own agenda's with wanting owners, CEOs, managers, coaches and players out the door, and yes there are certain personnel I would like to see gone from the club, but I will always follow United, and want them to win matches playing good football. Sometimes you have to take the hits and come back stronger.
 

redIndianDevil

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Great post.

Coaching is the buzz word in the Caf at the moment.

Everything can be improved by this mythical coaching, that apparently we are not doing.

It amuses me when I see posters stating things like “player x would be good if he was coached”. “If only we could actually coach the team property then we would be in xyz position”.
We'll take two equally talented students and ask them to take any competitive exam in a year's time. Give one of them excellent specialized coaching understanding the student's strength and weakness and give the other student nothing but the basic materials needed. Who is going to do well in the exam?
 

Bebestation

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Its said countless times but you cant go from Moyes to LVG to Mourinho to Ole.

They value different types of players and different tactical set ups that sets up no building aspect within the team.

Going from Moyes to Mourinho to Pochettino would make sense if that's the type of play we wanted.

Going from LVG to Ole would have made more sense than going with Jose because of valuing of players like Rashford, Martial, Greenwood than say someone like Lukaku.

The problem is the people higher up are not directing our football. It seems like first they give the manager a freedom as they wish - almost giving them that SAF type ruling of our club only for them to turn it around within the 2nd/3rd year for that sudden control, non backing and dumping for the next manager.
 

monosierra

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Sometimes team culture sticks with an organization despite personnel changes. Some teams are built to win, from the top down - the Patriots of the NFL under Belichick is one example. There is an ethos and team spirit that everyone buys into and which influences every part of the organization, from the backroom staff to the players. As nebulous as it sounds, such "soft" factors do translate into concrete policies with direct impact, such as hiring the best believers, constant innovation in tactics and training, exercising discipline. The source of this influence may be a single, powerful leader. Under SAF, we had elements of such influence and institutional power within the club. He writes about this in detail in his book. Now that has been depleted. Think of the company you work for - How's the culture and how does that affect hiring decisions, employee development, operational efficiency, and innovation, amongst other things. Some companies have that DNA and do great things with great employees. Some trundle and blunder along. Such cultural DNA does exist in sporting organizations too and it looks like our's is being sapped dry.
 

Dirty Schwein

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I don't know what our "coaches" actually do.

Maguire - gotten worse since joining us
AWB - gotten worse since coming here
Lindelof - don't know how he was before but he definitely hasn't improved in his time here.
Shaw - hasn't improved since being here
Bailly - still as rash as the day he joined
Rashford - still hasn't got the consistency the top forwards need
James - had his electric style of play coached out of him
Pogba - hasn't improved or become consistent
Bruno - great start, now he's slowly becoming the delap of penalties
Greenwood - his performances seem to be dropping but there's still time
Marital - still as streaky as ever

And that's just some of the players. You can say something similar for:

JLingz
Lukaku
Sanchez
ADM
Fred
Smalling
Etc

Then you look at Liverpool, who have made players like Henderson look essential.
 

monosierra

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I don't know what our "coaches" actually do.

Maguire - gotten worse since joining us
AWB - gotten worse since coming here
Lindelof - don't know how he was before but he definitely hasn't improved in his time here.
Shaw - hasn't improved since being here
Bailly - still as rash as the day he joined
Rashford - still hasn't got the consistency the top forwards need
James - had his electric style of play coached out of him
Pogba - hasn't improved or become consistent
Bruno - great start, now he's slowly becoming the delap of penalties
Greenwood - his performances seem to be dropping but there's still time
Marital - still as streaky as ever

And that's just some of the players. You can say something similar for:

JLingz
Lukaku
Sanchez
ADM
Fred
Smalling
Etc
Indeed. Compare this to what the clubs known for better coaching and development does and it is clear what's different in our club. Even at Dortmund, which changes managers frequently, young players still develop well - do they have a coaching organization independent of the manager? Ditto Pool and City, where Klopp and Pep are known for improving players (Whom they selected in the first place). To be fair to Ole, he has improved our attacking players. To borrow from the NFL, perhaps he is better suited as an "offensive" coach rather than an overall manager.
 
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We'll take two equally talented students and ask them to take any competitive exam in a year's time. Give one of them excellent specialized coaching understanding the student's strength and weakness and give the other student nothing but the basic materials needed. Who is going to do well in the exam?
And remind me, how do you judge our coaching? Have you observed it?
 

Zapata

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think coaching is a huge issue, if some of these players left for real/psg/city they'd be playing better
 

big rons sovereign

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Not just coaching, we're lacking leadership on the field. Fergie always had a strong leader, Robson, Keane, Bruce, Cantona, Vidic etc.
Now we've got Maguire who won't challenge the ref. Without strong leadership there's no example to follow.
Seems to me the likes of martial or pogba need someone to give them a bollocking in matches, we just don't have that anymore.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Because we keep hiring subpar employees which points to a problem with the HR department. But that wasn't the question, the OP asked if we are cursed, we are not, we are just not as competent as the competition when it comes to human resources management.
To be clear - I agree 100%.

My initial response was more...let's say a slight jab at posters who seemingly know that Ole (or anyone else for that matter) is a terrible coach, as in: he (or his subordinates) doesn't coach "properly" at all (patterns of play - or whatever it is).

Continuing with the analogy:

Conclude the hospital ain't great? Anyone can do that, based on visible results. Something isn't right, etc.

Conclude the hospital trains its interns terribly (and furthermore, that this is the primary reason why the hospital is shite)? A random fecker can't do that without detailed knowledge about the actual training methods.
 

Skills

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Indeed. Compare this to what the clubs known for better coaching and development does and it is clear what's different in our club. Even at Dortmund, which changes managers frequently, young players still develop well - do they have a coaching organization independent of the manager? Ditto Pool and City, where Klopp and Pep are known for improving players (Whom they selected in the first place). To be fair to Ole, he has improved our attacking players. To borrow from the NFL, perhaps he is better suited as an "offensive" coach rather than an overall manager.
They don't change managers frequently because they don't have one. They change head coaches frequently and inevitably most head coaches tend to bring their own coaching staff with them.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Our medical and fitness department suck for sure and it was even pretty poor under SAF. I thought we looked coached in a boring way under Jose and LVG.
Under Ole I am not sure. Moyes I think tried to coach in a way he could not and it backfired.
Get a top attacking manager in and change our background teams and we might see a change.
 

Munkehboi

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We have a club culture issue above all else that stems from the top of the command chain and it's all got to do with money.

Players don't need to go to China or Saudi for the big last paycheck if they are at Utd. They are too comfortable and well protected nowadays by the club. On £250,000 playing crap, it's ok you won't lose your place, just work harder - except they aren't working any harder or playing better. Completely pampared, on too much money and living the high life and it's all the club's fault. Being a Man Utd player certainly gives you the previlages that not many other clubs can provide you. Would Lingard have his stupid clothing venture if he was a Cheslea player? Very much doubt it but he is a Man Utd player and attached to our great club by name and employment so he will get all the publicity he needsd that no other English clubs could offer.

I get the feeling that some of our senior players feel completely invincible and exempt from criticism becasue they are on such high wages and are the public faces of our club. Some most feel undroppable and the PR machine that we also are requires a Pogba face on a mug or a Martial face on a poster to bank roll the Glazers so it's no wonder really.

Essentially we have become too big of an entity and let player power dictate the way we perform over 90 minutes on the pitch however, this is completely enabled by the powers that be who control the finances and have given our players and their agents too much.
 

Giggsy13

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We aren’t jinxed, we’re just incompetent at almost every level at the club apart from the youth and academy recruitment, which is being led by a true football man in Nicky Butt.

The sooner we abandon the romanticism of the past and “United DNA” the better. We are 90s liverpool. We just need a world class manager and a DOF who are truly backed
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Not just coaching, we're lacking leadership on the field. Fergie always had a strong leader, Robson, Keane, Bruce, Cantona, Vidic etc.
Now we've got Maguire who won't challenge the ref. Without strong leadership there's no example to follow.
Seems to me the likes of martial or pogba need someone to give them a bollocking in matches, we just don't have that anymore.
It is not on the field we really miss it the most. It is outside the field we need better leadership and coaching. From the full staff and not just Ole.
 

Zen86

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Interesting point.
We lost 6-1 at home (no advantage with no home support), had 10 players for the majority of the game (unfairly), had Kane in the area when we had a goal kick for the third (should have been ruled out), add in several mistakes, poor tackles, and we are plastered over every newspaper in the land. Take Liverpool who were beaten 7-2 by a team who were almost relegated a few weeks ago, had a full team for all the match, and Villa also hit the woodwork and had several more good chances to score, and have not really featured much in the press, so you can see why the pressure is on United players (from media and CAF).
A lot of you have your own agenda's with wanting owners, CEOs, managers, coaches and players out the door, and yes there are certain personnel I would like to see gone from the club, but I will always follow United, and want them to win matches playing good football. Sometimes you have to take the hits and come back stronger.
Agreed. Maguire is a perfect example of this scrutiny. He was a good defender for Leicester and England, which is why we bought him in the first place. His £80m fee didn’t help, but as soon as he signed for us there were a lot of people gunning for him before he'd even kicked a ball, including our own fans. You've even got irrelevant d***heads like Van Der Vaart having bizarre potshots at him. Is It really any surprise he isn't looking like the player he used to be?

You can simply take a look at this place to see a snapshot of our fanbase, their expectations, the kind of s**t they receive daily. Players aren’t oblivious to these things, they don’t live in caves and stay away from the internet. When fans were allowed inside OT, the players would for the most part be supported and cheered 100%. Now, without the fans, the only connection or experience they get is the online vitriol, with hack journo's fanning the flames.

People will state the usual BS that players should be able to handle pressure, but everyone has a limit. They're mostly a bunch of kids in their mid-20s at the end of the day.
 

Son

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Coaching for sure.

I honestly think we keep going down this "we're man united" path and bringing in people who know the club, but we need a fresh start.

hanging onto the past isn't helping, we need a modern coach who wants to play the modern way.

I love Ole and think he's done a good job, but he's limited in what he can bring us. His idea of football is get the ball up the pitch and close to the goal as fast as possible and shoot. We need a coach that aims to press and keep possession better to be able to conquer Europe.
Agree completely with all this. Ole has sorted some of the glaring problems out I’ll give him that.

I’m the same when I start every sentence with “I love Ole but...”That needs to stop with our next manager. I don’t need to love the manager for what they did before, we need them to prove it in the dugout not what they did

Maybe then I’ll love them without the ‘but’ in the sentence.

Treble was a generation ago, incredible as it was. Moscow also becoming that way too the longer we dream about the past. New fans share none of this goodwill too imo.

It just feels bad when we had everything in our hands and the higher ups threw it away with pure naivety and let’s be honest greed to be exploited by people who don’t belong anywhere near our club.
 

JPRouve

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To be clear - I agree 100%.

My initial response was more...let's say a slight jab at posters who seemingly know that Ole (or anyone else for that matter) is a terrible coach, as in: he (or his subordinates) doesn't coach "properly" at all (patterns of play - or whatever it is).

Continuing with the analogy:

Conclude the hospital ain't great? Anyone can do that, based on visible results. Something isn't right, etc.

Conclude the hospital trains its interns terribly (and furthermore, that this is the primary reason why the hospital is shite)? A random fecker can't do that without detailed knowledge about the actual training methods.
I'm not really following. If players consistently don't look like they are well coached then they aren't well coached, you don't need to be on the training ground to make that conclusion. Details are only useful if you try to determine where is the exact problems within the training process, it could be communication, the application of the technical/tactical drills or simply the belief in ineffective training concepts by the coaching staff, none of us can answer that but we can all agree on the fact that one or several of these things are going wrong, simply because the coaching staff's goal isn't to see players stagnate or regress.

As for your interns analogy, if the majority of your interns are poorly trained then you can definitely conclude that the training methods are problematic without having any details about them.
 

Bobcat

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Its not a coaching issue. Just a couple of months ago we looked like the best team in the league and now we look like one of the worst. Did all the players and coaching staff suffer a collective stroke or something?

Its mentality and culture. There is something rotten at the club and while it seemed for a while that Ole was dealing with it, he is seemingly unable to do same as his predecesors. So he will take the fall, while Ed and co keep their job and so will the rotten appels in the dressing room.
 

VojjE

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Its not a coaching issue. Just a couple of months ago we looked like the best team in the league and now we look like one of the worst. Did all the players and coaching staff suffer a collective stroke or something?

Its mentality and culture. There is something rotten at the club and while it seemed for a while that Ole was dealing with it, he is seemingly unable to do same as his predecesors. So he will take the fall, while Ed and co keep their job and so will the rotten appels in the dressing room.
Honestly, you'd think that after years of underperforming and not getting their money's worth - with several changes in the manager's seat - that the Glazers would want a change in CEO or at least shift him to operating strictly the business side of the club. How Woodward still has a job baffles me, any other company would have made some sort of change in leadership by now.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Man Utd currently have a manager that, if / when sacked by Utd would get a job where else in the PL...? Genuine question.

What PL club would actively go after his coaching services? Whatever your answer - that is the level of this manager.

There were many of us who asked the same of Moyes - the answer was West Ham.

I would ask anyone currently musing over the issues at Utd to answer the same question of Utd's current manager, and to answer it honestly.
 

Chresta

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Players aren't coached at all yet....

1. Finished 3rd. If our players aren't coached god help the ones who finished below us.

2. We only lost 1 top 6 clash in the league last season. Incredible feat for a team that's 'not coached'

3. Beat Pep Guardiola three times in one season. Only 2nd team ever do manage that.

4. Beat Chelsea 3 times, took 4pts off Jose and beat Leicester home and away.


Our players have clearly been coached guy ffs. We've had some tremendous winning runs under this manager. The caretaker spell and end of January to July this year. Suppose they were flukes?

Our players have come back without a pre season game in most cases and it's cost us badly. I did say this to you all when I said we should throw the Europa League and nobody listened to me. Got laughed at. Not laughing now though.
Brilliant post... totally agree with you.
 

Greck

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This is the big issue for me. No one has any real threat to their position. I just find it astounding that people think Ole and the coaching staff tactics are so rudimentary, with probably zero coaching qualifications and not to mention they have no idea what's even said behind closed doors, or being involved in training sessions.

A good example was given in a post earlier, Mourinho seems to be able to coach Spurs to better performances recently, but obviously it was his fault when we were playing dire football. Even quoting players doubting the credentials is just a farce, how about we doubt their credentials as top players? I'm not sure how some people are claiming Bruno is now "not the same player before lockdown". He's not even had a full season here, probably should work out what he can contribute in a full season first.
Just a side note, Jose definitely doesn't have spurs playing anything special. In fact their football hasn't been too far from what he played here
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Its not a coaching issue. Just a couple of months ago we looked like the best team in the league and now we look like one of the worst. Did all the players and coaching staff suffer a collective stroke or something?

Its mentality and culture. There is something rotten at the club and while it seemed for a while that Ole was dealing with it, he is seemingly unable to do same as his predecesors. So he will take the fall, while Ed and co keep their job and so will the rotten appels in the dressing room.
Who are these rotten appels though? People said it was Sanchez and Lukaku so they are gone. He persisted with keeping Pogba so if he is the bad one then it is just stupid.
Maguire and AWB might be rotten too and he bought them. Not sure how Bruno is in the dressing room either.
Let's face it the big problem is OGS. He is not good enough. He increased the spirit and had a good run with us, but has not improved us playing as a unit or a team well enough.
He do not have a clue how to build a top culture or top team.
Hope he turns it around, but not having much faith left.
 

Lash

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Just a side note, Jose definitely doesn't have spurs playing anything special. In fact their football hasn't been too far from what he played here
I'm not trying to say he's setting the world alight, but they're not regressing like we did under Mou. They're also still scoring a lot of goals, for a supposedly defensive, mourinho mindset.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I'm not really following.
It's not that complicated.

You have an under-performing team as per expectations, money spent, status in the game, history - whatever.

WHY is that team under-performing?

Recruitment? Culture? Overall leadership? Coaching in general (which includes psychological aspects, motivation, man management and so forth)? Specific issues resulting from poor coaching (failure to instruct otherwise competent players to play in a certain manner)?

Probably a combination. But the part in bold is what we're discussing here. And that part is something a random Internet fan can't know very much about. Nor is it anything which can have plagued United across the entire post-SAF period (the actual methods involved have obviously varied from regime to regime).
 

redIndianDevil

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The most mind-blowing thing about the caf is how the feck does keyboard typing coaches know we're lacking in the coaching department??

Nobody here knows, 100% can guarantee that.

The difference between a well oiled machine team and Manchester United is, they don't have very good players, they had to rely on tactical brilliance to win games. You see Brighton playing well, can they win the league? no.

We rely on form, and individual brilliance. Tactics are there but not as important of getting the players on form. When our players on form, doesn't matter what tactics they use, we will win games.

Do they win 30 games with said tactics? No. Good style of play can win you games but not consistently, you teach a team to play one way, you won't win everytime.

That is more important to me than seeing a well oiled team passing for no reason like LVG's philosophy.
Can't you see the irony of talking about keyboard typing coaches and then proceeding to talk as if you yourself are a manager?
 

bondsname

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United has no identity anymore. No clear plan.

We brought Moyes in, who didn't have it in him to succeed.

Then we brought in Van Gaal, whose football philosophy is the complete opposite of Moyes's. He then added a few players to fit in his philosophy.

Then we got Mourinho, whose football philosophy is the polar opposite of Van Gaals. He then proceeds to add players to fit his vision.

Now we have Ole whose philosophy differs completely from Mourinho. He then proceeds to add players to fit his vision.

Now we are left with a mixture of players bought for different reasons, that were bought for certain qualities to fit a certain managers vision. It also didn't help that we rarely got the managers first choice and got the second or third choice option instead. My uneducated guess is that's why we see a lot of inconsistency and lack of chemistry in our teams the past years.

A solution would be to hire a director of football that will stay in place in case a manager gets sacked. A Director of Football that follows a strategy to acquire players to fit a certain vision, and hire managers that can continue to expand upon that vision. That way if a manager is sacked, we wont have to start from scratch every time.
 

Greck

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United has no identity anymore. No clear plan.

We brought Moyes in, who didn't have it in him to succeed.

Then we brought in Van Gaal, whose football philosophy is the complete opposite of Moyes's. He then added a few players to fit in his philosophy.

Then we got Mourinho, whose football philosophy is the polar opposite of Van Gaals. He then proceeds to add players to fit his vision.

Now we have Ole whose philosophy differs completely from Mourinho. He then proceeds to add players to fit his vision.

Now we are left with a mixture of players bought for different reasons, that were bought for certain qualities to fit a certain managers vision. It also didn't help that we rarely got the managers first choice and got the second or third choice option instead. My uneducated guess is that's why we see a lot of inconsistency and lack of chemistry in our teams the past years.

A solution would be to hire a director of football that will stay in place in case a manager gets sacked. A Director of Football that follows a strategy to acquire players to fit a certain vision, and hire managers that can continue to expand upon that vision. That way if a manager is sacked, we wont have to start from scratch every time.
True although comically Ole bought players that were more suited to Mourinho's vision than his, a massive conundrum for the next manager
 

JustinC00

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take out penalties and we are bottom quarter of league table for attempts.
Such a dumb argument to use. How do you think those penalties happen? It's us working the ball into the box.

And that stat has to be based on this year because absolutely no way this team was worse last year at shot attempts than LVG. Practically every match would be something like 5(2) with him.

Post the stat image because if it's based on this year of course we would be there, we have had 1 less game than most and played a majority of a game with 10 men. But I'm very sure the stat you saw was "big chances this season" which again we've played a game less then most and a game without a CF for most of it.

BTW according to that "big chance" list citeh and the plastics have only had 1 more big chance than us


So if OGS is gonna get it fat Frank should too

How much did he spend on attackers this summer?
 

tomaldinho1

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We lost a whole crew of world class, title winning coaches because Moyes wanted to bring in Jimmy Lumsden and Co.

Carrick and Mckenna, bless them, know feck all about coaching title winning teams.
Also, although it's great Carrick was with us for so long it's good to get an outside perspective. Phelan has bounced around a bit but we have no real influence from any major European countries, other leagues, other innovative ways of thinking. You look at the clubs who have done well recently and you have big coaching teams and tactically fanatical managers (Klopp, Pep, Conte) - there's a reason we keep buying better players and yet the gap has grown in recent years and it starts and ends on the training pitch.
 

RU Devil

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Too much chopping & changing. United Post SAF has seen too much managerial change, each with their own tactics & player preferences/profiles, that it is hard to have any coherence in terms of style of play. A lot of good parts, but it doesn't seem Ole can make them all fit, although it seemed he found a groove post-lockdown. Maybe it was illusory and the team just gelled for a bit & took advantage of the once in a lifetime situation. I do think the team is best fit for counter-attacking, but Ole can't rely on this all season. Too many teams will sit back & force us to initiate the play, which we can not do successfully for large parts of the season, due to the mismatched parts & coaching. Of course, it still falls on Ole & his staff to figure out the best fit, but it seems he is trying to stick to 1 preferred method, instead of switching up like SAF did brilliantly. True, Ole has switched formations at times, but it seemed to me based on player availability instead of game-scheming (& even player management in the case of SAF, as this helped to keep everyone sharp & fresh). Would be interesting to see how Ole sets up his training days compare to others. I am a bit in the camp that he needs more tactical help on the sidelines.
 

redIndianDevil

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3,639
And remind me, how do you judge our coaching? Have you observed it?
I don't get the point of these questions? So only the Manchester United staff are only allowed to talk? It is blatantly obvious that teams with managers who coach well perform better consistently, whereas teams that rely on individual brilliance always has ups and downs.