Marco Rose | OFFICIAL: Joining Dortmund at the end of the season

Champ

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That's true aswell and in the second half he turned the tables on Bayern and won the tactical battle by occupying the half spaces which affected Bayern build up from the first phase of the build up.
Yup, eradicated his original tactical error and got a wee bit fortunate.
What Ole should have done against Arsenal!!
 

Adnan

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Yup, eradicated his original tactical error and got a wee bit fortunate.
What Ole should have done against Arsenal!!
Rose was up against the best team in Europe so it's understandable he would struggle against them due to the superior quality of player Bayern had.
 

Champ

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Rose was up against the best team in Europe so it's understandable he would struggle against them due to the superior quality of player Bayern had.
Not really, considering when he changed tactics Gladbach looked the better side.
 

Adnan

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Not really, considering when he changed tactics Gladbach looked the better side.
He changed strategy after Bayern had made it extremely difficult for his team to transition play from the back. So him struggling in the first half against a superior team wasn't a surprise.

I've even written a lengthy post on how his tactical switch in the second half whereby he closed off the half spaces very intelligently greatly helped him come back into the contest and disrupt Bayern's high press.
 

Cee90

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Get him on a plane to Manchester now.
 

Champ

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He changed strategy after Bayern had made it extremely difficult for his team to transition play from the back. So him struggling in the first half against a superior team wasn't a surprise.

I've even written a lengthy post on how his tactical switch in the second half whereby he closed off the half spaces very intelligently greatly helped him come back into the contest and disrupt Bayern's high press.
What I'm trying to say is they weren't an inferior team playing the switched tactics in the second half, it was Roses error of judgement that led to them being so inferior.
 

brzez

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What if we tried getting Rose as head coach and Nagelsmann and Pochettino as assistants? And Ole as a DOF and a assistant in our fixtures v top 6.

buhu
 

redMundo

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Any Bundesliga experts on here? Is he better than Nagelsmann?
What are the similarities/differences between the two?
For the record I rate both but haven’t extensively researched either’s careers
 

Adnan

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What I'm trying to say is they weren't an inferior team playing the switched tactics in the second half, it was Roses error of judgement that led to them being so inferior.
It's easy to say it was a error of judgement when the team you're up against is arguably the best in Europe and has far better players.

Rose was wanting to transition play from the back which his team wasn't good enough to do against Bayern's high press who subsequently cut off the passing lanes and were suffocating Gladbach. Which is not a surprise because Bayern have better players. So he made a systematic change in the second half where he realised his team wasn't gonna break the Bayern press so he deployed his forwards in the half spaces which disrupted the Bayern press.

It's easy to say it was a error in hindsight but him asking his team to play out from the back was normal. And every up and coming coach needs to face difficulties like that and find solutions which is what shapes them in the long run.
 

Bastian

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Get him on a plane to Manchester now.
I think it's realistic to get him in before next season.

The only realistic candidates now would be Poch or Allegri. I'd personally much rather see Ole finish out the season (or an interim if he ends up losing the dressing room, which I'm not expecting) and have a new manager wrapped up for next season with the club using the next few months to prepare for him.
 

Champ

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It's easy to say it was a error of judgement when the team you're up against is arguably the best in Europe and has far better players.

Rose was wanting to transition play from the back which his team wasn't good enough to do against Bayern's high press who subsequently cut off the passing lanes and were suffocating Gladbach. Which is not a surprise because Bayern have better players. So he made a systematic change in the second half where he realised his team wasn't gonna break the Bayern press so he deployed his forwards in the half spaces which disrupted the Bayern press.

It's easy to say it was a error in hindsight but him asking his team to play out from the back was normal. And every up and coming coach needs to face difficulties like that and find solutions which is what shapes them in the long run.
It was an error of judgement, a mistake, hence the reason he changed it.
That points to good management that he changed it with enough time to get something out of the game, something that Ole didn't do at all against Arsenal, or the latest debacle!

I wouldn't have thought Rose would have gone into that game thinking 'Bayern have better players than me' otherwise I would question his mentality.
The simple fact of that game is Munich were the better team due to poor tactical setup, they were then made to look ordinary by a tactical tweak,

Football is a game of 11 v 11. Games can be won by tactics and a bit of fortune (as this game we are discussing highlights), actually having the 'better' players doesn't always translate to winning all the time, so I get what you are saying but history has shown time and time again a team can become the greater sum of its parts by resolute tactical nous, work ethic and a bit of luck. But I digress.

In short, it was both poor management and good management in one game!!
 

Adnan

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It was an error of judgement, a mistake, hence the reason he changed it.
That points to good management that he changed it with enough time to get something out of the game, something that Ole didn't do at all against Arsenal, or the latest debacle!

I wouldn't have thought Rose would have gone into that game thinking 'Bayern have better players than me' otherwise I would question his mentality.
The simple fact of that game is Munich were the better team due to poor tactical setup, they were then made to look ordinary by a tactical tweak,

Football is a game of 11 v 11. Games can be won by tactics and a bit of fortune (as this game we are discussing highlights), actually having the 'better' players doesn't always translate to winning all the time, so I get what you are saying but history has shown time and time again a team can become the greater sum of its parts by resolute tactical nous, work ethic and a bit of luck. But I digress.

In short, it was both poor management and good management in one game!!
What was Rose's mistake? Can you elaborate and explain in detail of possible..
 

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What was Rose's mistake? Can you elaborate and explain in detail of possible..
I have not seen that match, but I am bit confused by your point here. This is what you said just before:

"Rose was wanting to transition play from the back which his team wasn't good enough to do against Bayern's high press who subsequently cut off the passing lanes and were suffocating Gladbach. Which is not a surprise because Bayern have better players. So he made a systematic change in the second half where he realised his team wasn't gonna break the Bayern press so he deployed his forwards in the half spaces which disrupted the Bayern press."

If it wasn't a surprise (as you literally say yourself) that Rose's first half approach did not work, then why do you insist that his choice for that initial approach was not an error of judgement?
 

Adnan

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I have not seen that match, but I am bit confused by your point here. This is what you said just before:

"Rose was wanting to transition play from the back which his team wasn't good enough to do against Bayern's high press who subsequently cut off the passing lanes and were suffocating Gladbach. Which is not a surprise because Bayern have better players. So he made a systematic change in the second half where he realised his team wasn't gonna break the Bayern press so he deployed his forwards in the half spaces which disrupted the Bayern press."

If it wasn't a surprise (as you literally say yourself) that Rose's first half approach did not work, then why do you insist that his choice for that initial approach was not an error of judgement?
Because Rose has to know how far he can push his players in his first season at the club. Before trying plan B he has to see how his players respond to plan A.
 

Cheimoon

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Because Rose has to know how far he can push his players in his first season at the club. Before trying plan B he has to see how his players respond to plan A.
OK, so I guess it's a matter of perspective. If you value results first, Rose made an error; if you value the long-term trajectory, Rose got it right - or something along those lines.

Of course, going for the second-half approach would also have opened Rose up to criticism. If Gladbach would have lost anyway, people would have criticized him for changing his approach and how it expresses a lack of trust in his players. It's always easier in hindsight.
 

Adnan

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OK, so I guess it's a matter of perspective. If you value results first, Rose made an error; if you value the long-term trajectory, Rose got it right - or something along those lines.

Of course, going for the second-half approach would also have opened Rose up to criticism. If Gladbach would have lost anyway, people would have criticized him for changing his approach and how it expresses a lack of trust in his players. It's always easier in hindsight.
He did value the result but was up against arguably the best team in Europe at the time so him facing difficulties in the game isn't a surprise. I fully expected Gladbach to have difficulties in the game.

And even if he had lost the game which many including myself expected due to the quality of opposition he was facing, I wouldn't criticise him.

Tactics/strategy can only take you so far but you still need the tools at your disposal to implement your style on the team. And if your tools are inferior to the opposition, then there will be problems. Everything isn't black and white.
 

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He did value the result but was up against arguably the best team in Europe at the time so him facing difficulties in the game isn't a surprise. I fully expected Gladbach to have difficulties in the game.

And even if he had lost the game which many including myself expected due to the quality of opposition he was facing, I wouldn't criticise him.

Tactics/strategy can only take you so far but you still need the tools at your disposal to implement your style on the team. And if your tools are inferior to the opposition, then there will be problems. Everything isn't black and white.
No of course, everyone agrees that you need the great players to be a truly great team. And any team can lose at any moment, football can be random like that. I am just struggling to understand why you think Rose cannot receive any criticism for adopting an approach that he could have known would not work (since you said that it was no surprise), while he could also have adopted his successful second-half approach right from the start.

Again, I did not see the match and I'm not here to shit on Rose; I am just struggling to follow your logic. Is it because, before the match, the first-half and second-half approaches would each have seemed equally unlikely to succeed? You just said that the result did matter, so the answer that he wanted to stick to his plan A to test his players against superior opposition doesn't sound right.
 

Adnan

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No of course, everyone agrees that you need the great players to be a truly great team. And any team can lose at any moment, football can be random like that. I am just struggling to understand why you think Rose cannot receive any criticism for adopting an approach that he could have known would not work (since you said that it was no surprise), while he could also have adopted his successful second-half approach right from the start.

Again, I did not see the match and I'm not here to shit on Rose; I am just struggling to follow your logic. Is it because, before the match, the first-half and second-half approaches would each have seemed equally unlikely to succeed? You just said that the result did matter, so the answer that he wanted to stick to his plan A to test his players against superior opposition doesn't sound right.
First of all I haven't said Rose can't receive criticism.

Gladbach under Rose is gonna play out from the back. So we have to give credit to Bayern for pressing high and cutting off the passing lanes which caused a issue for Gladbach in the first half. Remember we we're talking about arguably the best team in Europe here so no matter what happened, problems were expected to arise against a superior football team.

And even after all that, Gladbach went in at half time level with Bayern. And when he (Rose) changed it after the break they went a goal down and were chasing the game against superior opposition. So the tactical plan was gonna change by default anyway.
 

FrankDrebin

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Wasn't Rose reported to be on a list of candidates for the role of managing us a few months back ?
 

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First of all I haven't said Rose can't receive criticism.
I didn't mean criticism in general, just regarding this one decision for the approach in the first half.

Gladbach under Rose is gonna play out from the back. So we have to give credit to Bayern for pressing high and cutting off the passing lanes which caused a issue for Gladbach in the first half. Remember we we're talking about arguably the best team in Europe here so no matter what happened, problems were expected to arise against a superior football team.

And even after all that, Gladbach went in at half time level with Bayern. And when he (Rose) changed it after the break they went a goal down and were chasing the game against superior opposition. So the tactical plan was gonna change by default anyway.
So part of the issue was that Bayern countered Rose's strategy very well, which of course he can't plan for (or not much, anyway; you can never foretell which counter-measure will be used exactly). Fair enough, makes sense to me.
 

Adnan

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I didn't mean criticism in general, just regarding this one decision for the approach in the first half.


So part of the issue was that Bayern countered Rose's strategy very well, which of course he can't plan for (or not much, anyway; you can never foretell which counter-measure will be used exactly). Fair enough, makes sense to me.
Any strategy can be countered if you have the players IMO. And Bayern had the superior players and could've easily won the game too. It could've gone either way but I'm glad it went Rose's way because otherwise his intelligent tactical switch in the second half would've been forgotten about.
 

Adnan

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He's up against Leverkusen and Peter Bosz on the weekend which on paper is a tough game against a very good tactician in Peter Bosz. So it'll be a interesting game which could go either way.
 

do.ob

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Bayern were by far the best team in the world last season, Flick had just recently taken over and was a bit of an unknown entity and he made some adjustments to his starting lineup for the Gladbach fixture. Imo it's naive to just think you can judge Rose's performance from the outside like that. As a coach you can make choices that are perfectly reasonable in theory but don't end up working on the pitch, especially when your opposition is so much better in theory, they can just snuff you, even if you got most things right.
I think it's much better to just look at the bigger picture and I think in general Rose's team seems competitive against bigger teams, even if they lose quite a few of them. As expected.

He's up against Leverkusen and Peter Bosz on the weekend which on paper is a tough game against a very good tactician in Peter Bosz. So it'll be a interesting game which could go either way.
If we ignore fatigue (which we probably shouldn't, since it's a very real issue), Gladbach should be firm favourites. Bosz is coping better than expected, but the fact remains that his squad was gutted by selling Volland, Havertz and what little compensation they got is currently injured in Arias and Schick.
 
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Adnan

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Bayern were by far the best team in the world last season, Flick had just recently taken over and was a bit of an unknown entity and he made some adjustments to his starting lineup for the Gladbach fixture. Imo it's naive to just think you can judge Rose's performance from the outside like that. As a coach you can make choices that are perfectly reasonable in theory but don't end up working on the pitch, especially when your opposition is so much better in theory, they can just snuff you, even if you got most things right.
I think it's much better to just at the bigger picture and I think in general Rose's team seems competitive against bigger teams, even if they lose quite a few of them. As expected.



If we ignore fatigue (which we probably shouldn't, since it's a very real issue), Gladbach should be firm favourites. Bosz is coping better than expected, but the fact remains that his squad was gutted by selling Volland, Havertz and what little compensation they got is currently injured in Arias and Schick.
I don't want to get carried away mate so I'm being cautious.
 

dal

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German managers certainly doing well


Rose
Tuchel
Klopp
Nanglesman

:confused:
 

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I'm definitely not for Poch if there's a genuine possibility of a proper progressive coach like Rose coming here.

Put it this way: would endure this season with Ole or an interim if Rose was assured for the next.

We missed out on the last elite wave and should not do so again this time around. Rose's concepts would revitalise a club that has really lost its way. The filter effects should also go straight through to grassroots. We're in need of that. Badly.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I'm definitely not for Poch if there's a genuine possibility of a proper progressive coach like Rose coming here.

Put it this way: would endure this season with Ole or an interim if Rose was assured for the next.

We missed out on the last elite wave and should not do so again this time around. Rose's concepts would revitalise a club that has really lost its way. The filter effects should also go straight through to grassroots. We're in need of that. Badly.
Exactly this. You just know if Klopp leaves Liverpool they are going to get one of Rose Nagelsman or Hasenhüttl even if Poch was available
 

Adnan

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It's difficult to predict the future but for me he's the best option we can go for. The stand out candidate for me.
 

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Exactly this. You just know if Klopp leaves Liverpool they are going to get one of Rose Nagelsman or Hasenhüttl even if Poch was available
Yes, which is your Shankly<->Paisley shuffle and seamless transition.

We cannot keep making the same mistake over and over. It's time for a progressive coach and modern conceptualisation.
 

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The only thing that puts me off Rose is that he plays the diamond in midfield, or so i believe? Just a personal thing but I hate not having wingers/wide attacking players and I think any manager relying on our fullbacks to provide width will struggle.