A serious look at Mauricio Pochettino

starman

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Keep it up and every 2nd poster here will be calling you a cultist. You're already the Jedi master of deflection.
I know right, there's quite few a sensitive souls in here, you question Poch, "oh must be a Ole cultist"
Why haven't you put me on ignore yet or are you just the master of pointless posts?
 

VP89

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The thing is Pochettino's qualities are obvious but his flaws seem to be as obvious. Tottenham have been a well drilled team when all the starters were fit but to me it seems that he has always struggled to integrate or adapt to new players with different characteristics. I have an LVG vibe about him where I wouldn't trust him with money, I feel that he is a manager that can thrive when he is forced to deal with what he has and new shiny players quickly become an hindrance more than an asset.

I suspect that he is the foundation type of manager and not the one to take you to the top of the food chain, I don't know if that makes sense?
If we were to indulge in a post Ole shortlist, would Poch be at the top of your list despite the flaws you've perceived here? I can only see Tuchel as a likely "other" who may be out of work during this season.
 

Hugh Jass

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I have serious reservations about him. Can he handle Man Utd? There is an inkling of doubt that we will hire him and then two years down the line we are looking for a new manager again.
 

Skills

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The thing is Pochettino's qualities are obvious but his flaws seem to be as obvious. Tottenham have been a well drilled team when all the starters were fit but to me it seems that he has always struggled to integrate or adapt to new players with different characteristics. I have an LVG vibe about him where I wouldn't trust him with money, I feel that he is a manager that can thrive when he is forced to deal with what he has and new shiny players quickly become an hindrance more than an asset.

I suspect that he is the foundation type of manager and not the one to take you to the top of the food chain, I don't know if that makes sense?
I agree with this, and on top I'd add his football I find quite boring. We're basically permanently establishing ourselves as a 2nd tier football club in terms of entertainment if we hire him. We'd have been playing boring football for the best part of a decade.

I'm Ole out, but someone else but Poch in.
 

Cassidy

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The thing is Pochettino's qualities are obvious but his flaws seem to be as obvious. Tottenham have been a well drilled team when all the starters were fit but to me it seems that he has always struggled to integrate or adapt to new players with different characteristics. I have an LVG vibe about him where I wouldn't trust him with money, I feel that he is a manager that can thrive when he is forced to deal with what he has and new shiny players quickly become an hindrance more than an asset.

I suspect that he is the foundation type of manager and not the one to take you to the top of the food chain, I don't know if that makes sense?
Son Kane and Sissoko all players he integrated? And Trippier after losing Walker

Thats a fair statement and an open question.

Not sure about adapting to players because from what we saw, the time to integrate new players and push the team on was 2018 and he got no new players for 18 months.
Even then he integrated Winks into the midfield.

He didn't really have very long to work with the likes of NDombele and Los Celso (who was injured up until Poch was sacked)
 

RuudTom83

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Rinse and repeat...does anyone really expect it the turn out any different.

It’s amazing the Glazers still have faith in anything Woody recommends.
 

Skills

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I have serious reservations about him. Can he handle Man Utd? There is an inkling of doubt that we will hire him and then two years down the line we are looking for a new manager again.
My biggest worry is we hire him and he basically just achieves the bare minimum for a decade. A bit too good to be as bad as Moyes, Ole and co but basically converts us into the Arsenal of 2005 - present.

A big part of our fanbase would happily settle for that, as they would've finally got their long term manager. This club just doesn't sack managers until they completely shit the bed.
 

Hugh Jass

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My biggest worry is we hire him and he basically just achieves the bare minimum for a decade. A bit too good to be as bad as Moyes, Ole and co but basically converts us into the Arsenal of 2005 - present.

A big part of our fanbase would happily settle for that, as they would've finally got their long term manager. This club just doesn't sack managers until they completely shit the bed.
My worry is can he command respect. The players are not disciplined in my view. They threw Mourinho under the bus and will more than likely throw ole as well. There is too much player power. They need a manager to come in and really just get into their heads like people in the army.
 

dev1l

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My worry is can he command respect. The players are not disciplined in my view. They threw Mourinho under the bus and will more than likely throw ole as well. There is too much player power. They need a manager to come in and really just get into their heads like people in the army.
Agreed. Seems that we haven't got rid of the virus yet
 

Cassidy

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My worry is can he command respect. The players are not disciplined in my view. They threw Mourinho under the bus and will more than likely throw ole as well. There is too much player power. They need a manager to come in and really just get into their heads like people in the army.
This has more to do with the board not backing managers, rather than a manager not commanding respect.
 

JPRouve

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Son Kane and Sissoko all players he integrated?

Thats a fair statement and an open question.

Not sure about adapting to players because from what we saw, the time to integrate new players and push the team on was 2018 and he got no new players for 18 months.

He didn't really have very long to work with the likes of NDombele and Los Celso (who was injured up until Poch was sacked)
Spurs brought a lot more than 3 players but Kane and the striking position illustrates my point, none of Soldado, Llorente or Janssen were remotely good for him or looked like they fit into the team's gameplan. Sissoko didn't fit and was a flop until 2018 when Pochettino was forced to do without Dembélé. And Son is arguably Tottenham's best signing in the last decade, he is the exception not the norm.

To me it's quite obvious, he is good tactically and a good coach but he also seems stubborn unless pushed into a corner.
 

Skills

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This has more to do with the board not backing managers, rather than a manager not commanding respect.
I think the biggest issue is our fanbase in general is just massively out of touch with football. The players are far more valuable than the manager. Relative to the most expensive player on your team the manager is close to worthless - apart from maybe Klopp or Pep.

Madrid realise that and their motto is to do whatever it takes to keep their best players happy and performing. It's why they treat their managers like a condom, rather than a god/cult figurehead position he's given at our club.
 

Judas

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I feel fairly safe in saying if Poch comes in, we'll be back looking for a new manager within two and half seasons.

Fair play to those who are happy to get excited by him, but as much as I long for a change and to see some proper tactical knowhow and style implemented on this team, its not Poch's style I crave.
 

Leftback99

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The grass is always greener.

I'd expect to be reading the same complaints on here a few months into his reign. People will want the next flavour of the month in.

From what you read about him, training would be more intense and they'll get less days off. There's only one way that will go with our overpaid prima donnas at the first sign of a bad result.
 

Hugh Jass

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I feel fairly safe in saying if Poch comes in, we'll be back looking for a new manager within two and half seasons.

Fair play to those who are happy to get excited by him, but as much as I long for a change and to see some proper tactical knowhow and style implemented on this team, its not Poch's style I crave.
I think that is a good bet.
 

Hugh Jass

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The grass is always greener.

I'd expect to be reading the same complaints on here a few months into his reign. People will want the next flavour of the month in.

From what you read about him, training would be more intense and they'll get less days off. There's only one way that will go with our overpaid prima donnas at the first sign of a bad result.
He has to get of some toxic players at the club straight away. Lingard and Pogba for starters.
 

dev1l

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I feel fairly safe in saying if Poch comes in, we'll be back looking for a new manager within two and half seasons.

Fair play to those who are happy to get excited by him, but as much as I long for a change and to see some proper tactical knowhow and style implemented on this team, its not Poch's style I crave.
As long as you have someone in Florida taking footballing decisions, it won't work. The only successes United had under the Glazer was when they didn't mess with footballing decisions, when Fergie was still around.
We blame Woodward and Judge, but in the end they re just the executors of decisions taken in Florida.
 

CG1010

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This thread reminds me a lot of Redcafe's love in with Jose before he was made our manager. He was seen as the worthy manager who will surely bring success here (including me).
 

Skills

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Is there anything wrong with being in the market for another manager after 2 years?

I mean we're not looking for a foster father. We're looking for a bloke to do a job. If he's successful for 2 years and we think someone else might do a better job after, we should absolutely look to move on then.
 

JPRouve

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If we were to indulge in a post Ole shortlist, would Poch be at the top of your list despite the flaws you've perceived here? I can only see Tuchel as a likely "other" who may be out of work during this season.
I don't bother making a list, I'm a firm believer that none of the realistic options are actual managers, they are all head coaches and they will all bring the same issues regardless of their coaching abilities.Now I could answer the question differently and tell you who are my favorite head coaches at the moment, it would be Rose, Tuchel and Nagelsmann. None of them are attacking managers, they are all fairly pragmatic and their teams are well coached, in the case of Tuchel I have doubts about his ability to handle more scrutiny, he isn't diplomatic and I could see him lose it completely if he was questioned one too many time in clubs like Madrid, Barcelona, United or Juventus.
 

K_Ash

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If you really think POCH is the one (I don't) then now would be the time to get him. Like this week, not to take any chances with PSG. Tuchel and PSG will go separate ways shortly. Looking at Leonardo, Allegri would make sense imo for PSG. I am not sure someone like POCH with zero titles on his resume could get Neymar and Mbappe to press his way.
 

Leftback99

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This thread reminds me a lot of Redcafe's love in with Jose before he was made our manager. He was seen as the worthy manager who will surely bring success here (including me).
I was the same. I've long learnt the lesson that there isn't one man that will come in and solve everything, especially if it means just getting in the one guy that just happens to be available rather than any kind of long term plan.
 

anant

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None of that support your claim, I specifically said that none of them are good at short passing game and they aren't which is why the likes of Pogba, Fred and Matic drop deep and are the ones actually starting our transitions. None of them are good in a high defensive line and we get destroyed when opponents play a more direct style and none of the starting fullbacks are close to be playing like out and out wingers, they are both defensive fullbacks. It doesn't matter whether you believe that Ole is a good tactical coach, the conversation was about whether the squad is specialized or not and whether the next manager should follow Ole's style, none of the things you described in your previous post fit with the players that we have.
Also The mention of Shaw and big games highlights it, in the league he played 3 times as a CB last season, against City, Liverpool and Chelsea, you really think that he is a potential out and out winger?

So to go back to my point, Ole hasn't imposed a clear style, we still have a squad made of players that can do a bit of everything but excels at nothing, so there isn't really a strong argument behind the idea the we should hire a manager that has the same style than Ole.
May be not an out and out winger,, but more like providing support via overlapping runs.

And how are Maguire and Lindelof not good at passing - Both Maguire and Lindelof were among top 10 CBs last season in terms of number of short passes (filtered for CBs who played atleast 20 games)! It seems you're letting the last 3 odd games influence that. And as for the direct style of play - we conceded 3 goals from counter attacks last season - only 5 clubs conceded less than us -and none of those 5 finished in top 4 last season.
 

Zlatan 7

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He is an upgrade on Ole for a number of obvious reasons. Does that mean he is the right man no! But is he better than Ole? Their respective track records clearly says yes.

Ole beat him once and so? Bit weird to pick one game and say that. Didn't he do Ole at Old Trafford? Single games mean nothing. Also as others have pointed out Spurs absolutely dominated us second half so its not really true to say Ole won the tactical battle in that game

Refusal to change tactics? Do you think he played the same tactics over at Spurs for 5 years? Maybe you should do your homework first because you are clearly mistaken.

Shit signings? How many shit signings did he make at Spurs? Go on? His success vs others managers in the top6 clubs in spending and signings in the same period? Willing to bet he comes out looking good on that with

Dier, Sissoko, Alli, Son, Aldervereild etc. Thats not even really taking into account that transfers and signings were the main reasons he had issues with the Spurs board.

A few misses like Davinson Sanchez and Vincent Jansen but which teams in the same period don’t have a few of those?
I’ll bow out as I basically want to make the same point as @JPRouve it he’s more eloquent than me.
In five years You named five players and an etc. I don’t think that he done well buying players, if he had more money that doesn’t mean he all of a sudden would.

I’d end by agreeing that he’s a better coach than Ole, not enough to make a difference here so a pointless change and would prefer someone else.
 

Hugh Jass

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I think the days of Ferguson doing 25 years are over. We will be doing well to even have a manager stay 5 years. A PL or CL in that time would nearly be a success, especially a CL.
 

Cassidy

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Spurs brought a lot more than 3 players but Kane and the striking position illustrates my point, none of Soldado, Llorente or Janssen were remotely good for him or looked like they fit into the team's gameplan. Sissoko didn't fit and was a flop until 2018 when Pochettino was forced to do without Dembélé. And Son is arguably Tottenham's best signing in the last decade, he is the exception not the norm.

To me it's quite obvious, he is good tactically and a good coach but he also seems stubborn unless pushed into a corner.
Poch didn't sign Soldado did he and he was the main striker before Kane? May have that wrong, but I thought Soldado was there prior to Poch and bombed under the previous manager, Poch then integrated Kane as his replacement.

Llorente was a decent backup and came up with important goals, but it didn't seem like Poch wanted him.
Agree on Janssen

Yes I know they bought more than 3 players, but most of those were not starting 11 signings. There isn't a lot of starting 11 singings made to go off, and then when you add in the fact Poch has stated quite a few times that he is the head coach and doesn't have much say on transfers you see the issue.

Wanyama is another one which didn't work out but this seemed to be due to injury but not sure. I think there certainly is a question mark on signings, but I don't think we want a manager who makes signings, I would prefer a very good coach and a sporting director or system.

Integrating players into the side, plenty of players were integrated, they don't all need to be signings like Harry Winks.

However the main thing for me is that you would really get an idea of player integration after 2018 since thats when Spurs became really an established "top" side in the PL but there wasn't many signings posts that time to evaluate.

I think its fair as an open question rather than something to say he isn't good at. It took a while for him to establish a team at Spurs, and then he didn't really get the backing to evolve it from what I saw. I wouldn't begrudge him for not being able to integrate second rate singings like Clinton Nje whilst working with a tight budget

Davidson Sanchez is the one for me that showed some issue, but over the time I don't expect all signings to work out and I don't particularly see a poor ratio of starting 11 players brought in that he failed to get a tune out of
 
Last edited:

glazed

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I think a lot of this is the main issue.

Pochettino was a 'trendsetter' with Southampton and early spurs by rinsing a high level of fitness out of his teams, pressing high etc. Pep came over and had his version, everyone evolved to the fashion and slowly Poch's style was watered down by everyone else's implementation.
He didn't evolve it in any way over the 5 and a bit seasons, and very, very rarely had an effective 'Plan B' that was anything but a car crash. Wouldn't make a sub before the 80th minute unless he had to either. What this meant was that the high intensity just wrecked the players and the team's lifespan suffered.
He'd be great if you wanted to finish 2nd or 3rd consistently, but we never had the stamina for a full season - that's why Liverpool and Leicester won titles ahead of us, because we'd be great for the first 85% of the season, then tire and fall away for the rest.
That's a really good post. Poch would be an upgrade to Ole but really he would ideally be staging post on the way to attracting a real world class manager as dippers and noisy neighbours did. He's not the best - he's the best who would come right now.

But all this assumes that the club has ambition. Bottom line is that they don't, so that is the context in which they might bring in Poch. And that is the context within which he would only be able to do well for a short while before he runs into the same wall as the others - maybe a couple of seasons at best. Then he would be denied players same as the others.
 

RedSky

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I see, now that makes sense.

But is it actually that bad? Top 6 teams aren't supposed to lose at home and they rarely do, if I'm not mistaken 3 home loses has been the maximum between 2014 and 2019. I would argue that for that particular metric, a loss rate is more pertinent and it would be an interesting way to compare top teams in away games against each others.

Edit: My point isn't linked to Pochettino.
You raised a valid point, so I checked it out for you, see below:
Club​
Games*​
W​
D​
L​
CS​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Arsenal​
32​
3​
12​
17​
3​
40​
69​
-29​
Tottenham​
35​
4​
9​
22​
2​
41​
69​
-28​
Chelsea​
34​
5​
13​
16​
4​
29​
57​
-28​
Liverpool​
31​
9​
12​
10​
5​
41​
48​
-7​
United​
31​
10​
6​
15​
8​
26​
41​
-15​
City​
37​
12​
8​
17​
12​
44​
54​
-10​

*Top 6 away games all comps during Pochettinos time at Tottenham

Club​
Win %​
Draw %​
Loss %​
Arsenal​
9%​
38%​
53%​
Tottenham​
11%​
26%​
63%​
Chelsea​
15%​
38%​
47%​
Liverpool​
29%​
39%​
32%​
United​
32%​
19%​
48%​
City​
32%​
22%​
46%​

Now, you have to bare in mind that Tottenham at this point was fairly stable while others around them were in various states of rebuild. You would hope or assume that Pochettino would have been able to take advantage of that and be able to win more games. Alas, he can't. In the games that truly matter, he can't do it. It's why I think the top clubs are avoiding him in my opinion. Let's be fair, United have been largely abysmal during Pochettinos reign and we ended up with a far better record than he managed in the tough games. That should be a big red alarm right? Ultimately I guess it depends on what we want for our next United Manager, another man to come in and attempt a rebuild or a man to come in and take us back up to the top. If we want the later, Pochettino imo isn't that man.
 

Cassidy

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I’ll bow out as I basically want to make the same point as @JPRouve it he’s more eloquent than me.
In five years You named five players and an etc. I don’t think that he done well buying players, if he had more money that doesn’t mean he all of a sudden would.

I’d end by agreeing that he’s a better coach than Ole, not enough to make a difference here so a pointless change and would prefer someone else.
Yeah on @JPRouve point I agree somewhat, have never really said we should hire Poch. Only questioned anyone stating he isn't a better coach than Ole.

However on signings, how many starting 11 signings were made in those 5 years that didn't work out? I think the main point being that what happened at Spurs was more down to lack of spending to match the ambition. Poch being judged on not winning major trophies but the club not making the types of signings to match that. Also its not really over 5 years since he didn't get to make any signings for 18 months in that period.
 

CG1010

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I was the same. I've long learnt the lesson that there isn't one man that will come in and solve everything, especially if it means just getting in the one guy that just happens to be available rather than any kind of long term plan.
Exactly.. the point is not whether Ole is a better manager or Poch. It's how cleanly the narrative has again shifted to the manager, again woodword getting saved from fan outrage over his incompetence leading to loss of his job. If anything, following his summer of incompetence, his position at the club has only strengthened. Which is a pity!
 

glazed

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My other Poch concern is that his success was based in being an early adopter of high press. It seems like that trend in football has now reached its peak and teams are working out how to counter it. So in some ways he has reached his sell by date in terms of replicating the success he has already had.

The really good question is what is the next big thing? And will Poch be the man to find it, as he did with Southampton. Maybe so.
 

He'sRaldo

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I have seen some shit posting and shit posters over the last decade on the Caf. But you take the cake. Cultists like you are what is ailing the fanbase at the moment. Hope you can someday get rid of your blind hatred, irrespective of whether Pochettino or any other top coach manages us. But for now keep supporting your idol like the cultist you are. See if that saves his bacon. Find a thread where you can brown-nose him properly. And maybe feck off with him when United do get a new manager. Lunatic. Ignored.
You got baited mate.

Posters who try to WUM like that aren't worth a serious reply, much less a meltdown.
 

Mainoldo

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Rinse and repeat...does anyone really expect it the turn out any different.

It’s amazing the Glazers still have faith in anything Woody recommends.
Rinse and repeat or do what every football club in world football does unless you have he luck of a Wenger Fergie or Roux.
 

JPRouve

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You raised a valid point, so I checked it out for you, see below:
Club​
Games*​
W​
D​
L​
CS​
GF​
GA​
GD​
Arsenal​
32​
3​
12​
17​
3​
40​
69​
-29​
Tottenham​
35​
4​
9​
22​
2​
41​
69​
-28​
Chelsea​
34​
5​
13​
16​
4​
29​
57​
-28​
Liverpool​
31​
9​
12​
10​
5​
41​
48​
-7​
United​
31​
10​
6​
15​
8​
26​
41​
-15​
City​
37​
12​
8​
17​
12​
44​
54​
-10​

*Top 6 away games all comps during Pochettinos time at Tottenham

Club​
Win %​
Draw %​
Loss %​
Arsenal​
9%​
38%​
53%​
Tottenham​
11%​
26%​
63%​
Chelsea​
15%​
38%​
47%​
Liverpool​
29%​
39%​
32%​
United​
32%​
19%​
48%​
City​
32%​
22%​
46%​

Now, you have to bare in mind that Tottenham at this point was fairly stable while others around them were in various states of rebuild. You would hope or assume that Pochettino would have been able to take advantage of that and be able to win more games. Alas, he can't. In the games that truly matter, he can't do it. It's why I think the top clubs are avoiding him in my opinion. Let's be fair, United have been largely abysmal during Pochettinos reign and we ended up with a far better record than he managed in the tough games. That should be a big red alarm right? Ultimately I guess it depends on what we want for our next United Manager, another man to come in and attempt a rebuild or a man to come in and take us back up to the top. If we want the later, Pochettino imo isn't that man.
That looks like what I suspected. He basically took a bottom top 6 team and maintained them there, which is good but not great. And they should have had more draws and less losses while the amount of wins is acceptable. I don't know what you think but in the context of top 6 away games loss rates seem to give a better picture.