Are we jinxed or is there a coaching issue at Manchester United

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
31,122
I get what you mean. Players always look at the coach to sort out the problems. Always. When a team loses the question is asked what happened and how do we stop this happening. It is very easy for us to say Maguire did this and Bailly did this but in reality the mistake starts a lot earlier. It is down to the coaches to look at what happened and to stop it happening. To say that we have been a shambles is right.
I will give a couple of examples in the Spurs match.
1. Martial broke and Son pursued him and did not tackle him but slowed him down and the Spurs defence sprinted back.
2. Son broke and it was up to Matic to run after him and it was only a miss control that let DeGea save it. When they break our defence just jogs back.
3. When the Spurs full back went to score the goal, Pogba let him go.
4. When we were 1-3 down we still played the same way. We did not try to cut down the goals they scored.
5. So much space left for Spurs to play even when it was still 11 v 11. Look at the positional play of us. All over the place. Even when we attack there is no passing. We try to dribble with head down and try to take the whole opposing team. Why do not pass? DVB looks extremely puzzled as to what is happening on the pitch.
It is entirely due to lack of coaching.
Pretty much.

When 1-2 players are performing badly, it can be a player issue. When the entire team looks like a pub side that can barely string together an attack in 3 games (after a poor close to the previous season), you know there's a serious problem.
 

wrepdrep

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
129
Supports
AC Milan
You lack a mature, commanding presence at the front. Cavani might be a solution.
Martial and Rashford certainly aren't. They remind me of our Rafael Leao. Skilled players, with end product, but not mature or wise enough to be depended on.

You also lack balance. I mean, Rashford and Greenwood on the wings. Your underwhelming CB pair and Pogba can't offset that.

It also doesn't help that De Gea has plummeted.

Could a change of coach help? Obviously. I can't see someone like Allegri waste time on such unbalanced setups and projects that are doomed to fail.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
You lack a mature, commanding presence at the front. Cavani might be a solution.
Martial and Rashford certainly aren't. They remind me of our Rafael Leao. Skilled players, with end product, but not mature or wise enough to be depended on.

You also lack balance. I mean, Rashford and Greenwood on the wings. Your underwhelming CB pair and Pogba can't offset that.

It also doesn't help that De Gea has plummeted.

Could a change of coach help? Obviously. I can't see someone like Allegri waste time on such unbalanced setups and projects that are doomed to fail.
I have no idea why Ole insists on playing three players who are not tracking back. Yes it did work once with City but that is that.
 

remo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Messages
94
Location
Big Apple
I have no idea why Ole insists on playing three players who are not tracking back. Yes it did work once with City but that is that.
Because Ole is not experienced enough or not good enough. He is great person to have around but as a coach....
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
Because Ole is not experienced enough or not good enough. He is great person to have around but as a coach....
Surely there are analysists and recordings of every match at Manchester United for them to see? Can't they see the space we leave open? They can't be that blind or idiotic? These are not Sunday pub players but all International players playing for European countries. One even has a WC winners medal. They themselves individually cannot be that bad if they get selected for their countries.
 

Denis79

Full Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
7,752
Ole has a playing well against big sides counter attacking.

Against defensive setups a huge failure. You excel in the premiere league dominating smaller teams - not counter attacking and hanging on against the big boys.
He tried to play with a very high line vs Spurs which didn't go too well, really don't understand the thinking behind that choice.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
I think I did say in the Spurs match thread before the game that I feel Jose is going to attack us and that is exactly what he did. Why? Because he knows all about United and the players. He had Kane dropping deep and dragging Maguire with him and letting Son use that space. Then he knew that Rashford, Martial and especially Greenwood is not going to track back and he got most of the attack going on our left side.
You simply cannot play a highline with Maguire in it. Especially with Matic and Pogba in midfield.
 

ghagua

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
5,992
Our decision-makers are making a mess of hiring managers. First was Moyes, he was good at Everton, but the step up to United was not just for him. LvG has lost his ability to coach and manage a good team. He was appointed on the back of the Netherlands run at the world cup, which was crap to watch, but got them far. Maureen should not have been appointed at United with his history of sour ending with clubs. They all needed a good director of football to oversee the identifying and hiring of players.

Ole was an interim who had a good run and was given when the job when things should have been thought about carefully. Bruno coming in and giving this team a lift saved last season, but he cannot do everything himself on the pitch, that's why I expect the team to struggle this season. Hopefully, Cavani and Telles can give this team the same kind of lift to save this season.
 

Mindhunter

Full Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2013
Messages
3,629
I was firmly in the "Ole In" camp and definitely was in favor of giving him time and money to make it work. However, I am coming around to the idea of replacing him with a manager who focuses more on "coaching". Here is why:
  • As long as Glazers are our owners and Woodward is in charge, we will never get the top talents of the world and so getting most out of the players we do get is paramount; OGS definitely hasn't shown that trait
  • He has had some time with the players but has failed to stamp his authority and bring out a clear, definite plan of attacking as well as defending
  • His in game management leaves much to be desired; there is a huge scope for improvement
  • My assumption is that part of the reason why getting players is difficult is because OGS is inexperienced and hence players are asking for more money to come to us
  • He seems to be a "conflict avoider" and is fairly content keeping his job at the club; definitely not the traits I want to see from a club legend when our future looks so bleak
 

Davie Moyes

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
784
Location
Up North
I was firmly in the "Ole In" camp and definitely was in favor of giving him time and money to make it work. However, I am coming around to the idea of replacing him with a manager who focuses more on "coaching". Here is why:
  • As long as Glazers are our owners and Woodward is in charge, we will never get the top talents of the world and so getting most out of the players we do get is paramount; OGS definitely hasn't shown that trait
  • He has had some time with the players but has failed to stamp his authority and bring out a clear, definite plan of attacking as well as defending
  • His in game management leaves much to be desired; there is a huge scope for improvement
  • My assumption is that part of the reason why getting players is difficult is because OGS is inexperienced and hence players are asking for more money to come to us
  • He seems to be a "conflict avoider" and is fairly content keeping his job at the club; definitely not the traits I want to see from a club legend when our future looks so bleak
You seem to have summed up my thoughts exactly. Ever since we went on that good run since Bruno has come in I thought he's got us going places and hopefully with some top signings coming in over the summer we can kick on.

Now the more I think about it, why should it be about bringing in more expensive players. Why can't we improve the the current team with better coaching.
 

Greck

Full Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
7,099
I think I did say in the Spurs match thread before the game that I feel Jose is going to attack us and that is exactly what he did. Why? Because he knows all about United and the players. He had Kane dropping deep and dragging Maguire with him and letting Son use that space. Then he knew that Rashford, Martial and especially Greenwood is not going to track back and he got most of the attack going on our left side.
You simply cannot play a highline with Maguire in it. Especially with Matic and Pogba in midfield.
I think Ole will soon go back to sitting deep and playing predominantly on the counter to save his job, and quite frankly it might work. Playing Maguire high up is all sorts of suicide, why many never wanted him here
 

Class of 63

Sourness
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
9,028
Location
Going through the Desert on a Horse with no Name
I was firmly in the "Ole In" camp and definitely was in favor of giving him time and money to make it work. However, I am coming around to the idea of replacing him with a manager who focuses more on "coaching". Here is why:
  • As long as Glazers are our owners and Woodward is in charge, we will never get the top talents of the world and so getting most out of the players we do get is paramount; OGS definitely hasn't shown that trait
  • He has had some time with the players but has failed to stamp his authority and bring out a clear, definite plan of attacking as well as defending
  • His in game management leaves much to be desired; there is a huge scope for improvement
  • My assumption is that part of the reason why getting players is difficult is because OGS is inexperienced and hence players are asking for more money to come to us
  • He seems to be a "conflict avoider" and is fairly content keeping his job at the club; definitely not the traits I want to see from a club legend when our future looks so bleak
It's almost as though last season which finished less than two months ago never happened :rolleyes:
 

Crashoutcassius

Full Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
10,295
Location
playa del carmen
More of the same today

Why have the media turned so dramatically on united ? Were they just like the 1000s fans white knuckling and angry having to stay silent while we were doing well last season and making hay now while we are a disaster ?

It really is just made up quote after made up quote from every rubbish paper or journalist. These things always turn out to a lie or a creative msrepresentation but because it suits the narrative 'fans' will use it verbatim and say ' oh tom from the Sunday people has impeccable sources and ethics , this is straight from Woodward's mouth '
 

Goku23

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
Messages
211
It does feel like a jynx every good decent or world class player thats come here has under performed or been awful its very strange only Zlatan is the exception for me Pogba has shown flashes Di Maria started well and then everything went wrong Falcao was terrible and so on... We made Ronaldo he didnt come ready made plus Fergie was still here so it is a big mystery.
 

Xaviesta

Full Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
11,771
Location
Camp Nou
Supports
Barcelona
Interim solution is pretty darn easy. He's already at the club.
What, Ferguson? He's 79 in a few months. Doubt he needs the stress that will come with being back in the dugout even if it's til the end of the season.
 

Maticmaker

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
4,617
Harry Maguire was a better player when we bought him, than he is now. We can add Bruno, AWB, Pogba and James to that ever growing list. I was watching footage of AWB for Palace against Man City. He was attacking down the wing in their half. He was in City's box, getting crosses in. Now he won't cross the half-way line without getting the jitters. Maguire at Leicester was a dominating presence. When he came for a ball he always won it. He scored goals for Leicester. Even got 5 assists. He is way off that sort of form now. The player that Bruno was from January to March. He hasn't been near that since lockdown. Same with James. He was stretching teams with his pace. Away at the Ethihad last season, they couldn't handle him. Now he's a passenger. Pogba has had about 5 good games in 3 seasons. He was world class for Juve. We could go back to Sanchez, Lukaku, Di Maria...there is fundamentally something rotten at our club where players lose their level of performance, then get it back again as soon as they leave!

Why are we signing good players and then not getting the best out of them? Why is their confidence so low when they play for us. Where is the motivation? Where is the spark that we need to kick-start this team again?
Excellent post, says it all really.

We do indeed sign good players who when they arrive show what they can do, almost instantly, but then within months their performances fall off, sometimes dramatically. Playing for United, as Alan Shearer once said, was "like living in a goldfish bowl" he knew he couldn't stand the pressure and didn't sign.

Its like players get sucked into some sort of swamp, or doubt, of indecision, loss of confidence, apathy even, is it as a result of pressures in coaching, or poor man management, style of play, ???

It needs sorting because we have been going down this same path for years now and no matter how costly/expensive the players are, the same thing results with each and everyone,.... could it be they 'learn to play the United way' but are just not up to it?
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,519
The coaching system at United was in decline prior to Sir Alex's retirement. Who can't forget the many times our defence vanished in the treatment room and how promising talent like the twins, Jones and Smalling had been mismanaged and ruined? In time things got worse apart from a very small period when Rui Faria was on board but apart from that it was a shitstorm. LVG ended up with a bare bones squad same as Mou did at one point.

Ole has one of the most inexperienced group of coaches in the EPL so that certainly doesn't help. However I can't really pin this on Ole. Our players get injury too quickly, our fitness is crap and its not uncommon for players to leave the club and then do surprisingly well elsewhere (Zaha, Depay, Lukaku, Smalling etc)

As usual the blame lie with a lack of a top sporting director. United should have the best coaching staff available and the manager needs to learn to work with them. We can't have managers bringing in or promoting his mates as coaches as most managers after Sir Alex departure did.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
The coaching system at United was in decline prior to Sir Alex's retirement. Who can't forget the many times our defence vanished in the treatment room and how promising talent like the twins, Jones and Smalling had been mismanaged and ruined? In time things got worse apart from a very small period when Rui Faria was on board but apart from that it was a shitstorm. LVG ended up with a bare bones squad same as Mou did at one point.

Ole has one of the most inexperienced group of coaches in the EPL so that certainly doesn't help. However I can't really pin this on Ole. Our players get injury too quickly, our fitness is crap and its not uncommon for players to leave the club and then do surprisingly well elsewhere (Zaha, Depay, Lukaku, Smalling etc)

As usual the blame lie with a lack of a top sporting director. United should have the best coaching staff available and the manager needs to learn to work with them. We can't have managers bringing in or promoting his mates as coaches as most managers after Sir Alex departure did.
The coaching staff is hired by the Manager. He is in charge of everything. He can fire the medical staff too just like Jose did at Chelsea when he lost his cool. The fitness is also under him. He probably should have hired Rene but not sure if he can handle it either but it seems that he was the one involved when SAF was here in the latter part of his time.
 

Sea-Cow

Full Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
1,571
Excellent post, says it all really.

We do indeed sign good players who when they arrive show what they can do, almost instantly, but then within months their performances fall off, sometimes dramatically. Playing for United, as Alan Shearer once said, was "like living in a goldfish bowl" he knew he couldn't stand the pressure and didn't sign.

Its like players get sucked into some sort of swamp, or doubt, of indecision, loss of confidence, apathy even, is it as a result of pressures in coaching, or poor man management, style of play, ???

It needs sorting because we have been going down this same path for years now and no matter how costly/expensive the players are, the same thing results with each and everyone,.... could it be they 'learn to play the United way' but are just not up to it?
I don't get why our lads look like they are on Valium.
 

sparx99

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,852
One noticeable change has been that since Pogba came back from injury our balance has been completely off. It worked for a handful of games just after lockdown but teams have adjusted. I actually think we’d be better with Fred and McTominay instead of Matic and Pogba just for the energy and work rate. We have enough threat with the front four that Pogba isn’t really contributing in attack anyway and Matic can’t cover for him on his own.
 

Theonas

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
4,756
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Managers at modern clubs are basically just head coaches. They do not buy players or dictate the club's footballing strategy on their own. They are hired to coach and when you consider the amount of money they get paid, I think it should be evident how valuable coaching is. The way coaching gets treated sometimes in the English media or in forums make it sound like just another small part in the makeup of a club. Elite coaching which means the head coach as well as the coaching team around them is simply essential nowadays. The only example in the last decade of a team that succeeded without looking meticulously coached is probably Real Madrid but good luck assembling a squad of that quality.

Under Sir Alex, we were never coached to the levels of today, but it did not matter since our competition was the same. We were as coached as everybody around us in England at least. Then Ronaldo came when the landscape started changing and he did for us what he would go on to eventually do for Real Madrid. After he left, we were basically on auto-mode and got carried by a mixture of individual brilliance and the aura of Fergie's United. The cracks started to appear however in how we could not live with the modern possession and organised pressing teams.

Woodward and the board's biggest failure was not addressing the lack of coaching structure at the club. LvG was probably the only one who had that profile of someone who will work on that side of the footballing operation. The others did not fit that profile in the least. Having said that, it's disingenuous to act as though we need this perfect structure from the top down to play some half way decent football considering the ridiculous amount of money we have spent. Plenty of clubs did better with a circus masquerading as a board and a fraction of net spend. So yes, if we want to achieve elite level (peak Barcelona or Bayern), we do need a solid structure and a lot of things to come together. If we want to be a competitive team that plays good football, with the amount of money we spend, a decent coach would do!
 

Valuedrug

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
136
Not jinxed, and I don't think coaching is the main culprit either actually. Sure, Ole is not a great coach at all. Based on how we play, I think he tends to leave most of it to the players on the pitch along with a few tweaks him and his coaching staff identify. Probably "rousing" speeches here and there about how Fergie, Keano or someone else used to say or do things, and then covering the very basics, while trying to hide his own apprehension at the whole thing. He is clearly no visionary, just a huge United fan clinging on to his dream of being good enough for what honestly seems like an impossible job these days.

No, I think if I had to choose just one thing to explain the constant regression of players and coaches, I would point to the one thing they all have in common: the effects of the institution that is the club. The rules of the game at United are shaped by the goals pursued by the people in charge, and the signals their decisions sends to the people throughout the organisation.

What are players and coaches likely to experience coming into United? A lot of nostalgia, lofty speeches and massive external expectations from fans and the media. What they most likely also experience is heavy inertia in decision making, a commercial and branding focus that takes up more time and energy than in other clubs. And the biggest problem of all: a lack of unified and consistent footballing project at the club. Bruno, Maguire, Poga all of them - they came from real football clubs, where the focus was primarily to be the best football team within the means available. At United Phil Jones and Luke Shaw are still hanging around, and the team is left high and dry whenever crunch time comes around. Managers are hired based on whim, sentiment and nostalgia, flip flopping from one direction to the complete opposite. It's endless hypocrisy from Woodward and his cronies, while the Glazers jet around the world on their dividend money.

How can you expect professionals to sustain any kind of ambition and drive in that type of environment? Oh sure, they get a lot of money. But that stuff doesn't matter for motivation at this level, especially for the best players. They want to win trophies and beat the biggest teams ideally by playing great football. And if their ambitions aren't being matched by the rest of the club in terms of the players being brought in, the managers being hired, the facilities etc., they will lose motivation, and depending on their options just take the biggest pay day they can, or look for a way out. Going through the motions becomes second nature I suspect.

It's a corrosive culture, and I laud Ole for trying to change it. But he doesnt have the power, the ideas or the force of personality to get very far given the circumstances. Either United finds a Fergie level sorcerer to create a pocket of sanity in the madness, or something has to change at the highest level to signal a new direction for the club. I'm not holding my breath for either one at this point.
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
7,622
I think there is two issues. Ole knows his team and no matter how poor a player is the game before they are rarely dropped.

I also think when we sign players they are put on too much money. There is no incentive for half these players to play better to boost their pay packet. On top whack money and the team can barely qualify for the Champions League let alone winning the title.
 

SAFMUTD

New Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
11,787
Definately jinxed man, there's no way having a poor board and average coaches has anything to do with it.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
I just saw an hour long tactical and formation talk by Bielsa. I did not know he was that good. It was just like the Johan Cruijjf talk on how football was played. 10 formations with the same players only and then he went on to chose the best way to play with the current available players. These players change formations during the match but it is the same 11 players. FBs, coming into CB positions, midfield positions and winger positions. CBs going into FB positions, and into midfield positions and midfield players doing the same. It is a sort of an axis they move in various stages of the game.
If he could get a decent team he will work wonders. Multifunctionality of players he wants. Every player has to be able to play in three positions during the game. Player who has the best two positions is chosen over a player who can do only one function best. He says that in practice they have to practice playing in these 3 positions every day. According to his theory AWB is not going to be playing. ( He didn't mention AWB but a player who is only good in one function or position) So someone mentioned Fred as a right back in another post and it may work if Bielsa's theory is correct.
When you listen to his presentation you can see that everything that is wrong at United as per the way we play. He says a coach must believe in what he is doing on the pitch and he must show emotions on the pitch side. Otherwise no one will believe in you and what you are doing. He said football is an emotional game.
 

DrRodo

Honest worker, never posts
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
1,976
Location
Chile
Somewhat related

Alexis playing a blinder against Colombia right now. Still got it in him
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
3,198
I just saw an hour long tactical and formation talk by Bielsa. I did not know he was that good. It was just like the Johan Cruijjf talk on how football was played. 10 formations with the same players only and then he went on to chose the best way to play with the current available players. These players change formations during the match but it is the same 11 players. FBs, coming into CB positions, midfield positions and winger positions. CBs going into FB positions, and into midfield positions and midfield players doing the same. It is a sort of an axis they move in various stages of the game.
If he could get a decent team he will work wonders. Multifunctionality of players he wants. Every player has to be able to play in three positions during the game. Player who has the best two positions is chosen over a player who can do only one function best. He says that in practice they have to practice playing in these 3 positions every day. According to his theory AWB is not going to be playing. ( He didn't mention AWB but a player who is only good in one function or position) So someone mentioned Fred as a right back in another post and it may work if Bielsa's theory is correct.
When you listen to his presentation you can see that everything that is wrong at United as per the way we play. He says a coach must believe in what he is doing on the pitch and he must show emotions on the pitch side. Otherwise no one will believe in you and what you are doing. He said football is an emotional game.
Very interesting, do you mind sharing the video?
 

Web of Bissaka

Full Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
8,553
Location
Losing to Comeback Winning!
I think there is two issues. Ole knows his team and no matter how poor a player is the game before they are rarely dropped.

I also think when we sign players they are put on too much money. There is no incentive for half these players to play better to boost their pay packet. On top whack money and the team can barely qualify for the Champions League let alone winning the title.
Definitely breeding culture of complacency ~ the new United way
 

Web of Bissaka

Full Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
8,553
Location
Losing to Comeback Winning!
I just saw an hour long tactical and formation talk by Bielsa. I did not know he was that good. It was just like the Johan Cruijjf talk on how football was played. 10 formations with the same players only and then he went on to chose the best way to play with the current available players. These players change formations during the match but it is the same 11 players. FBs, coming into CB positions, midfield positions and winger positions. CBs going into FB positions, and into midfield positions and midfield players doing the same. It is a sort of an axis they move in various stages of the game.
If he could get a decent team he will work wonders. Multifunctionality of players he wants. Every player has to be able to play in three positions during the game. Player who has the best two positions is chosen over a player who can do only one function best. He says that in practice they have to practice playing in these 3 positions every day. According to his theory AWB is not going to be playing. ( He didn't mention AWB but a player who is only good in one function or position) So someone mentioned Fred as a right back in another post and it may work if Bielsa's theory is correct.
When you listen to his presentation you can see that everything that is wrong at United as per the way we play. He says a coach must believe in what he is doing on the pitch and he must show emotions on the pitch side. Otherwise no one will believe in you and what you are doing. He said football is an emotional game.
Cheers, reported for making a damn good post.

A shared link to the video(?) would be great.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
Very interesting, do you mind sharing the video?
It is already shared under Bielsa in the football forum. It is not what I shared but someone else shared. It is worth a look and there is English subtitles. It is amazing how he sees football being played and developed. I did not imagine how the same 11 players play in different positions in different stages of the match. Yes they do come back to their original positions once that phase of the game is over.
If his theory is implemented AWB is not going to play for United most probably. Because he is doing only thing of three things. Defend. Shaw would play and so would Lindelof and Maguire. He says the team should know when to press and when to drop back. It is more stupid to press when there is no need to press. It is better not to press in this instant. The movement of each player is so simple. Forward, backwards and inwards for the FB, Forward, backwards and sideways for the CB, Backwards, and sideways for the midfield. It is so simple when he shows on the graph.
Please have a look if you have time. It is over an hour though.
 

Foxbatt

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
Cheers, reported for making a damn good post.

A shared link to the video(?) would be great.
It is not mine but it is shared under Bielsa in the football forum here on redcafe. It is fully worth to have a look. It is over an hour.