At least we knew what LVG was doing. It was tumescent but it had a ‘philosophy’ behind it. I kinda miss those days when our players had orders to follow.
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Is Ole an attacking or defensive manager?
- Thread starter Schmeichel's Cartwheel
- Start date
You clearly are missing the point or just don’t understand how hierarchy works. Ole doesn’t do the day to day coaching, of course. Just like any senior manager in any organisation doesn’t run the day to day management of every aspect of their team. But just as that senior manager sets the direction, the tone, the general plan, strategy, etc. - Ole does too. And just as if when things go wrong that senior manager would get his hands in the game to fix things, you’d expect Ole to do so too. A good manager who sees bad coaching would not idly sit by and let it happen he would at least engage in trying to rectify with them.
he's an indecisive manager.
How am I missing the point? You just said the same thing as my second paragraph in about 3 times as many words.
If you're missing LVG then it say a lot about our current plight.
It was obvious when we first started he wanted to implement a pressing style combined with fast counter attacking but that's dependent on a solid defence and a midfield that can work hard. He hasn't been helped by Pogba flitting in and out of form and attitude, a central defence that it woeful and FBs that don't support the attack very well.
Now that he's brought in Cavani and Telles we may see a change in style somewhat. Cavani is a proper CF while we've been playing with wide players who aren't that natural through the middle. We might see a Liverpool style front 3 with Cavani able to be like a Firmino bringing in;Martial,Greenwood and Rashford into play.
However so much of this is dependent on having leaders at the back. Even SAF had to address that first before building a PL winning side.
Except I didn’t. You said you can’t understand why people are talking about his coaching. Alas, I explained why it’s still relevant.
In other words, Ole is a pretender? Because that's who you've just described.
My problem with Ole is his purchase does not really match with his supposedly attacking, modern style. In modern football, fullbacks are key. Yet he bought Wan-bissaka. He wants CBs who are good with their feets, yet he bought Maguire after sending Smalling packing..
This is the only bit I don’t really agree with. As I said, if you look at the games last year in which we struggled badly against weaker sides we didn’t have anything like the attacking talent we have available now.
If we proved one thing last season it’s that Rashford is a dreadful CF and we really missed Martial over the Christmas period. Cavani has now come in to provide the backup we need for this position or even challenge for a starting spot.
Furthermore, in most of those games we played McTom, Fred and Pereira/Lingard as the midfield three. Hardly full of attacking flair is it! Replace that with two from Fernandes, Pogba and van de Beek and again, you’ve far more attacking talent in the team.
We also saw Greenwood start to get regular game time and replace Mata/James as the season developed, scoring 17 goals in total. Again, a massive upgrade.
I think if we went with a flat, unadventurous back four, Fred and Matic shielding and then Fernandes/van de Beek (CM) Pogba/Rashford (AML), Martial/Cavani (CF) and Greenwood/Rashford (AMR) we would be very hard to beat and we’ve enough individual talent to open teams up
You surely don't actually think this? He is more likeable that is for sure & I daresay he's done better than Moyes but it's not like LVG and Mou didn't get top four and both of them won things despite having vastly different playing styles and, I would argue, Ole has the strongest squad on paper. Most importantly you could see what LVG and Mou were trying to do, their styles contrasted but we were easily identifiable and there was a cohesive plan (regardless of whether we liked it) which is the thing that is most lacking currently.
We need to snap out of this myth that we don't have the players and the squad was 'thin' - compared to pretty much every team last season we had better individual players in almost every position. You only need to look at some of the players who have left us (Lukaku, Sanchez, Smalling, Young) who immediately improve/return to the level they were when they joined us to see the problem is internal.
Neither.
Think hed probably like to play something similar to Liverpool, but a combination of him not really knowing how, the teams best players not having the legs (Pogba Matic Maguire) or the level of intensity (Martial, Rashford, Pogba), means for now it’s basically a mishmash of not much in particular. Think he used the defend and counter last season to keep a poor teams head above water and it worked, he’d have probably liked to have a team capable of moving away from that this year but alas.
i actually said he is not better than the managers that came after sir alex. I didn’t say he is better.
also,i don’t agree that he had no role. Lots of games were won after he changed to 343 (that’s a tactical change no?).
need to give the guy some credit for what he has done. At least structure wise. Personally, although not fully happy with the team, i enjoy watching Ole’s united more than i did with other managers after sir alex.
We sort of play a 4-2-3-1 in defense, which is meant to change to a 3-2-5 in attack. Something like this:
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We kind of try to hold that shape as much as possible and interchange positions to cover for others. So, for example, if Shaw is caught further up the pitch, Fred might drop deeper to slot into the LB position and Bruno might drop into Fred's position to hold the shape. Once Shaw gets back, they all get back to their defensive 4-2-3-1 structure.
It's not brilliantly innovative or anything like that, many teams play this way. In the defensive phase we defend with a 4-2-3-1 and see if there's an option for a counter with the front 4 interchanging. In the offensive phase when we have the ball, we try to break down opponents with the 3-2-5.
The problem: For this system to truly work, you need players who will work hard to cover for others and also intelligent players who spot the breaks in formation and position to cover. This is especially the case for the midfield You also need slightly more attacking fullbacks who should be committed to get up and down the pitch quickly. Getting the right personnel for the roles you need is quite important, and we're not quite there in my view. A problem that is unrelated to the system is individual errors, and that's a biggie as well.
We kind of try to hold that shape as much as possible and interchange positions to cover for others. So, for example, if Shaw is caught further up the pitch, Fred might drop deeper to slot into the LB position and Bruno might drop into Fred's position to hold the shape. Once Shaw gets back, they all get back to their defensive 4-2-3-1 structure.
It's not brilliantly innovative or anything like that, many teams play this way. In the defensive phase we defend with a 4-2-3-1 and see if there's an option for a counter with the front 4 interchanging. In the offensive phase when we have the ball, we try to break down opponents with the 3-2-5.
The problem: For this system to truly work, you need players who will work hard to cover for others and also intelligent players who spot the breaks in formation and position to cover. This is especially the case for the midfield You also need slightly more attacking fullbacks who should be committed to get up and down the pitch quickly. Getting the right personnel for the roles you need is quite important, and we're not quite there in my view. A problem that is unrelated to the system is individual errors, and that's a biggie as well.
Hats off, eloquently put and pretty accurate imo.We sort of play a 4-2-3-1 in defense, which is meant to change to a 3-2-5 in attack. Something like this:
We kind of try to hold that shape as much as possible and interchange positions to cover for others. So, for example, if Shaw is caught further up the pitch, Fred might drop deeper to slot into the LB position and Bruno might drop into Fred's position to hold the shape. Once Shaw gets back, they all get back to their defensive 4-2-3-1 structure.
It's not brilliantly innovative or anything like that, many teams play this way. In the defensive phase we defend with a 4-2-3-1 and see if there's an option for a counter with the front 4 interchanging. In the offensive phase when we have the ball, we try to break down opponents with the 3-2-5.
The problem: For this system to truly work, you need players who will work hard to cover for others and also intelligent players who spot the breaks in formation and position to cover. This is especially the case for the midfield You also need slightly more attacking fullbacks who should be committed to get up and down the pitch quickly. Getting the right personnel for the roles you need is quite important, and we're not quite there in my view. A problem that is unrelated to the system is individual errors, and that's a biggie as well.
well players like fred and martial improved under him as well. Need to give it to him that the football is more offensive and less boring since he took over.
lots of work still needs to be done. But we should continue backing him.
He's an attacking coach at heart, but he has a pragmatic side. He wont have his team attack relentlessly if he doesn't believe his players can outperform the opponent. In that sense, and don't shoot me, he's similar to Fergie. Apart from the catastrophic Tottenham game, Solskjær has a great record against strong opponents. Possibly a stronger record than Fergie? The problem is that 75% of games are not against strong opponents. The way I see it, Solskjær struggles when:
1. The opponent wins the so-called "midfield battle".
or
2. Our attackers waste their chances.
Number 2 is more or less 100% down to the players, so you can't really fault Solskjær for that. The biggest issue is number 1. Our double-pivot is not working right now and it's killing our game. Bruno gets isolated despite working very hard, and our fullbacks don't dare(or simply can't) push forward.
Hopefully it's just lack of fitness(it's not just an excuse). RVP said that the first 5-6 games after the summer is torture. With the corona situation things are a bit different than usual, but it seems like most of the teams that played the European knockout rounds have been visibly worse so far. In any case, it would probably be wise to rest Pogba or Matic(or both!).
1. The opponent wins the so-called "midfield battle".
or
2. Our attackers waste their chances.
Number 2 is more or less 100% down to the players, so you can't really fault Solskjær for that. The biggest issue is number 1. Our double-pivot is not working right now and it's killing our game. Bruno gets isolated despite working very hard, and our fullbacks don't dare(or simply can't) push forward.
Hopefully it's just lack of fitness(it's not just an excuse). RVP said that the first 5-6 games after the summer is torture. With the corona situation things are a bit different than usual, but it seems like most of the teams that played the European knockout rounds have been visibly worse so far. In any case, it would probably be wise to rest Pogba or Matic(or both!).
Define more offensive because I don't see it. We have scored 66, 65, 68 (19/20 - 17/18) with that middle year being split between Jose/ole. Last season we scored 16 goals from a combination of penalties (10), corners (3) and Fks (3) meaning 50 in open play- compare that to Jose's last full season: 57 in open play (1 pen, 5 FK, 5 corners) and we scored more from open play under Jose who is probably the least attack minded PL coach. If you take away all the soundbites from Ole's press conferences (because there's no doubt he says the right things) we have looked our best in games where we have been allowed to sit back and counter, not when we have imposed ourselves on a team and controlled the game - our best performances were against possession heavy attacking teams like City, Chelsea, Brighton, Norwich and Bournemouth last season.
It's all well and good saying we want to attack and 'go and score the next goal' but we've only ever looked good when teams leave space for us to work the ball behind. You have to realise that the majority of Ole out fans (and appreciate some are toxic and just here to argue) actually like his ideas but we have not seen any evidence of progress in coming up to 20months of management. Say what you want about LVG but it was crystal clear he drilled his tactics into the team and, whilst not very exciting to watch and he bought badly, the actual tactical setup was very evident. Same can be said of Mourinho. Whereas Ole is playing like Mourinho but essentially saying we are trying to play like Liverpool and it's that huge disconnect that gives me huge worries to whether has has the ability to actually coach that style of play into a team which is full of international footballers and genuinely top players.
I couldn't agree more.
We definitely need to be more defensively sound, as a collective. That's partly down to a lack of pre-season and the situation as a whole (as we see from so many other games) but personnel as well. But I'm not sure this is how we should set up. This would be the same as Mourinho's United, only with a far lesser manager with no tactical ability to change things midstream, yet again relying on individual brilliance to get us points. In my view, we desperately lack competent coaching with a clear vision. Whilst I agree that Ole hasn't been helped this window, and that the team is still unbalanced, some of it is his own doing and he's also responsible for getting the best out of what he's got. His limited ability was visible when he finally landed on a first XI and flogged them to death.
The matches where we beat the big teams were also "small margin" matches, and we played like a small side. I didn't have a problem with it then, due to the players available, but now I'd have a problem with it and I'm not sure our best players are suited to that counter-attack approach. Though we definitely do not have the selection of players to play like Liverpool or City, we can definitely improve our passing game, our movement, our tempo. All of that is sorely lacking. A top manager would have this group of players consistently dominate lesser teams.
After two years in charge, not one person in this thread has been able to say confidently what or how he has tried to get United to play. Aside from a few months of decent attacking football, we have by large been average and lack lustre without any identity on the pitch. We are easy to play against and have made the most bang average midfielders look like world beaters.
Opposition fans can’t wait for their team to play United and you can see why.
Opposition fans can’t wait for their team to play United and you can see why.
From the outside looking in, his strengths seem to be:
Being a yes man to the people above
Being a mate to the players
Binging Netflix during matches
But seriously, I have no idea. We don't seem to have an identity.
Even teams like Burnley, Leeds, Wolves etc all have a clear identity and style of play.
We just seem to rely on individual brilliance and failing that, we rely on the refs to give us penalties.
I see an attacking manager but one that cannot bring it to the Premier league consistently.
It doesn't matter what formation or line up we start the match. It could be a circle for all I care when we kick off. But it is what happens during the game. I do not think Ole knows what he wants. If it is a pressing team then we all have to press and press hard. Which means everyone sprinting to press. We do not do that. We do half hearted press for the sake of it. You cannot press when Pogba is not pressing. You cannot press when the defence line is not up and has space between them and midfield and midfield has space between them and our forwards.
Look in depth at the way we play. We leave too much empty space. Too much. We bunch together like a sunday school team. There is no structure to this team. This why when players like Bruno or Martial do not play well we do not win games.
Look in depth at the way we play. We leave too much empty space. Too much. We bunch together like a sunday school team. There is no structure to this team. This why when players like Bruno or Martial do not play well we do not win games.
Also the fact that the back 3 you’ve got on the attacking formation are intolerably slow, and press up to expose their slug like speeds even more, leaving players like Zaha feeling like they are playing against their grand parents.We sort of play a 4-2-3-1 in defense, which is meant to change to a 3-2-5 in attack. Something like this:
We kind of try to hold that shape as much as possible and interchange positions to cover for others. So, for example, if Shaw is caught further up the pitch, Fred might drop deeper to slot into the LB position and Bruno might drop into Fred's position to hold the shape. Once Shaw gets back, they all get back to their defensive 4-2-3-1 structure.
It's not brilliantly innovative or anything like that, many teams play this way. In the defensive phase we defend with a 4-2-3-1 and see if there's an option for a counter with the front 4 interchanging. In the offensive phase when we have the ball, we try to break down opponents with the 3-2-5.
The problem: For this system to truly work, you need players who will work hard to cover for others and also intelligent players who spot the breaks in formation and position to cover. This is especially the case for the midfield You also need slightly more attacking fullbacks who should be committed to get up and down the pitch quickly. Getting the right personnel for the roles you need is quite important, and we're not quite there in my view. A problem that is unrelated to the system is individual errors, and that's a biggie as well.
I’m curious to know what metric you’re using to say Ole has done better than Mourinho? By the end of Mourinhos first 24 months here we had won two trophies and finished 2nd. Im confused as to what we’ve done under Ole that surpasses this. The football has seen scarce improvement and that’s only in little patches of games.
So yeah very curious .......
I enjoyed reading your analysis tomaldinho1, though I agree with some of it, I still believe he is attack minded and this was evident after the covid-19 break where the team came and played very exciting football until the players’ feet got really tired due to the thin squad.
we played very good counter attacking football against teams like liverpool and city also. We have to give him credit for changing the tactics against teams that are better than us currently.
I understand the frustration behind us being inconsistent. But we need to know the root cause. The root cause is lack if ability to rotate players. Unfortunately, this year we failed to strengthen as we should have, but at least we added some players (for example hope van de beek can take off the load from pogba and bruno).
we played very good counter attacking football against teams like liverpool and city also. We have to give him credit for changing the tactics against teams that are better than us currently.
I understand the frustration behind us being inconsistent. But we need to know the root cause. The root cause is lack if ability to rotate players. Unfortunately, this year we failed to strengthen as we should have, but at least we added some players (for example hope van de beek can take off the load from pogba and bruno).
That is flattering indeed! ThanksI'm happy I got you go post tactics again! I always enjoyed your posts when I was lurking. Hence me tagging you sometimes.
When Ole talks about pressing, it sounds to me more like old school closing down than the synchronized collective pressing used by modern teams. Of course I can be very wrong and he is just not someone who likes to talk extensively about tactics but his interviews never seem to focus on anything remotely precise or technical. I hear the likes of Klopp and Pep or even Brendan Rogers talking about phases, transitions, failures/success in very specific parts of the play. Whereas OGS sounds more like Graeme Souness or Harry Redknap with his talk about attitude, character, desire, playing for the shirt yada yada ... you know all the abstract things that always seem to be there when a team wins and not so much in defeat. Of course, there is a school of thought that the former examples are over-complicating the game and that's an entirely different conversation. But my point still remains, that OGS is just not interested or incapable of working that extensively on the technical and tactical side of coaching, regardless of whether one thinks that's a necessary part of modern football.
Ancelotti and Zidane are the only elite managers working today I can think of who also do not seem to micro coach à la modern trend. In both cases, their best successes came when they had a vastly superior squad to their competition. Ancelotti has never been a top league manager and made his legend by being very astute in his in-game management with AC Milan and Real Madrid relying on mega experienced stars who were also playing in a less tactically demanding era. Zidane and Real Madrid had about 4 or 5 players who are among the best in their positions in modern football. So I guess, yes, you can probably be a success without the coaching intensity of Klopp or Pep if half your team are best of all time contenders. Only catch is there is a reason only Real Madrid could manage to buy players of that caliber, it's just not a realistic target in the transfer market for anyone.
That might be It, yeah. It wouldn't reflect well on him though. Surely Ole knows what pressing actually means nowadays? But yeah, that issue connects perfectly to everything else you said.
I have been thinking that Ole doesn't really strike me as a 'football nerd', like Klopp or Pep are. I think that fits with what you're saying here.
Also, as you I suppose you know, while 'attitude, character, desire, playing for the shirt' are often presented as intangibles, innate, or related to personal motivation, a lot of them are actually tied to things you do in training and management. For example, matchday intensity is linked to training intensity: if training is a little subdued, that's how players step onto the field on matchday as well. And when teams look lacklustre, it's more often because they're shut down by the opponent or not sufficiently tactically astute themselves, rather than due to a lack of character or whatever. Therefore, often when you see these things mentioned, it's a case of deflecting blame from the management to the players as individuals.
I don't know enough about him, but Zidane apparently actually comes with rather precise game plans and tactical tweaks based on the opposition, and has strong in-game management. So in his case, maybe it's more a case of not caring to talk tactics to the press than actually not caring.
..and fell asleep. miss it.
I do miss being able to sleep the night after watching a match, it’s true.
Sadly it's during the match.
LVG is the most boring out of them four. In my whole life watching United, never felt asleep.
LVG's boringness is something else.