We are an awfully coached team

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In every job I ever had, there was a definite, undesirable consequence in the event of sustained poor performance. It usually included loss of remuneration in the form of reduced or removal of performance-related annual bonus, which made up a big chunk of total earnings.
For our players, I can't see the equivalent consequences. Frequent poor displays or obvious lack of effort and hunger to win don't appear to result in any obvious sanction. This doesn't seem logical or healthy to me.
A prolonged spell on the bench is a rare event for most of our supposed big players even though it is often obviously appropriate to push them to try harder and raise their game.
Maybe part of the cause of our malaise is that we pay very high wages which losses don't seem to dent significantly. Maybe our players are too comfortable and this diminishes their hunger? If we paid a weekly wage of £25000 and a bonus of £1,000,000 per goal scored, would we see a better goals for column? Probably.
Our coaching is one aspect of what makes a player and team successful. Individual performance is the product of the combination of skills, knowledge and attitude. It feels to me like our biggest issue is under the attitude heading.
You point is highlighted in full that Shaw began to run more since the acquisition of Telles. This is independent of the fact that Shaw could run to the moon and back and still wouldn't be a footballer. He runs to the opposition 18 yard stop and passes back to the half line about 30 times every match.
 

Dominos

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We have been the best coached under LVG
We had a clear pattern of play and every player had a job and knew what job it was. Should of not been sacked after winning the FA cup.
Disagree about LVG. We were a very well coached team. We played totally boring football with him though.
Disagree with LVG. He atleast had a plan boring or not.
Whilst you could see the work he did in training had an effect in how we played, his plan was to pass the ball from side to side and never actually try to create a chance, never try a penetrative pass. Tonight's performance could have been an LVG game to be honest (maybe minus the leaving Demba Ba 1v1 with our keeper).

LVG's system we saw could only ever work with the absolute best of the best attacking players bailing him out every game with individual brilliance.
 

UbicaMekogSrca

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I genuinely worry about us in terms of coaching. Sometimes we can seem like a really well drilled team, defending like demons and tearing teams apart going forward. Then the next week we’ll defend like that and look lethargic in the final third. Some of the errors we make are just unreal at times, it baffles me how we can vary so wildly. How are we making such basic defensive mistakes one week, and pocketing Mbappe and Neymar the next?
I think players rise the game. It is about their ego. I will pocket Neymar tonight and be the king for few days... But that same player cant find motivation without coaching for some no name player. It is all about coaching and motivation.
 

dpansheth

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Someone mentioned this on the match day thread, I finally watched Leeds ( the full game ) last weekend, and they lost but the team had a style, a pattern, every piece was aware what their RnRs are. After changing 4 managers I fail to see a style. And no, I dont think its only down to the pieces ( players ) available etc. Its the choice of manager + backroom staff ( and I am not sparing woodward or judge of any blame in this mess but that's for a different thread )
 

Foxbatt

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Someone mentioned this on the match day thread, I finally watched Leeds ( the full game ) last weekend, and they lost but the team had a style, a pattern, every piece was aware what their RnRs are. After changing 4 managers I fail to see a style. And no, I dont think its only down to the pieces ( players ) available etc. Its the choice of manager + backroom staff ( and I am not sparing woodward or judge of any blame in this mess but that's for a different thread )
yes and they would have won with the players we have at United. They simply did not have the individual players with any quality. What we do is when our playes get the ball the only attacking intent they have is put their head down and try to sprint with the ball. Or else pass it slowly side to side. Just like Carrick used to do when he played.
 

pocco

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This is such a conflicting point, because quite frankly none of us know where the line is blurred between (a) how well this team are coached and (b) how much these players are actually 'coachable'.

I'm an Ole fan. I think hes done a very decent job in difficult circumstances, but its important to try to be impartial. I find it nearly impossible to be concisive about this point though, and there is one simple reason why - at times we look like a marvellously coached football team. On other occasions we look like 11 players that just met for the first time in the car park. It makes absolutely no sense.

Its not coaching that leaves Demba Ba with 60 yards of pitch to himself. Its not coaching that tells Pogba to make an insane tackle on a player going away from goal, and its not coaching that caused the avalanche of ridiculous mistakes that occurred against Spurs. Nobody would coach that stuff. These are BASICS, and these are high level professionals making these basic mistakes.

Its complacency.

It would seem that Ole has so far failed to stamp out whatever it is that is going on behind the scenes that causes our team to be so wildly inconsistent. To fail to take the same attitude we display when we play well and win games into the next game. To fail to communicate with each other on the pitch.

I dont believe that our problems are anything to do with coaching, and im far from convinced that changing the manager will solve these issues, but i now fear that this change is coming and these players will be let off the hook. We will go through the same boom-bust cycle all over again, in search of solutions to a problem that we don't seem to understand.
We look marvellously coached when our one tactic plays out well, which is when teams come to attack and leave acres of space in behind.

And regarding the points about mistakes, Demba Ba is free because of our shape on a set piece. That's on the manager/coaches.

Pogba gives the penalty away against Arsenal because he's covering an area of the pitch that we've already established he is rubbish in. That's partly on the manager and on Pogba.

The Spurs game, Jose saw what we were doing and exploited our tactics completely. For example, he saw that Shaw had been asked to man mark Lamela wherever he went, often finding him in the middle of the pitch with Maguire trying to cover his side from overlaps. I watched on TV and questioned it numerous times before it was completely exploited. This and the many other issues that were exploited were also on the manager.
 

passing-wind

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There's a video somewhere on YouTube showing the staff of City coaching what seems to be a five-a-side team. The impetus that was expressed in the video was to get them to form shapes and positions to orchestrate patterns of play which the players would routinely do accelerating the process for them to instinctively play the instructions in a real life game through the methodology of muscle memory.

When you consider the lengths the city management explored to better some random players for a non-competitive competition, consider our own team and you'll just see a portrayal of what can only be described as utter foolishness offered by Solskjaer, Carrick, Mckenna and Phelan. These guys might be able to implement the culture of the club but if they can't tactically accommodate this team to be useful aside counter attacking there's absolutely no hope for the future under their leadership.

Right now we are a team with 800 break horsepower, spinning the wheels at every available RPM making the vehicle completely immobile for basic use. All that power and nowhere to put it points to a mechanical flaw design and the mechanics of a team always stems from the management. We can't keep moaning at the players when they are purchased and end up underperforming under useless managers who acquired them. It's becoming a trend and the common denominator amoungst it all is a lack of DOF to compound the interest of both the long term aspects of the clubs success and appeasing the managerial side of things.
 
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Red Pavan

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I was more angry about the fact that even after such goal, we kept on leaving ton of spaces for them to counter and lump the ball in!

Like what the feck ? How stupid are we as a team ? It was clear as day all their strategy is to go on counter and lump the ball to their striker in space. Instead of learning from this we kept on playing with very high line up and giving them ton of space as if we don't care. Second goal was bound to happen.

Our lack of IQ and intelligence on the pitch is ridiculous. We're a stupid team, plain and simple.
This comes from the coaching staff doesn't it. It is up to them to build a well drilled unit and ironing out mistakes on the training pitch, which at the moment is not happening and something has to give.
 

Asger

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We have some great players who will occasionally spark some great play, but while things stand as they are we will never be consistent, there is just no style of play. Hate it but Ole is not the guy.
Who are those great players? I only see average and inconsistent talented players, some have even been talented for years!
 

Greck

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This comes from the coaching staff doesn't it. It is up to them to build a well drilled unit and ironing out mistakes on the training pitch, which at the moment is not happening and something has to give.
When you're chasing a goal you're typically going to push the line up. There was nothing actually wrong with that. The problem was we were committing bodies without the slightest regard to tactical organisation. Either the players were specifically instructed to do so or they were given the freedom to decide where they wanted to be and they all chose to be close to the attack. Almost like the only instructions these players are being given is to attack in numbers. Neither one reflects well on the coaches.

This has actually been a problem every game we've pushed up high this season. We're giving up and ungodly amount of space and have looked defensively exposed when the other team has broken. Brighton had the same kind of space against us. Problem is we have no tactical continuity to start addressing it. By the next game we'll be playing a deep line
 

Asger

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Ole has done pretty well bringing in players who suit the team in the long run, bar Dan James. It’s time to go though and bring someone in who knows his tactics, Ole is clueless in too many games. The defending in the first goal was inexcusable, even by sunday league standards.
C'mon, that's happened with basically every single football team when something is clearly wrong at management level.
Then fine all players for weeks. People in normal job can’t jus

How are AWB and Maguire good for the long run?
 

Snuffkin

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How are AWB and Maguire good for the long run?
Am beginning to agree on Maguire he seems to have turned into a Sunday league player but I don't think that's down to the coaching.
 

steffyr2

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It could be just a coincidence, but we have the same players who also didn't play well under the last 3 managers. Nah, what am I thinking?
 

Asger

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Am beginning to agree on Maguire he seems to have turned into a Sunday league player but I don't think that's down to the coaching.
Leicester defence has been much more solid without him. Two times 9th place Leicester centre back for 80m.. HOW?
 

Greck

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It could be just a coincidence, but we have the same players who also didn't play well under the last 3 managers. Nah, what am I thinking?
Myth, the starting lineup under Jose was Lukaku-Sanchez/Rashford-Lingard-Pogba-Matic-Fellaini-Valencia-Young-Jones/Lindelof-smalling. The starters under LVG included Rooney-Martial-Depay-Schneiderlin-Rojo-Blind-Smalling-Young-Valencia. Most of these players have long left the club. I don't know why Keane keeps saying this was the same team that let Jose down. He needs to calm down with his testosterone rage and use his sense of reasoning every now and then
 

Foxbatt

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Set pieces are well set drills. That is why signals are given before a set piece. It is very well to take a short corner if everyone is on the same page. AWB was back tracking to his normal position for corners when he got dragged in by Bruno to the action. He did not know what was happening behind him and he should have passed the ball to either Bruno or Mata or even Matic and then get back to his position. Which is the last man in defence.
I do not think the coaches even thought about the absurdity of the situation and thought that players at this level should have the brain to handle this kind of issue. The fact that no other player warned Matic about Demba Ba is also puzzling.
AWB's position and job is not to put in crosses from a short corner. His job is the last man in defence.
 

pratyush_utd

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Set pieces are well set drills. That is why signals are given before a set piece. It is very well to take a short corner if everyone is on the same page. AWB was back tracking to his normal position for corners when he got dragged in by Bruno to the action. He did not know what was happening behind him and he should have passed the ball to either Bruno or Mata or even Matic and then get back to his position. Which is the last man in defence.
I do not think the coaches even thought about the absurdity of the situation and thought that players at this level should have the brain to handle this kind of issue. The fact that no other player warned Matic about Demba Ba is also puzzling.
AWB's position and job is not to put in crosses from a short corner. His job is the last man in defence.
Shaw went up for the corner. Alongwith entire defence. None of the back four bothered to look back and see who was defending in case we are hit with counter attack. Matic was in his position. Shaw wasn't on left side. Not one of other 3 midfielder sensed the danger. Complete utter failure and should never happen in elite level of football. No amount of coaching or manager can do anything about it if your entire team is not bothered about playing football
 

Greck

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Shaw went up for the corner. Alongwith entire defence. None of the back four bothered to look back and see who was defending in case we are hit with counter attack. Matic was in his position. Shaw wasn't on left side. Not one of other 3 midfielder sensed the danger. Complete utter failure and should never happen in elite level of football. No amount of coaching or manager can do anything about it if your entire team is not bothered about playing football
On the contrary that's exactly what coaching preparation is supposed to fix so we don't have a situation where either CB or CM goes up for the corner thinking their partner will stay back. We just had a situation where everyone likely pushed forward thinking the back was secure. They can't read each other's minds so the coach defines and decides on organisational shape in various tactical situations well before matchday

I'm surprised people are saying a situation that is the very definition of coaching oversight has nothing to do with coaching. Why even have a manager then if the players also have to decide the organisational shape on set pieces
 
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pratyush_utd

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On the contrary that's exactly what coaching preparation is supposed to fix so we don't have a situation where either CB or CM goes up for the corner thinking their partner will stay back. We just had a situation where everyone likely pushed forward thinking the back was secure. They can't read each other's minds so the coach defines and decides on organisational shape in various tactical situations well before matchday

I'm surprised people are saying a situation that is the very definition of coaching oversight has nothing to do with coaching. Why even have a manager then if the players also have to decide the organisational shape on set pieces
That's not the point i was making. This is like football 101. Schoolboys follow this on corner kicks. Do you really think we need coaching and management set up for telling our defenders their responsibility. If you look at all the corners we defend, its always the base CM and depending on side, one of our FB is covering for the CB. So obviously management team has a shape in mind while attacking corners. There is nothing Ole or any manager in the world will be able to do if our players just abandon the instructions and start playing freestyle football.
 

thepolice123

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That's not the point i was making. This is like football 101. Schoolboys follow this on corner kicks. Do you really think we need coaching and management set up for telling our defenders their responsibility. If you look at all the corners we defend, its always the base CM and depending on side, one of our FB is covering for the CB. So obviously management team has a shape in mind while attacking corners. There is nothing Ole or any manager in the world will be able to do if our players just abandon the instructions and start playing freestyle football.
Spurs exposed us with similar long balls over the top. We kept getting caught with Matic (our slowest player) as the last man trying to catch their forward.

Look at the video is it the exact same scenario of the opposition attacking the space behind Matic after we overcommited players on the front. There are some serious structural problems in the team because there is no way a top team would allow itself to be exposed in such situations.

 

TMDaines

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On BT Sport tonight directly after the match, I’m paraphrasing:

Lynsey Hipgrave: Did you see any clear strategy from Manchester United tonight?

Owen Hargreaves: I thought they were more defensively vulnerable.
 

UnitedSofa

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I think it’s seen most obviously in how Fernandes has regressed since being “coached” at United.
Fernandes having a bad run of form and suddenly he’s “regressed”

This place will take anything to hit Ole and the club with.........
 

The Plump Poet

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Yes, we are.

No plan, no pattern or no style. Just a bunch of 11 individuals on the ground trying to do something.

Bringing a right back who can attack because our 50m signing attack. Playing Bruno deep , Rashford right, Cavani left.

Seriously WTF is happening?
Interesting. Given that you are obviously knowledgable on coaching and have clearly been watching their training sessions for a long time, I would love to know what specific coaching drills you would implement for which individuals and groups, and for what specific reasons?
 

Bestietom

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Yes, we are.

No plan, no pattern or no style. Just a bunch of 11 individuals on the ground trying to do something.

Bringing a right back who can attack because our 50m signing attack. Playing Bruno deep , Rashford right, Cavani left.

Seriously WTF is happening?
Agree. No pattern to our play. Pick 11 and tell them to just go out and play will never work. Love you Ole but time we got a TOP manager/coach.
 

Bilbo

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Someone mentioned this on the match day thread, I finally watched Leeds ( the full game ) last weekend, and they lost but the team had a style, a pattern, every piece was aware what their RnRs are
No offense, but if it took you one game to identify the patterns of play of Leeds United, how long do you think it will take for PL level coaches to figure out the best way to play against it?
 

Murray3007

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McKenna and Carrick need to be learning from an experienced manager with an assistant manager who is forward thinking, not someone who is 12 years out of date.
for me they both need to go, we need complete change in the manager, ass man, and all coaches,
 

Murray3007

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Maybe as you say we need a complete clean break.
has to be for me, were both not part of LVG as well or did they both come with Jose? that's a lot of failed times now, think players need change as listening to the same eventually gets boring, SAF changed his Ass manager and coaches quite a bit.
 

Fortitude

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McKenna and Carrick need to be learning from an experienced manager with an assistant manager who is forward thinking, not someone who is 12 years out of date.
Succinct and correct.

Even if we are trying to play 'old school' we are not doing that well, either. We're antiquated in our ideas and methods, but worse still, have applied no kind of structure for these players to work within the confines of other than go out there and pray something will happen if we're not set up to counter an attacking team.

We can neither play progressive football nor do we have an idea of how to work any kind of complex waves of attack. Not one. That's unacceptable.
 

RUCK4444

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Fernandes having a bad run of form and suddenly he’s “regressed”

This place will take anything to hit Ole and the club with.........
So feckin boring isn’t it.

Like Ole is telling him ‘listen Bruno, go out there and misplace passes all over the shop, provide the opposition with chances to counterattack’
 

Infra-red

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So you genuinely can’t see a difference in him since he joined to how he is now?
Fernandes is the same as every other new joiner - they look alright when they arrive and then Ole and the coaching staff get into them and their good form crumbles into dust (see AWB, Maguire and James, too).

VdB has generally looked quite good, but he'll be stinking the place up by Christmas.
 

Bilbo

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Fernandes is the same as every other new joiner - they look alright when they arrive and then Ole and the coaching staff get into them and their good form crumbles into dust (see AWB, Maguire and James, too).

VdB has generally looked quite good, but he'll be stinking the place up by Christmas.
Fernandes is the same as every other player not called Messi or Ronaldo. He'll go through good patches of form, and some patches where its not quite going for him. His early form for us was always going to be unsustainable. People need to watch other teams play on a regular basis. All of their key players have periods where they are less effective. This whole 'wait until our coaching staff get their hands on them' line is based on nothing but agenda.
 

UnitedSofa

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So you genuinely can’t see a difference in him since he joined to how he is now?
Yes it’s called a bad run of form.

So feckin boring isn’t it.

Like Ole is telling him ‘listen Bruno, go out there and misplace passes all over the shop, provide the opposition with chances to counterattack’
Bruno is well known for misplacing passes and was one of the disadvantages to his game that many people pointed out befote he arrived.

Not like he’s suddenly turned crap it’s simply a bad run of form
 

Lee565

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You have arteta and Lampard who have barely began their managing careers and yet been able to create a clear identity of what they are trying to do and then you have ole who people seem to keep forgetting has been managing for about 10 years and still he has no clear vision or identity for our team.
 

Oranges038

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I'd hate to see him get the sack. Although ,last night the players looked more like they couldn't be bothered than badly coached.

But, I think one of Ole's biggest failings is in the coaching staff. Carrick, Mckenna and a couple of mates from his time in Norway.

I very much doubt Ole is out running every drill and session, these guys have to take some of the flack.