The [non] use of Van de Beek - Ole's player?

[The_Midfielder]

DVB is not a number 10... he’s a very versatile CM who can play as a 6, 8, or 10. If he and Fernandes were put up for sale tomorrow, I genuinely feel Europe’s top clubs would be more interested in DVB.

Over Fernandes? Bruno is playing like a100M player since he joined us...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Let's not get carried away. It's like we all want to unsettle VdB. We are 8 games into a season that typically has 50-55 matches. I'm sure there will be plenty of game time for him this year. Sure, I'd like to see more of him now, but his time will come...

 

[archiebald]

DVB is not a number 10... he’s a very versatile CM who can play as a 6, 8, or 10. If he and Fernandes were put up for sale tomorrow, I genuinely feel Europe’s top clubs would be more interested in DVB.

Considering how easily we got him I honestly doubt that claim, not that VDB is a bad player by any means.

 

[NoPace]

My guess is VDB was bought to replace Pogba, who will leave next year or the year after.

VDB, Bruno, Fred and McTominay to fill the 3 spots, and we add another player to give us 5 (maybe Garner comes back to be #6), could be a 10 or a DM or a box to box player really, depending on how McTominay develops.

 

[flash F.C.]

Dont understand why people are being so judgmental, he will play enough and some ex united players should understand squad depth is necessary.

 

[Snow]

I mean there were already reports out of the Netherlands, mainly quoting one of Donny's mentors who's very influential in Ajax circles, complaining that he's not playing as much as he should and that was during the first few weeks of the season.

Donny's actual agent had a public statement trying to be diplomatic but that sentiment has been gaining traction back home and it's just this week that English pundits have started to speak on the topic. Neville and Evra were just giving their opinions as they're paid to do.

Personally I do wish he'd be introduced earlier in certain games but I also understand Ole potentially wanting to ease him in. Still with him being our main transfer outside of deadline day and our most expensive, it's only natural that there's more attention being paid to him especially when we've been struggling in the league to start the season.

How was he one of Donny's mentors? When Donny was 10 the guy was close to 70 and not coaching. He's a former player, an Ajax legend, that had some business with Donny's agency maybe at one point.

 

[kouroux]

You can't sign a player for 40 million and not play him. It defies logic.

McTominnay, Mata and Dan James should not be starting ahead of Donny. It's laughable, and just shows the level of manager Ole is.

It's not that simple tbh. 40m isn't that much money in the current football world and besides a player's price should never dictate his playing time and expectations. It should be about his ability and performances

 

[croadyman]

My guess is VDB was bought to replace Pogba, who will leave next year or the year after.

VDB, Bruno, Fred and McTominay to fill the 3 spots, and we add another player to give us 5 (maybe Garner comes back to be #6), could be a 10 or a DM or a box to box player really, depending on how McTominay develops.

A DM (mobile) is the one that we need most out of those without any doubt because that space hasn't been filled in years

 

[NoPace]

A DM (mobile) is the one that we need most out of those without any doubt because that space hasn't been filled in years

Yeah, I mean if we want a genuine treble contending midfield, post-Pogba, I imagine it looks like this:

Bruno(#10)----VDB(Fred)
-------#6(McTominay)------

That looks proper balanced to me.

 

[RashysTekkers]

We're like, 5 or 6 games into the season, with possibly 50+ games left to play. The meltdown from some people here is just hilarious.

 

[Rolaholic]

How was he one of Donny's mentors? When Donny was 10 the guy was close to 70 and not coaching. He's a former player, an Ajax legend, that had some business with Donny's agency maybe at one point.

Well that's how I've seen Ajax fans describe his role with at the club with their players when the press claimed he was his agent and they know much more on the subject than I do.

His actual agent said as much as well when he called him a mentor and advisor to Donny when he refuted the public reports but what do they know I suppose...

 

[GazTheLegend]

Ferran Torres has no starts for Manchester City.

Is he Peps player @Fortitude ?

Everyone's overthinking these things. Give players a chance to acclimatise

 

[sparx99]

Ferran Torres has no starts for Manchester City.

Is he Peps player @Fortitude ?

Everyone's overthinking these things. Give players a chance to acclimatise

They really are. Lo Celso, Naby Keira, Fabinho, Fred etc all had time to settle and then stake a claim for a first team place.

It would actually be counter productive to sign a guy and he just goes straight into the team. Yes, you can argue we haven’t been playing well enough to justify his non-selection but at the same time it shouldn’t be a given for a new guy to just walk into the team.

 

[crossy1686]

Ferran Torres has no starts for Manchester City.

Is he Peps player @Fortitude ?

Everyone's overthinking these things. Give players a chance to acclimatise

Ziyech also has 0 PL starts for Chelsea it's worth noting but obviously United and Ole are the only major news here.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Who's chatting about that Minamino guy also? the guy's hardly played 7-8 matches since signing for Liverpool and not a peep out of them.

I hope Ole plays him tomorrow night, he will either be fantastic and work his way into the team or play awful and shut everybody up for a while.

 

[sparx99]

I was just going by what I heard in terms of his goal-scoring and getting in the box supposedly being his best asset. It would seem a shame not to have him up there and waste that ability.

The problem is that he doesn't seem to fit into the current first team, even though he looks really good. It's a weird signing unless we are considering a major change to the midfield.

It’s not a weird signing. Most fans have been bemoaning the fact that City will go and sign Mahrez when they have Sterling and Sane. Or Bernardo Silva when they have De Bruyne and Silva. It’s about competition for places and squad depth. He may well take Bruno or Pogba’s place or Fred/McT in the next few weeks.

At the moment it seems the manager and coaches are working through the squad based on form. So Matic and Pogba started season poorly and lost their place to Fred and McTominay.

 

[romufc]

Its not a narrative. Do you think people on Redcafe only started watching football yesterday? I think the vast majority supports Man Utd for very many years already, and these people understand something.

James is not a starter. Since lockdown, he has barely got a start in the PL, so it is a narrative for Ole outers.

 

[romufc]

Ziyech who has come back from an injury probably has played more minutes than DVB in the PL. We played Mata and James ffs.

Well, he hasnt. Ziyech has played 27 minutes and Donny 60. Plus Donny has had league cup starts too.

Never knew Donny is a winger? Can you name me 5 games where Donny has played on the wing?

 

[klsv]

Well, he hasnt. Ziyech has played 27 minutes and Donny 60. Plus Donny has had league cup starts too.

Never knew Donny is a winger? Can you name me 5 games where Donny has played on the wing?

People don't where to play him, just moan for the sake of it. The match day thread for Leipzig and the one about our best XI are good examples of it. VDB is either on the bench or shoe horned into playing as a DM.

 

[romufc]

People don't where to play him, just moan for the sake of it. The match day thread for Leipzig and the one about our best XI are good examples of it. VDB is either on the bench or shoe horned into playing as a DM.

That's exactly what it is, some people make him sound like he is a WC player that will transform us.
Others want to drop the player that did transform us in Bruno.

Who is Ole going to trust in the 10? Bruno who has been delivering and has most key passes in the PL this season or a player he has just signed ?

The fans are partly to blame for this, anything other than a convincing win, Ole out are in full force which has meant Ole cannot tinker with his team.

 

[Fortitude]

Ferran Torres has no starts for Manchester City.

Is he Peps player @Fortitude ?

Everyone's overthinking these things. Give players a chance to acclimatise

Out of interest, did you read the OP?

Starting isn't the issue, to my mind at least - that tangent seems to have taken a life of its own - but minutes off the bench is something else entirely.

He isn't a single position player and his football education means he has knowledge of other positions or the concepts behind them even if they're not part of his known [professional] repertoire. It's not a case of if he's not in position Y, he's useless, especially so contrasted to some of the players who are featuring.

With our personnel tweaking to what we have makes more sense than utilising players who are not good enough, in any capacity, or do you think that statement is incorrect?

 

[Idxomer]

All that he doesn't play on the wings talk.

Maybe, if your team doesn't have any decent winger available, don't play with a system that requires two of them.

 

[Stretender]

Out of interest, did you read the OP?

Starting isn't the issue, to my mind at least - that tangent seems to have taken a life of its own - but minutes off the bench is something else entirely.

He isn't a single position player and his football education means he has knowledge of other positions or the concepts behind them even if they're not part of his known [professional] repertoire. It's not a case of if he's not in position Y, he's useless, especially so contrasted to some of the players who are featuring.

With our personnel tweaking to what we have makes more sense than utilising players who are not good enough, in any capacity, or do you think that statement is incorrect?

Exactly that's where most people are missing the point. Van De Beek is not a player limited to one position.

He is an intelligent player and I can name 6 players in this first 11 who are not better than Van De Beek.

If Ole the clueless one can not find space for Van De Beek in this poor United team, how do people think he would have dealt with Sancho, Greenwood, Martial and Rashford?

Woodward was probably right in not signing Sancho because the clueless one would have struggled to fit him in.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Out of interest, did you read the OP?

Starting isn't the issue, to my mind at least - that tangent seems to have taken a life of its own - but minutes off the bench is something else entirely.

He isn't a single position player and his football education means he has knowledge of other positions or the concepts behind them even if they're not part of his known [professional] repertoire. It's not a case of if he's not in position Y, he's useless, especially so contrasted to some of the players who are featuring.

With our personnel tweaking to what we have makes more sense than utilising players who are not good enough, in any capacity, or do you think that statement is incorrect?

Yeah I read the OP, there's nothing in there that I've missed?

But to answer your question with complete honesty - I think that van den Beek has been bought in the main because Pogba hasn't signed a new contract yet, and van den Beek is clearly a good player. He can't start yet because it's an awkward situation but it's a really nice 'problem' to have when for once we are questioning how GOOD players are comparative to another excellent player instead of "which player is the least shitty liability" in midfield or defence these days

 

[Stretender]

It's not that simple tbh. 40m isn't that much money in the current football world and besides a player's price should never dictate his playing time and expectations. It should be about his ability and performances

Don't start me on the money bit. No club has 40 million to waste and just treat it like its 40 pounds change from buying a replica shirt in a club shop.

To suggest 40 million is nothing is simply a symptom of the football fan of today. We couldn't sell Smalling to Roma on the cheap, refused to sell Romero on the cheap and refused to pay Dortmund 120 million for Sancho and you get people saying 40 million is nothing. That is an argument of a spoilt fan who thinks all this is football manager.

Secondly, Van De Beek is a player who is intelligent enough to play different positions. He is not a limited specialist footballer and that's what sets him apart.

If Van De Beek could not play where Mata, McTominnay and James were playing then he is of no use here. My point is that in all those 3 positions Van De Beek is a better player.

If Ole is struggling to play Van De Beek, how would he have fitted in Sancho among Greenwood, Martial and Rashford? To me he is a simpleton of a manager and hopefully this is his last season here. He is one dimensional and that is not good enough for Manchester United.

 

[Gasolin]

Exactly that's where most people are missing the point. Van De Beek is not a player limited to one position.

He is an intelligent player and I can name 6 players in this first 11 who are not better than Van De Beek.

If Ole the clueless one can not find space for Van De Beek in this poor United team, how do people think he would have dealt with Sancho, Greenwood, Martial and Rashford?

Woodward was probably right in not signing Sancho because the clueless one would have struggled to fit him in.

This is incredible!!!

I'll just post this since you have such a difficult time to figure out what's going on.
But sure, Ole is the clueless one...

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Since you might be lazy, let me copy a bit of this thread to make you understand how the player and Ole feel about what you just said above.

Donny in his 1st interview abt what Ole told him: "He said he knew exactly what my biggest strengths are & told me that he wants me to be in & around the 16 yard box at Man United too." 'Being in and around the 16 yard box' - Donny signed bcs he wanted to play up the field

Ole: "His ability to see space, time his movements & read the game will really complement the qualities that we've in midfield. His arrival really strengthens the depth of talent we have in that position" Keyword: 'depth'

Now you're thinking "but VDB won't be ok with this!" VDB: “I'll start at zero again at ManUtd. That might seem sad, but I love it. If you start down the ladder you can begin to climb up again. It’s now up to me to see how high I can reach. I see this as a challenge.” Mentality!

So both the player and Ole want to play in the box, yet, you think he should be played as a 6 or a 8? Why? Do you think he will accept it?
And also, both the player, and Ole, love the idea of fighting for competition and succeed in a much bigger club that is Manchester United, and yet, you think the manager is clueless?

In what world do you live to even say that about Ole when you think VdB should play as a 6 or a 8?

For Sancho, Greenwood, Martial, Rashford:

Martial: repositioned as a 9 with physical attribute to play a false 9 role.
He clearly improves our game, as seen in the games where he is not present.
Improved massively the scoring ability under Ole as per last year stats.

Rashford: LCF, he does have to improve his positioning to allow for overlap and underlap of the full back but he has improved massively the scoring ability under Ole.

Greenwood: fantastic slot in where Ole took 16 games to promote him to first role, gave him the #11, he still has a lot to improve but they are building his game, and yet, you think Ole doesn't know how to deal with him.

In light of the above, Ole would have dealt with Sancho perfectly. Let me emphasize again the word, perfectly. It's clear he knows how to promote players into the team and improve them by providing clear structural guidance. I have shared numerous time that structurally, we are built to be able to counter press and attack. Our individual mistakes should not hide that fact. It also means that when we will reduce those individual mistakes, the system is very clear and effective, as proven by our big wins.

 

[Glorio]

Don't start me on the money bit. No club has 40 million to waste and just treat it like its 40 pounds change from buying a replica shirt in a club shop.

To suggest 40 million is nothing is simply a symptom of the football fan of today. We couldn't sell Smalling to Roma on the cheap, refused to sell Romero on the cheap and refused to pay Dortmund 120 million for Sancho and you get people saying 40 million is nothing. That is an argument of a spoilt fan who thinks all this is football manager.

Secondly, Van De Beek is a player who is intelligent enough to play different positions. He is not a limited specialist footballer and that's what sets him apart.

If Van De Beek could not play where Mata, McTominnay and James were playing then he is of no use here. My point is that in all those 3 positions Van De Beek is a better player.

If Ole is struggling to play Van De Beek, how would he have fitted in Sancho among Greenwood, Martial and Rashford? To me he is a simpleton of a manager and hopefully this is his last season here. He is one dimensional and that is not good enough for Manchester United.

He is not struggling the play Van De Beek, he's putting the teams he believes can get us results on the pitch while Van De Beek for now is a good option to come off the bench. Simple really.
We wanted options, now we have them, we're moaning.

At some point Donny may force his way into the regular starting 11 and someone else will be on the bench. It won't be about Ole struggling to play whoever that might be.

Also what from your comfy armchair suggests to you that you know enough about the professional game to make better decisions than this "clueless one"?

 

[Stretender]

This is incredible!!!

I'll just post this since you have such a difficult time to figure out what's going on.
But sure, Ole is the clueless one...

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Since you might be lazy, let me copy a bit of this thread to make you understand how the player and Ole feel about what you just said above.

Donny in his 1st interview abt what Ole told him: "He said he knew exactly what my biggest strengths are & told me that he wants me to be in & around the 16 yard box at Man United too." 'Being in and around the 16 yard box' - Donny signed bcs he wanted to play up the field

Ole: "His ability to see space, time his movements & read the game will really complement the qualities that we've in midfield. His arrival really strengthens the depth of talent we have in that position" Keyword: 'depth'

Now you're thinking "but VDB won't be ok with this!" VDB: “I'll start at zero again at ManUtd. That might seem sad, but I love it. If you start down the ladder you can begin to climb up again. It’s now up to me to see how high I can reach. I see this as a challenge.” Mentality!

So both the player and Ole want to play in the box, yet, you think he should be played as a 6 or a 8? Why? Do you think he will accept it?
And also, both the player, and Ole, love the idea of fighting for competition and succeed in a much bigger club that is Manchester United, and yet, you think the manager is clueless?

In what world do you live to even say that about Ole when you think VdB should play as a 6 or a 8?

For Sancho, Greenwood, Martial, Rashford:

Martial: repositioned as a 9 with physical attribute to play a false 9 role.
He clearly improves our game, as seen in the games where he is not present.
Improved massively the scoring ability under Ole as per last year stats.

Rashford: LCF, he does have to improve his positioning to allow for overlap and underlap of the full back but he has improved massively the scoring ability under Ole.

Greenwood: fantastic slot in where Ole took 16 games to promote him to first role, gave him the #11, he still has a lot to improve but they are building his game, and yet, you think Ole doesn't know how to deal with him.

In light of the above, Ole would have dealt with Sancho perfectly. Let me emphasize again the word, perfectly. It's clear he knows how to promote players into the team and improve them by providing clear structural guidance. I have shared numerous time that structurally, we are built to be able to counter press and attack. Our individual mistakes should not hide that fact. It also means that when we will reduce those individual mistakes, the system is very clear and effective, as proven by our big wins.

Pointless response. I read your first line and stopped there.

I don't rate Ole the manager and never will.

Tactically poor , lost 3 semifinals without learning a single lesson from any one of them. Even Arteta who I think is not great either, won an FA Cup.

It's really delusional to think Ole has got any nous really of managing a big club.

 

[#07]

I am baffled by the 'controversy' about Van de Beek. How many times has Hakim Ziyech started for Chelsea in the Premier League?

Two players who were starters for Ajax, one goes to Man Utd the other to Chelsea. Neither have started a league game for their new clubs. However, for Van de Beek its seen as a HUGE thing. Whereas for Ziyech its barely discussed.

That's the English media for you. Add the name of Man Utd to your story and the clicks will follow.

 

[RUCK4444]

I am baffled by the 'controversy' about Van de Beek. How many times has Hakim Ziyech started for Chelsea in the Premier League?

Two players who were starters for Ajax, one goes to Man Utd the other to Chelsea. Neither have started a league game for their new clubs. However, for Van de Beek its seen as a HUGE thing. Whereas for Ziyech its barely discussed.

That's the English media for you. Add the name of Man Utd to your story and the clicks will follow.

This. It's nothing other than the 'Manchester United' affect, whereby anything and everything related to the club is blown out of all proportion and turned into a stick to beat the club and manager with.

We are only a few games in, he's a no 10, our current no 10 is our best player by a distance and pivotal for us in most games. He's a rotation option, bought to help avoid the squad falling off a cliff with fatigue like we did at the end of last season.

 

[RUCK4444]

Exactly that's where most people are missing the point. Van De Beek is not a player limited to one position.

He is an intelligent player and I can name 6 players in this first 11 who are not better than Van De Beek.

If Ole the clueless one can not find space for Van De Beek in this poor United team, how do people think he would have dealt with Sancho, Greenwood, Martial and Rashford?

Woodward was probably right in not signing Sancho because the clueless one would have struggled to fit him in.

Your having a mare on this thread mate. Must be said.

It's an absolute non issue. He's a number 10. Is he better than Bruno? No. Is he a very good rotation option for us through the season? Yes.

He's not going to be played on the feckin wing instead of Dan James is he ffs. He's not going to be played as a holding midfielder either, because he isn't one.

He will be played in the position he was bought for.

 

[brzez]

Maybe but Ajax is as good as us at least now.

I have considered creating an account here but never did, but your post is among the dumbest things I’ve read here, so I had to. Ludicrous statement.

 

[MadDogg]

Pointless response. I read your first line and stopped there.

I don't rate Ole the manager and never will.

Tactically poor , lost 3 semifinals without learning a single lesson from any one of them. Even Arteta who I think is not great either, won an FA Cup.

It's really delusional to think Ole has got any nous really of managing a big club.

And this response says everything we need to know about you as a poster.

 

[Roboc7]

We don’t have a set way of playing and it’s going to continue changing constantly. We started the season playing with two attacking midfielders so having a third for cover made sense, now we have two defensive players so it doesn’t.

At some point VDB will get games and at some point he won’t be playing, I think that will be same for all of the midfielders other than Bruno as Ole doesn’t really know how he wants to play or if he does how to make it work.

 

[Maticmaker]

Always assumed Donny was to replace the Jesse Lingard /Andreas Pereira role, so he slots into their perceived positions (although only Pereira gone so far!)

A bit expensive, for what is a support player, but if he is to become as good as VDS claims he will be in the future, he will cheap at half the price, lets hope Edwin's right!

Also there are some comments that all ex-Ajax players, especially those brought up through the club, have difficulty settling down at a new club and adapting to a new regime .

 

[RUCK4444]

And this response says everything we need to know about you as a poster.

Absolutely.

 

[MrBest]

Although im outstanded James got the nod ahead of DVB, even Mctominay, for the Chelsea game, i get the fact it is a long season. Perhaps Ole is waiting for him to integrate within the team, Klopp and Pep are both notorious for this with certain players. I believe that in 6 months time, DVB will be a instrumental player for us. His footballing brain is something we having been crying out for and him alongside Bruno can potentially be lethal as they both give 110% on the pitch, think quick and are both leaders. I cannot wait to see more of him and hopefully he gets his first start tomorrow.

 

[rotherham_red]

Bit weird how he's not really getting a sniff given the tactical flexibility he provides.

Why's he not getting playing time?

Acclimatization issues? Not impressing in training? Long term plan to slot him in? Rotation option?

There was some talk on here of the player being a Woodward signing and not an Ole one. Nothing to think much of from the outset, I'd say, but the games are coming thick and fast now and Van de Beek is proving to be our last option, which is a surprise, or is it?

It's a storm in a teacup and the media being mischievous. Teams do ease new players in and VdB isn't the first player who has had to deal with it. We did it with Herrera and Mkhitaryan. City have done it with Bernardo, Sane and Mahrez. And Liverpool did it with Fabinho.

None of those situations caused any angst in the media and amongst their fanbases, but with us it's like its WW3. It doesn't make sense. Right at the outset of him signing we had idiots saying he wasn't needed, many of whom were the same idiots who said we needed depth in the squad a few weeks before when we got knocked out by Sevilla.

 

[Stretender]

Your having a mare on this thread mate. Must be said.

It's an absolute non issue. He's a number 10. Is he better than Bruno? No. Is he a very good rotation option for us through the season? Yes.

He's not going to be played on the feckin wing instead of Dan James is he ffs. He's not going to be played as a holding midfielder either, because he isn't one.

He will be played in the position he was bought for.

Having a mare for what? I have put my points accross whether you agree with it or not is not my problem.

Which position was Pogba bought for? Does he play in that position all the time?

I can tell you I don't know which position Pogba was bought for but he plays mostly for United.

I don't have to repeat myself but Van De Beek will be better for the team in the positions played by McTominnay, Mata and James.

If you seriously think those 3 are better than Van De Beek, just stop watching football.

 

[romufc]

In what world do you live to even say that about Ole when you think VdB should play as a 6 or a 8?

Great post, shows that neither Donny or Ole would be worried about him starting, its all fan pressure and some fans thinking they know a player better than the manager and trying to play a player against his strengths on the wing.

Ole has shown, he can introduce players into teams well.

Pointless response. I read your first line and stopped there.

I don't rate Ole the manager and never will.

Tactically poor , lost 3 semifinals without learning a single lesson from any one of them. Even Arteta who I think is not great either, won an FA Cup.

It's really delusional to think Ole has got any nous really of managing a big club.

This literally shows a total lack of footballing knowledge. It is fans like these who see nothing other than Ole out that are part of the problem at the football club.

I get it, you do not like the manager, support the team properly at least. It is clear that you want us to fail just so you can say "I knew he is a shit manager".