Could you imagine a runner pretending he was tripped by a competitor to get him disqualified in a marathon race? There would be an outcry and rightly so, but it happens all the time, in soccer games, players are encouraged to simulate contact and feign injury. Pep Guardiola's sides are clearly coached to make tactical fouls as soon as they lose possession, as admitted by Arteta. Lamela pretended he was punched in the face by an 80s Mike Tyson to get Martial sent off a few weeks ago and it was seen by many as part of the game and Martial was naive to fall for it. Even the commentators criticise a player if he doesn't go to ground to try and win a penalty even though the contact was clearly not enough to knock him off his feet, I can't think of another sport where this kind of behaviour is not only condoned but widely embraced. In other sports as well when someone fails a drugs test they are practically shunned by the entire sporting community, in football fans gather rank and spend ages defending them and can't wait for them to come back from suspension, the same applies if they are suspended for some outrageous act - from Suarez and Terry's racist comments to Ferdinand missing a drugs test, fans will perform moral gymnastics to defend players on their teams. Diego Maradona failed drugs tests but that has not stopped many from saying he is the greatest they ever saw, Ben Johnson in athletics is dismissed as a drugs cheat because he failed a drugs test, his breaking of the world record dismissed because of the controversy. Then again maybe it adds to the drama and sets football aside from other sports?
Is football the only sport where cheating is encouraged?
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Apple and Orange. Contact sport vs non contact sport.
Even basketball has been getting some stupid play acting of their own over the years.
Even basketball has been getting some stupid play acting of their own over the years.
It happens in the NBA but it's frowned upon. The OP is asking about the culture around it encouraging it.
They do it (contact sport) because they try to get an edge to win. It's not like fan would cheer and celebrate cheating itself. It's just part of package of the sport. Not just football culture vs other sport culture.
The lawmakers have made their own bed. If they wanted to stamp out tactical fouling they should’ve got on top of it 10 years ago and started booking players whenever they did it. It’s not hard to spot, really.
If the lawmakers wanted to discourage playacting they should punish cheating harsher. For example, Lamela could’ve been shown a red for his elbow, but since the ref only thought an elbow to the throat out of play is a yellow he also had the option to show him yellow + yellow for simulation and that’d have disincentivized the dive.
But they don’t. So players keep cheating and coaches keep using it as a tactic.
If the lawmakers wanted to discourage playacting they should punish cheating harsher. For example, Lamela could’ve been shown a red for his elbow, but since the ref only thought an elbow to the throat out of play is a yellow he also had the option to show him yellow + yellow for simulation and that’d have disincentivized the dive.
But they don’t. So players keep cheating and coaches keep using it as a tactic.
Try 50 years ago
I think it is still frowned upon in football, right? NBA is similar in that some teams/players are known for diving or embellishing while opposing fans, coaches and players complain about it but it has been very difficult to stamp out. Maybe it is not as widespread in the NBA, but I'd say it is similar, just on a much smaller scale. Weren't there a few features on Sky Sports programs about tactical fouls? It is a known problem and it is criticized but it is just difficult to find a solution
Maybe in North American sports, like hockey and the NFL, similar "cheating" problems exist, but on the opposite end of the spectrum. Instead of play acting, some NHL and NFL teams/players push the boundaries of acceptable behaviour in their sports by taking cheap shots or being rougher then is normally accepted or expected. For years defensive linemen often took head shots or took shots at the quarterback's legs. Maybe not strictly illegal at the time, but frowned upon for sure, but it still happened until it was outlawed more recently.
I think "cheating" is a common aspect of sports, it just about the ways boundaries are actually pushed. I think it also becomes a much bigger issue NA sports in the playoffs where this type of rule bending or cheating is much more accepted and the rules seem to be more lax
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This is a great thread and something I’ve been thinking about for ages. How can it possibly be accepted that Martials tap on the head is a red card? I have long maintained there should be a rule which says “would the player go to ground if that same event happened on the street”, the answer In so many cases is would they feck! VAR could have been used to completely stamp play acting, diving and tactical fouls out the game but instead it’s nitpicking on the handball rule which was never an issue and awarding extra penalties left, right and centre.
The issue is it’s embarrassing for the sport. I have friends who don’t enjoy football primarily because of the play acting. These are often 6ft guys strong as an ox and yet at the slightest touch they are down, well let’s see how long they do that when VAR starts dishing out straight reds for acting.
The issue is it’s embarrassing for the sport. I have friends who don’t enjoy football primarily because of the play acting. These are often 6ft guys strong as an ox and yet at the slightest touch they are down, well let’s see how long they do that when VAR starts dishing out straight reds for acting.
Living abroad and being Irish I have a lot of friends who play GAA, Aussie Rules and rugby - they cringe at the antics of football players. They dismiss certain players who are seen as hardmen in soccer as only being "soccer tough" for example. They see elements of the sport as an embarrassment and how can people act that way call themselves men, saying if you did that in their sport you would not only be banned and humiliated you would also get a bollocking from your own team mates.
Ice Hockey team mates spend half their free time sharing ways to put opponents in hospital.
I think it would be awesome if players were allowed to fight properly. Even just as half time entertainment!
Ice hockey is a really underrated sport to go watch live (before pandemic). Stadiums, atmosphere, even refreshments all terrific...
Yes, it is... In my opinion one of the, maybe thé biggest threat to the beauty of our sport.. We should act way stricter on all the cheating/acting cnuts out there... Make sure that in no way you can be rewarded or benefitted from cheating your oponent or the referee...
Yeah, I’m the same. Football (soccer to my GAA supporting friends) can be so fecking embarrassing. As well as the play-acting and obvious cheating the pretend “fights” where they put their foreheads close together and try to look ‘ard make me die inside, every single time.
I can't stand diving or any other form of cheating. I just don't understand how someone can feel they achieved something while doing so.
The Martial/Lamela incident would have been an ideal way to kick off the clamp down on it. So what if the ref and VAR only thought to give a yellow, the FA should look at it and say, nah we're not having that, and give him a suspension. It's the only way to stop or minimise that shite. Even Spurs knew they'd got away with one, hooking him at half time.
The Martial/Lamela incident would have been an ideal way to kick off the clamp down on it. So what if the ref and VAR only thought to give a yellow, the FA should look at it and say, nah we're not having that, and give him a suspension. It's the only way to stop or minimise that shite. Even Spurs knew they'd got away with one, hooking him at half time.
Could you imagine Neymar, Lamela, Salah and countless others trying to pull that shit in another sport?
Exactly, this can only change from the top. They can easily hand out retrospective bans to players who are caught blatantly cheating. The hardest part is to draw a line and distinguish from play acting and genuine pain/injury. But they should still hand out huge suspensions to cases where there is a clear and obvious cheating (for instance when there was absolutely no contact or something). I think they are doing this at some level already?
As long as it’s tolerated though, every coach at the top would encourage it since it could result in a game changing moment, and no one can blame them.
It's quite sad how many times I say "he should've gone down there" nowadays.
I've always been told it's just cultural. Western Europeans and even moreso North Americans have a belief structure largely grounded in 'doing the right thing' and 'playing the game the right way'. My understanding is that other cultures - particularly in football - don't really share that, it's much more about winning the game by any means. My dad was a referee who did a fair few international matches and said the South American players were generally really polite before and after a match, but during they were absolute disasters. Whereas back in his day (70s and 80s) the European teams were all about hand shakes and decorum.
Personally believe that cheating is actively encouraged right now given that the media find it so much easier to talk about referees than football. The punditry has basically become referee-questioning, rather than actual football analysis. Because it's easier and gets people angrier.
Personally believe that cheating is actively encouraged right now given that the media find it so much easier to talk about referees than football. The punditry has basically become referee-questioning, rather than actual football analysis. Because it's easier and gets people angrier.
There is a reward for going down so players do it. It happens in the NBA as well where you will see 7foot guys going down to touches an infant wont even cry about
Sorry but that's nonsense, there is plenty of it going on in GAA and far worse that the playacting we see in soccer is the 'sledging' that goes on it GAA.
I cant speak for auzzie rules.
I love Rugby and watch it even more than football, anyone pretending that there is no playacting is a liar. And scrum halves are professional cheats, they will pretend that they can't get the ball out of a ruck in order to milk a penalty, they will throw the ball on an opponent that is replacing himself on side in order to milk an offside penalty, they will pretend that they can't introduce the ball on scrums when they see that their scrum is going to lose.
And captains always demand yellow cards for the opposition.
Even little things are not seen as cheating. I mean a player blatantly kicks the ball out (for a goal kick) and will claim it came off another player (to get a corner). I mean thats a good way to take advantage and nothing is said cos its just accepted with the hope that the ref believes you or didnt see it so guesses.
Happens in the NFL as well. Defensive linemen regularly pretend to be held if they can make a play on the QB or ball carrier. Wide receivers feign pass interference all the time.
There's plenty of "cheating" in those sports too. AFL even decided to create their own name for diving (as is their MO) calling it "staging" instead.
Then you have the likes of Paul Gallen who was a dreadful cheat (both feigning injury to win penalties and his farcical drugs ban) who is one of the main analysts on channel 9.
Rugby union is a sport where games are regularly decided by who can manage the referee best. Richie McCaw was an absolute legend of the sport for being able to bend the rules at the breakdown.
Up until the last couple of years, both the AFL and NRL regularly had massive all in brawls. I suppose the question is, what's worse for the reputation of a sport, what Lamela did or 2 guys punching the living crap out of each other?
The point is, there are "dark arts" in every sport. Usually those that complain the loudest are the most naive who lose out to a more "streetwise" opponent. Lamela was a disgrace but Martial was an utter moron.
In football, diving is actively encouraged by the way it is officiated. If Lamela stayed on his feet, Martial would have stayed on the pitch. If a player is clipped in the area and stays on his feet he won't get a penalty. If they want to stamp out diving, change that.
That’s when the ‘tough guys’ turn into little puppies.
Tactical fouls are actively celebrated as clever play and taking one for the team when they’re 100% just cheating. Does my head in.
It would have been very easy, and still is to stamp out diving. Especially now we have var. An instant red card for diving in the penalty box and a yellow for outside. Players would be way more inclined to try and stay on their feet if they thought throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest of touches would result in a red.
Sophisticated people call that gamesmanship, the only issue with football is the lack of finesse. In the NHL skaters will sometimes hook their opponents and pretend that they are the ones victims of hooking, there is also the technique of elevating the opponents sticks in order to get a high-stick penalty.
Stopped reading at "soccer".
Apart from the very rare cases, there is no way to determine beyond a reasonable doubt whether a player dived, tripped or was genuinely fouled, which is why it will never be stamped out of the game until the players decide to stop cheating.
There is only so much the officials can do.
Amongst all sports fans I know, the answer is what Lamela did. 100%.
If you ain't cheating you clearly don't care enough
Seems like it's encouraged in cycling too:
And let's not forget any sport the Russians do.
And let's not forget any sport the Russians do.
Yeah, I hate it. Too ingrained in the game by this point though.
But check out the roster.
It’s almost on par with Rivaldo at the World Cup.
the Lamela incident is pathetic. I hope someone goes (legally) through him in the next match.
the fact that there has been little outrage, shows how bad it is.
ideally he should be written to and told how poor his behaviour is.
I’m not saying Martial should not be punished, but we need to clamp down on this sort of appalling behaviour.
I think his reaction is far worse that what Martial did. Let’s call it like it is.
Lamela cheated to get Martial sent off and gain an advantage.
Yes he cheated but didn't force Martial to react in the way that he did - especially with putting his hand on his face/neck area. If Martial had simply pushed him away then it would have been a stern warning or possibly a yellow card. The rules are very clear in the sense that you cannot go away with violent conduct which Martial demonstrated.
Calling Lamela names isn't going to change it really. What these type of threads do is take focus away from the real issue behind the red card which was Martial's behavior and not Lamela's chicanery. Lots of people face this type of behavior in their lives without lashing out like how Martial did. Many of us here wouldn't have bat an eyelid if Lamela was also sent off which tells us that we are looking to even scores and not eliminate the behavior.
Yeah I guess I would be talking about cases where Var showed there was zero contact. This seems to have lessened over the past few years. Now it's certainly more a case of the "dark arts" where an attacker will suddenly lean in to the defender to initiate the contact and then go down as if fouled. Or simply, a hand on the back of the attacker and the guy goes down with his arms in the air.
We've essentially gone too far the other way now. In the sense that there's not much zero contact diving, it's become much more snide and the attackers have blurred the lines with grey making it much harder to punish this new kind of diving. They can always protest that it was enough to send them down. Even though to all and sundry we can see that it isn't. The problem with diving is undoubtedly more problematic in the penalty area, since it almost guarantees a goal if awarded. The risk/reward ratio for the attacker is very low risk, very high reward. This needs to change. There needs to be some implementation of specific rules in the penalty area. Obviously not perfect, but it could start with discussions around what defenders can do in terms of physical contact. If a player goes down because he has a hand on the back when moving slowly then that should not be a penalty. You have to allow defenders to use their bodies to a reasonable degree, to defend. But, if the player is moving at speed and that arm is flung at him clearly knocking him off balance then that should obviously be a pen. I think they need to start having more discussions around these grey areas. Especially with the advent of VAR. We've had too many hard and fast rules which have been a disaster, especially this season with the ridiculous cut and dry handball rule that was changed after just a few weeks.
I couldn't agree more! How have we got to the stage where it's more shocking to tap someone on the head than dive to the floor pretending to be in pain? Honestly, Martial was sent off for 'Violent Conduct' I'd love someone to explain how a tap on the head is more violent than a full attempted elbow. Imagine how great football would be without this nonsense!
But I'd argue that's precisely the issue. What Martial did isn't violent, he isn't going to hurt Lamella doing that is he? I understand that it's a red under current rules, I just think its a clear example of prioritising the wrong issue. In that incident, one player has made a mockery of the sport, cheated and play-acted and I'll give you a hint it wasn't Martial. What people are actually saying/condoning is that Martial should have dived to the floor screaming when Lamella tried to elbow him but surely that's not the solution, isn't it much simpler to just punish the player diving to the ground, faking an injury?
Also, I don't know where you live but if someone tried to elbow me in the street (or at work) i don't think id respond by giving them a light tap on the head!