They have Walcott as one of their main players, he has looked finished since his move from Arsenal to Everton 3 years ago. Ole did well yesterday and there was nothing much Hasenhuttl could do with the quality he had.
Ralph Hasenhüttl
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
i love that the comments in here are all about Southampton not having the quality all of a sudden
you lot and your hipster managers
you lot and your hipster managers
I honestly don't think it is. Look at their squad at an individual level and think of what you thought of their players pre Hasenhuttl (which is essentially when Ole came in for timeline), I honestly don't think a single player gets into the squad, let alone first team of United. The reason fans are now praising JWP, Romeu, Ings etc is because of the coach. We have a few Soton fans on here who can probably explain this in more depth but JWP, for example, was on the fringes under Hughes and I'm pretty sure he was playing RM but he's been transformed. Add in Southampton consistently losing their best players as far back as I can remember and it's really not that crazy an analogy. Ole unarguably has one of the best squads in the league, I'd argue Hasenhuttl has one of the worst and the thinnest (they were getting relegated when he took over and has hardly spent big since coming in) but his system is so good at getting as much as possible out of that group of players. It's not the prettiest system sometimes but it's functional, tries to be attacking and is generally (as it was against us) competitive against all teams.
The entire point as to why people recognize him as a good coach is precisely because Soton's team is so thin on quality.
Did not disappoint.No I've been rating Ward Prowse very high for a long time. Romeu is a cnut but he's a good mid and every teams would need a cnut on their side sometime, especially in a tough match. Both have been quality for Sou even before Hassehult.
You can read the first pages of the match thread to have an idea of the balance between two teams I think. Ole, to his credit has assembled a decent squad. But imo apart from Bruno is not much above PL quality. We definitely have a better squad than Sou, but not like a Lambo against a Ford. Even for Liverpool or City squad I wouldn't say so. Most PL teams are actually quite decent and the gap between top and middle teams are not big. That's why anyone could beat anybody on their day.
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So much for Hassenhuttl “raising the level of his players”.i love that the comments in here are all about Southampton not having the quality all of a sudden
you lot and your hipster managers
Even if you have rated JWP for years, you'd be the exception. Look at the thread here on him for example, it's three pages and was pretty much silent until 2017. And then it's mostly fans saying he's average or a FK merchant.
No matter what you think of United, the fact you don't think City or Liverpool's squad is vastly superior to this Soton side individually is baffling.
I don't see what the fuss is tbh. His Southampton team seems to rely on shithousery and kicking their opponents to pieces, along with the odd JWP set piece brilliance. It seems everytime Southampton get a relatively unknown manager that keeps them in the top half of the table, they get praised to the heavens by the footballing hipsters.
I like him and feel he has potential to succeed at a big club in the future. But over performing managers like him at mid table clubs have a lot of “freedom” which they won’t get at top clubs.
They can afford to play good football without the pressure of winning as many games as possible. When they concede while looking naive it’s ok because they are expected to be naive.
They play once per week and still manage to get exhausted in the 2nd half.
Some nice passing, pressing, incredible amount of fouling and set pieces from their team are enough to get them plaudits.
When they win it’s because of them. When they lose it’s because they don’t have good players.
They can lose 3-2 after leading 2-0 and still celebrate themselves because the other team is celebrating after their comeback.
At the end at big clubs results are the most important aspect. Performances matter but they won’t be remembered without the result.
United played well yesterday, but if the result had stayed 2-0 or even 2-1 to Southampton no one would be celebrating United’s performance.
As I said I like him but over performing with Southampton and succeeding at a big club are completely different challenges.
They can afford to play good football without the pressure of winning as many games as possible. When they concede while looking naive it’s ok because they are expected to be naive.
They play once per week and still manage to get exhausted in the 2nd half.
Some nice passing, pressing, incredible amount of fouling and set pieces from their team are enough to get them plaudits.
When they win it’s because of them. When they lose it’s because they don’t have good players.
They can lose 3-2 after leading 2-0 and still celebrate themselves because the other team is celebrating after their comeback.
At the end at big clubs results are the most important aspect. Performances matter but they won’t be remembered without the result.
United played well yesterday, but if the result had stayed 2-0 or even 2-1 to Southampton no one would be celebrating United’s performance.
As I said I like him but over performing with Southampton and succeeding at a big club are completely different challenges.
I don't know about others but for me Ward Prowse has been a very good mid for a long time. He usually doesn't stand out much or do the flashy stuffs but he's a very good hard working mid and his set pieces have always been quality. I wouldn't be surprised if Liverpool buy him soon. I rate him really high for example here:
And if the squad of Liverpool or City against Sou is like a Lambor and Ford then I would seriously doubt the talent of Klopp. Because last season I think I watched the Sou Liverpool match 1st half and they played Liverpool off the park. It was only because of luck, Sou being incredibly wasteful with their chances and a sheer moment of brilliance from Mane that Liverpool was be able to win.
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And his 'patterns of play'
Southampton FC are well-drilled, punching above their weight through a combination of sound governance and outstanding scouting.
Hasenhuettl is a great manager for them and will secure top 12 like every season.
Hasenhuettl is a great manager for them and will secure top 12 like every season.
You're right. Hassenhuttl doesn't raise the level of his players at all, does he.
Really? Just from the highlights in first half Walkers Peters hit the post from just outside the box with deflected shot and then they had terrific counter attack with Djenpo in loads of space which DDG parried and then Armstrong messed up the rebound from decent position.
Second half the attacks ceased, can only remember Adams hitting one just wide but it was all United at that point.
Southampton have scored 9 goals in last 5 games v Man. United so don't think there's a creativity issue. They've also gone to Chelsea and scored 3.
CB options mediocre though, Vestegaard, Stephens, Bednarak. Break through their lines quickly and there will be lax marking in the box.
Lots of good attacking moves v Newcastle in their last home game.
Also played very well in final third in games before v us and Everton.
It didn't look like it yesterday
Yes, lets judge managers on isolated games. That makes a world of sense.It didn't look like it yesterday
Southampton created very little against us yesterday, surely you are not debating that?
Do you watch Southampton? This is a genuine question
They scored twice, hit the post and DDG made decent if regulation save from counter attack all in first 45 minutes. I would say that's a decent outlay from 45 minutes against a probable top 6 opponent.
Newcastle is more a textbook example from recent games of team that does little attacking, scored after 2 minutes with that own goal and then barely had an attack for rest of the game. Everton also only had one shot on target v you which was the goal, Southampton had 5 yesterday.
The shot they hit off the post was very lucky, he shot from an awkward position with 2 defenders between him and the goal. It wasn't a well crafted chance, it was a punt that took a wild deflection, if you're expecting those to go in you're going to be disappointed more often than not. I don't know what their creativity is usually like but 0.46 xG shows you their attacks were low quality and they were incredibly reliant on set pieces.
But that is precisely, again, why people rate Hasenhuttl. It's the same as why Klopp at Dortmund was so revered, as was Simeone at Athelti - they were taking lesser quality teams up against a league's dominant team/teams and winning the title. With managers like Hasenhuttl, obviously Soton aren't going to win a title, but they are getting their teams to perform way above the level I think you'd expect with an 'average' manager. The fact he can make it difficult for teams like Liverpool, United, City etc is because of their style - how else would they be competitive in those games when there is such a financial gulf between the teams?
Klopp at Pool is a good example of coaching ability because think of the reputations of players like Mane, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Salah, even VVD who got better (or maybe more accurately were used better) when they joined Liverpool. They were obviously on another level to this current Soton squad but the basic premise of getting a team to function above its level is the same. Then they had that window of Fabinho, Keita and Alisson and went from chasing City to winning the CL and the PL. This is also the same reason why I think a lot of football fans think Pep is overrated (he's a great manager but not the messiah a lot of people used to claim) because he's consistently had the deepest, most expensive and best team on paper and he's not been as dominant as people would have expected.
They are better off the ball than on it. If they had two quality wide men yesterday, they would have hurt us.
Che Adams was phenomenal yesterday.
Che Adams was phenomenal yesterday.
I didn't say anything about rating Hasenhutl. That's entirely another topic. Which I have pretty much no idea tbh. But based on the last match alone I don't rate him really high. He lost a match after leading 2-0 in the first half.
We were discussing on your comparison of United squad and Sou squad is like a Lambor and a Ford. Which is completely not true imo.
I'm not a huge fan of xG really being this massive thing all of a sudden. Of course you can also look at how the set pieces are won aswell. It's not like Saints were just booting the ball up to edge of the box and targetman striker was craftly winning free kick by just collapsing on edge of the box.
They broke through the lines well and think it was Djenpo again who was taken out right on the edge of the box (annoyingly highlights just show FK being taken) so not sure why that's being taken in different context to player running through and being taken out in the box for penalty which has accounted for 2 of Man. United's three goals scored at home in the league this season.
Would also say not sure how many teams would still be attacking Man. United relentlessly at 2 up, majority of teams would sit back in that context so that would reduce attacking output in second half. They just didn't have the right sort of set up to see out the 2-0 on the pitch and you punished them for it.
I’m sorry, I don’t agree. Creativity is measured in the production of chances, not in the production of goals or posts hit.
Southampton created a few corners, one of which went in, and a freekick outside the box, none ofwhich are particularily great chances (even with WP)nor proof of successful creativity.Walker-Peters got a shot of from an angle by the corner of the box, closely covered by Telles and one more defender behind him, and with De Gea in a good position. It was not a particularily good chance, and it was a lucky deflection with a lucky spin that made it curl towards the post. That can happen, but it’s not much to brag about. The weak covered shot that an injured De Gea palmed askew to whowasit? Who didn’t have time to do much before it crossed the line - if it was United, we’d have complained about that level of productivity and counted ourselves ‘deceptively efficient’ after that half.
This sounds interesting. Would you elaborate more on this please?
What if he reverted to a low block 433 and tried to hit United on the counter? He got decent defenders, a good midfield and pretty fast forwards I think?
Well that's what happens at Old Trafford so far. 3 league goals scored all season with two of them being penalties. Your game works better away with your front 3 have much more space to run into particularly in the second half.
Southampton aren't actually that good a team at home, only won 5 at home all of last season so that's something you could level as a weak point of Hasenhuttl's gameplan in that they can't impose as well on opponents at home as away where they're frequently excellent.
Currently on 3 home wins out of 5 which is probably their best home run under him so improving in that regard this season.
I said it earlier up, he should've just done something extremely basic like put Diallo on at 2 up (he put him on about a minute before Cavani scored the winner). 3rd CM in alongside Romeu and JWP and might've nulified Bruno a bit more who was still drifting into plenty of space centrally which is always dangerous. Armstrong was pretty sloppy on the ball in second half so would've hooked him.
It's nothing left field but I'm sure Mourinho would've done it in that game situation to condense the space.
Just looked back and what he did was double change on 89th minute. What's interesting is he took Walkers Peters off in 89th minute. Look at winner again and Southampton are incredibly slow to get out to Rashford for the winner and he has time to hit in excellent cross. Perhaps if Walkers Peters had stayed on he'd have sensed the danger and closed down quicker given he's an RB.
I watch them on and off, as much as I do any other Premier League team that isn't United.
They are a solid team yes, but so are any midtable Premiership team.
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Ah I see what you mean now. I mistook 'didn't' with 'couldn't' or 'don't'. Funny me.
I checked your posts in this thread and yeah it was me quoting you on the post you mentioned saying pretty much the same thing
I'm sorry, but where has he improved them to exactly? Southampton have always been an upper midtable club and as far as I can see, that is what they currently are at the moment.
It's a prettier facade than it was under Hughes, I'll grant you that but it's nothing that I hadn't seen before from Poch, Koeman, and Adkins before him. He's got a win % that is barely 1% above Claude Puel's, and is presently a smidge under 39%. What exactly makes you think he'd be qualified to do a job here?
You can watch us and try and work out what Ole's trying to do, while I watch us and enjoy the goals as they go in. The team shape more than did it's job. Southampton scored against the run of play and quickly scored another - both of which were set play goals which didn't require them to outplay us, so again, what are you looking for exactly? We created enough in the first half to have scored 2 before Southampton even ventured in our half and we dominated at least 70 of the 95 minutes. Even in that 15-20 minute period of Southampton pressure we still had enough clear chances to score at least once more. Cavani is 33 years old and should have his workload managed. Martial being taken ill probably forced Ole to play Greenwood, and Rashford had a rest v Leipzig, so he hasn't played every single minute either.
Saw the crazy stat of them 2nd top for winning in the first half and second bottom for losing in the second. Clearly has an issue with them struggling to function when teams are going at them in the second half.
I wasn’t commenting on United’s creativity, but Southamptons against United yesterday.
I don’t understand why you keep referring to home and away games under covid, btw, it’s well established that home/away doesn’t work the same way with no audiences.
I don't watch them much but imo it's because they usually press too much in the first half and run out of gas in the second half?
Last match they were obviously out of gas by the last 20'-25' I think.
Seems to happen a lot though for them to not spot it or not sort it. Also heard they've lost the most points from winning in the PL over so many games.
Tbh it's quite weird for me for Sou to not address this last match.
I was watching and wondering at the same time why they didn't change their approach or bring on a few subs. While obviously their team was out of gas and quite open.
If they had no fresh leg to bring on they could simply revert to a defensive and counter approach by the second half. They lead by two nil, they just needed to defend it. They have a quality midfield, decent defense and fast forwards. It's just too ideal to sit back and counter I think.
His team is known for relentless pressing but yesterday Manutd pressed 190 times vs 126 for Southampton.
Created sweet feck all apart from the lucky deflected shot off the post. Deserved nothing at all yesterday, can't believe there is an actual discussion on this.
If you watched the 90 mins you would know and just watching 'highlights' isn't enough to form an opinion.
If you watched the 90 mins you would know and just watching 'highlights' isn't enough to form an opinion.
One of those rare posts with nuance and perspective - thank you!
David Moyes - a veteran manager, someone who managed a club like Everton for 11 years and finished in top 7 for 8 of those years - struggled at United with a team that had just won the league.
Elite coaches like LVG, Mou cracked under pressure at United.