FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

But you're missing the point. Even in the best case scenario where the term is meant as a "term of endearment", why is it only black people that are reduced to their skin colour? Is there an equivalent "Thanks whitey" which is also used as a "term of endearment"? I suspect you already know the answer to that.



So your best case scenario is Cavani saying "Thanks black guy". What does the person's blackness have to do with anything again? Let's see your bone-headed response.

A black NBA player got off with a fine & no ban after calling a white player a “bitch ass white boy” - this is clearly not meant in endearment yet his punishment was extremely light. Reverse the roles & the white player never plays again. I’m sorry but referring to someone’s skin colour is something that happens in all races. There’s a double standard in the amount of outrage dependent on what colour the person who says it is.

If Fred thanked a fan with “thanks white bro” we would not be having the conversation right now. We just wouldn’t. There would be zero controversy.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I’m saying that some people will have been inspired by the discovery of the word yesterday (I never knew the word) and use the ‘Spanish context‘ as justification for using it, whimsy actually intending racial hurt.

Adults rather than kids.

If you need to be inspired to use racist epithets then there’s a real problem with you.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Amazes me that no actual real people are giving a shit about this right now. None.

The Internet has a lot to answer for.

 

[cyberman]

Considering I've spent a reasonable portion of my life in both general regions and been called both terms, I think I'm allowed to have a personal opinion on it. I don't know who them is in this instance and, as I keep on saying, I have no intention of changing the Spanish language or South American culture as a whole (and don't think anybody is suggesting that either).

But theres actual Spanish speaking native fans on here, from that culture, telling us its not even being close to racist. Youre still an outsider looking in to be fair.
We are back to telling people what their intentions are instead of listening to what theyre trying to tell us.
If it wasnt negrito, if it was Disneyo and didnt look like the N word then there wouldn't be this argument.
Will we ban the actual Spanish word for Black and all its derivatives next?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Can you link me to the list of all the foreign words in all of the languages in the world that I'm not supposed to use in the UK?

And on social media? (which is global).

The sooner the world adopts English and every English opinion, the easier it'll be for everyone.

Well not everyone obviously.

 

[spiriticon]

If the mods here handed out 3 week bans for anything which can be construed as remotely offensive in any context of any language, we'd have no one on this forum...

Actually that might be a good thing...

 

[GenZRed]

Get the feck out with that bollocks. Awful, awful take.

Actually context is important. Only knee-jerk heroes will state otherwise.

 

[Jacob]

fecking sick of this snowflake era, politically correct era.

 

[Red Star One]

The whole situation is like some absurdist comedy.

I've lived in four different countries. Age 6-10 I spent with my family in Brazil, where these type of nicknames are an important part of everyday speech. I am extremely dark skinned black, born in Ethiopia - yet the nickname I always got was Gordito because I was a chubby little kid. The people I most remember getting the Negrito nickname were light-skinned people with dark hair.

Anglo countries have become obsessed with actively looking for offence, even if it means actively ignoring all context and intent. It genuinely baffles me to see people comparing this situation to Suarez-Evra, like there's no difference in using the word Negro multiple times in an argument with a stranger, while pinching his skin and allegedly saying 'I don't speak to blacks' - compared to a man publically (ie clearly with good intent) using a nickname while thanking a friend for his congratulations.

The ironic thing is, despite the absolutely endless - often damaging imo - hyperfocus on identity and tolerance in Anglo countries, the second that a situation happens where a person's actions actually have to be judged in light of their own cultural background, everybody instead just pretends that context doesn't exist, that their own narrow cultural frame of reference overrules all others and that erasure of South American culture and language is not just fine, but encouraged.

Demanding things like a 'reeducation' is just so creepy, and ironically reinforcing of some sort of perceived Anglo superiority.

Great post and said nickname negrito I remember hearing myself while in Latin and Central America watching children play, often football, and it would usually come from hair color, so this whole drama is a bit beyond me, yet I understand the stance Premier League (and Anglo societies in general) take on this and perhaps this obsession is somewhat inevitable. Context is not always easy to catch

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The whole situation is like some absurdist comedy.

I've lived in four different countries. Age 6-10 I spent with my family in Brazil, where these type of nicknames are an important part of everyday speech. I am extremely dark skinned black, born in Ethiopia - yet the nickname I always got was Gordito because I was a chubby little kid. The people I most remember getting the Negrito nickname were light-skinned people with dark hair.

Anglo countries have become obsessed with searching for offence, even if it means actively ignoring all context and intent. It genuinely baffles me to see people comparing this situation to Suarez-Evra, like there's no difference in using the word Negro multiple times in an argument with a stranger, while pinching his skin and allegedly saying 'I don't speak to blacks' - compared to a man publically (ie clearly with good intent) using a nickname while thanking a friend for his congratulations.

The ironic thing is, despite the absolutely endless - often damaging imo - hyperfocus on identity and 'tolerance' in Anglo countries, the second that a situation happens where a person's actions actually have to be judged in light of their own cultural background, everybody instead just pretends that context doesn't exist, that their own narrow cultural frame of reference overrules all others and that erasure of South American culture and language is not just fine, but encouraged.

Demanding things like a 'reeducation' is just so creepy, and ironically reinforcing of some sort of perceived Anglo superiority.

Maybe it us Anglo's who actually need the education.

 

[cyberman]

Just don't refer to someone by their race. Its not a foreign word issue, its a cultural issue around how people are referred to

Thats not our place to decide to be honest

 

[Cascarino]

The Swaztika Is sign from ancient Hindu and Buddhist culture and connotes divinity or deep spiritualism inside India or Thailand.

but Nazi Germans culturally appropriated a version of this sign and it remains hugely offensive inside countries like U.K. today.

despite Hinduism owning this sign centuries before British people because aware of it, British Hindu’s are extremely careful how it is used inside U.K. and would never ever display in a public context, despite it meaning something very positive for them.

Interesting post.

Amazes me that no actual real people are giving a shit about this right now. None.

The Internet has a lot to answer for.

I’m not sure what you were expecting?

 

[bsCallout]

I’m not going to take the time to explain my stance on every social issue just to prove to some random guy online that I’m on the left.

He's being ridiculous. He'd argue in the playground that he is more left than you.

The whole situation is like some absurdist comedy.

I've lived in four different countries. Age 6-10 I spent with my family in Brazil, where these type of nicknames are an important part of everyday speech. I am extremely dark skinned black, born in Ethiopia - yet the nickname I always got was Gordito because I was a chubby little kid. The people I most remember getting the Negrito nickname were light-skinned people with dark hair.

Anglo countries have become obsessed with searching for offence, even if it means actively ignoring all context and intent. It genuinely baffles me to see people comparing this situation to Suarez-Evra, like there's no difference in using the word Negro multiple times in an argument with a stranger, while pinching his skin and allegedly saying 'I don't speak to blacks' - compared to a man publically (ie clearly with good intent) using a nickname while thanking a friend for his congratulations.

The ironic thing is, despite the absolutely endless - often damaging imo - hyperfocus on identity and tolerance in Anglo countries, the second that a situation happens where a person's actions actually have to be judged in light of their own cultural background, everybody instead just pretends that context doesn't exist, that their own narrow cultural frame of reference overrules all others and that erasure of South American culture and language is not just fine, but encouraged.

Demanding things like a 'reeducation' is just so creepy, and ironically reinforcing of some sort of perceived Anglo superiority.

Your experience doesn't matter because Samskky who has no experience or understanding of its cultural context finds it upsetting. He speaks for the offended(not that there are any).

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

We don't know the skin color of the person Cavani was replying to. But I'll said what myself and others from South America have said in this thread earlier but seems to be ignored: the terms 'negro' and 'negrito' are used affectionately between white people talking to other white people in Uruguay and Argentina. So it is not necessarily even a reference to skin color at all.

Wasn't the person he was addressing white?

I personally think it's irrelevant who he was addressing, he's using racially loaded language whilst in the UK and on a public space. You have to take in to consideration that what may seem a term of endearment to you can be derogatory or offensive to someone else.

The swastika use to be a symbol of prosperity and good luck in India way before the Nazi's were a thing, but you wouldn't catch many using it expecting people to immediately understand the context.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Yes, when European languages have evolved within the societal context of slavery, white supremacy and embedded cultural racism, when those societies then decide to eradicate racism, their language absolutely has to also evolve or change.

So words that are no longer used in context of slavery in some parts of the world, need not change.

 

[Cassidy]

I don't mind if people have opinion. But coming from a somebody that have past, like he has, makes me always think that they should concentrate on their own life and problems before commenting others.

Key word being past...

 

[antohan]

I'm not debating the term, but given how profile the word was during that saga he should have avoided using it, you know just a bit of common sense.

You think Cavani didn't have better things to do than log into the caf or British papers and read up all the discussion on the Suarez incident? In a foreign language he doesn't master?

Outdoors and baguettes man, much better.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I'm not a native speaker in Spanish but was previously fluent enough to be able to work in Colombia and still retain a reasonable level now.

As I've said multiple times in this thread, I didn't love it but would never have dreamed to tell Colombians, or other South Americans, to change how they spoke. Similarly, as I've said, I wouldn't sanction Cavani either. Simple education would suffice.

But if someone tried calling me negrito in the UK, I wouldn't be particularly happy. Even if said in an endearing way by a friend.

You’re right. The FA should educate the entire country that the world is a big place and they should all read a lot more.

 

[GenZRed]

If the mods here handed out 3 week bans for anything which can be construed as remotely offensive in any context of any language, we'd have no one on this forum...

Actually that might be a good thing...

Tell me about it. I was once got a warning for saying 'I hope we lose' v Luton in the cup game, yet apparently wanting us to lose is quite common around here. Perhaps the mods are selective about these things, or I might have just been unlucky.

Just for clarification if anyone is wondering, i did write that on a day where I was feeling depressed about this football club. Of curse I would never *really* want us to lose.

 

[Strelok]

20 years ago I was in Brazil working on nailing a big fat contract. My Portuguese was rudimentary, I pretty much spoke Spanish and added a lot of ção and inho here and there.

When it was finally wrapped up we arranged to go have dinner that night. One of the (quite stunning) ladies offered me a lift back to the hotel and in front of fifteen people I looked at her straight in the eye as I said "Thank you love, but could we briefly stop at the shopping centre so I can buy the proper condom that this celebration deserves"

Spoiler

Camisa = shirt
Camisinha = condom

FML, watching their faces I reiterated the point that the occasion deserved a proper condom to celebrate with them all. Took me about five minutes to work it out and turn into a red beam.

 

[sammsky1]

We don't know the skin color of the person Cavani was replying to. But I'll said what myself and others from South America have said in this thread earlier but seems to be ignored: the terms 'negro' and 'negrito' are used affectionately between white people talking to other white people in Uruguay and Argentina. So it is not necessarily even a reference to skin color at all.

Then why was Suarez ostracised and punished? He can surely argue that when he didbt and couldn’t intend any malice because the word itself has none whatsoever in a Spanish context.

you can’t have it one way and then argue another.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I feel like this issus is getting far more than it deserves here. Didn't expect this thread to reach 26 pages to be honest.

It’s an issue worth debating and it’s our player so no shock in reaching the posts it has.

I don’t think there’s a single poster here who genuinely believes Cavani is racist in the slightest, just questioning the wisdom of a post.

Do high profile figures get more scrutiny? Yes
Do they have carefully vet and edit their every post in this climate? Yes
Should sports stars get punished for what may be an innocent tweet? You will. It’s unavoidable

Would it happen to me in my profession? Yes indeed. I have to abide by a code of conduct and social media posting is included

 

[Stacks]

That is a total cop out answer. The word for slave in Arabic is 'Abd'. There are some Arabs who use that exact word to refer to darker skinned people, in particular sub Saharan Africans (strangely, some in Sudan will use it against darker skinned Africans).

They are rarely using it to mean a literal slave and it is not usually meant with particular malice (ie in the same way nigger or paki are) but the connotations and underlying message of the word is clear.

My point is not that languages are easy or universal. It is that just because something is acceptable in one language does not mean a) it is or should be very acceptable in general or b) it remains acceptable in other countries or cultures.

That's a good point and the slave example is interesting. As you said, the word slave is demonstrable in having serious, historical and negative connotations associated with darker skinned people and there is no argument there. I am not just saying this because I am black.
Saying that I have heard my Somalian mates refer to each other as Abdi before which might mean something different.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Then why was Suarez ostracised and punished? He can surely argue that when he didbt and couldn’t intend any malice because the word itself has none whatsoever in a Spanish context.

you can’t have it one way and then argue another.

This has been done to death on this thread and you are now just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.

 

[ForeverRed1]

He isn’t totally stupid, he didn’t write it to be racist or disrespectful, especially right now with all that’s going on. He meant it as a term of endearment, even if it’s not seen that way. Just needs educating on why he shouldn’t be using such terminology. Apologise to rashford and stop using it as it obviously courses offence to many. Was not malicious but this is the kind of discussions that should be had. People will learn now that such terminology is not ok and hopefully stop using it.

 

[Foxbatt]

"However, in Spanish-speaking countries where there are fewer people of West African slave origin, such as Argentina and Uruguay, negro and negra are commonly used to refer to partners, close friends[22] or people in general, independent of skin color."

Now if this is the case the FA has no case. If Cavani used it to mean to offend someone or used it against an opponent then he should be suspended.
Or if the receiver complain he should be suspended.

 

[Vidyoyo]

The Swaztika Is sign from ancient Hindu and Buddhist culture and connotes divinity or deep spiritualism inside India or Thailand.

but Nazi Germans culturally appropriated a version of this sign and it remains hugely offensive inside countries like U.K. today.

despite Hinduism owning this sign centuries before British people because aware of it, British Hindu’s are extremely careful how it is used inside U.K. and would never ever display in a public context, despite it meaning something very positive for them.

Never ever he says...

Spoiler

 

[sammsky1]

Maybe it us Anglo's who actually need the education.

This is the critical point of this entire debate. But it requires true empathy and wisdom from majority ethics to be able to see this.

 

[africanspur]

But theres actual Spanish speaking native fans on here, from that culture, telling us its not even being close to racist. Youre still an outsider looking in to be fair.
We are back to telling people what their intentions are instead of listening to what theyre trying to tell us.
If it wasnt negrito, if it was Disneyo and didnt look like the N word then there wouldn't be this argument.
Will we ban the actual Spanish word for Black and all its derivatives next?

What do you mean?

1) I didn't say negrito is racist and I've reiterated that viewpoint several times. I've said that you should be culturally aware with what country you're in and change your actions/ speech accordingly.
2) I am totally sure that Cavani did not mean the message in an offensive way
3) There are lots of things people do within their own cultures which they don't see as racist or offensive but which are rightly being questioned now. Again, not saying it is racist but a whole load of nonsense is spouted about race by Brits, French, Spaniards, Germans etc. It doesn't always mean they're right. Laurence Fox is telling me the UK is apparently the least racist country in Europe, should I automatically believe him cos he's more of a native than I am? I have Egyptian nephews and nieces from my wife's side who don't think they're being racist when referring to black people as 'Abd', or when thy make clicking noises when walking past a black person on the street. Should I just accept that because they and almost every other single Egyptian I've spoken to says they're not being racist?
4) Literally nobody is saying that negro as a descriptive term should be banned and I'm not totally sure why so many people keep jumping on this particular hyperbolic point.

 

[sammsky1]

Never ever he says...

Spoiler

So my wording was slightly exaggerated. So what?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

20 years ago I was in Brazil working on nailing a big fat contract. My Portuguese was rudimentary, I pretty much spoke Spanish and added a lot of ção and inho here and there.

When it was finally wrapped up we arranged to go have dinner that night. One of the (quite stunning) ladies offered me a lift back to the hotel and in front of fifteen people I looked at her straight in the eye as I said "Thank you love, but could we briefly stop at the shopping centre so I can buy the proper condom that this celebration deserves"

Spoiler

Camisa = shirt
Camisinha = condom

FML, watching their faces I reiterated the point that the occasion deserved a proper condom to celebrate with them all. Took me about five minutes to work it out and turn into a red beam.

Post of the thread and one of the best stories I’ve ever heard

 

[Cassidy]

Thats not our place to decide to be honest

I'm speaking about in the UK by the way, hence why I said cultural issue. Obviously, UK society dictates what is socially acceptable in the UK.
And UK professional bodies dictate what their spokes persons/employees can say on public platforms, this has always been the case whether you think its right or not.

I have no personal issue with what Cavani said.

Similarly, there may be things I say in the UK which are not culturally acceptable in Latin America, and if I do working for a Latin American company on a public forum I may be reprimanded.

I actually see this quite a bit since I am of dual nationality, there are things which are said in my native country which are not acceptable here and vice versa.

Interestingly in my native country referring to people by colour is also common in some regions, doesn't mean I would do it here, also doesn't mean historically it was never problematic

 

[spiriticon]

Then why was Suarez ostracised and punished? He can surely argue that when he didbt and couldn’t intend any malice because the word itself has none whatsoever in a Spanish context.

you can’t have it one way and then argue another.

Because Evra was offended and wanted it to be followed up, so it was.

If Cavani and his mate are all friendly and slapping each other on the back calling each other dirty names, why are we offended about it?

 

[sammsky1]

This has been done to death on this thread and you are now just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.

I’m perfectly comfortable in my stance on this.

 

[brzez]

Have to say, I've read some very strange takes in here, even taking into account there will be a rush to defend a player who plays for your own team.

Firstly, let me just say I don't think Cavani meant any offence, was using it in a derogatory way or should be banned for this. However:

-Nobody is policing the Spanish or Portugese languages or telling them they cannot speak how they want to. If they want to refer to black people or darker skinned people in South America as negrito and they are happy with that, then go ahead. But when you move somewhere else, you need to be mindful of the different cultural norms in that country. Nobody is telling Cavani to not go and say negrito to his heart's content in Uruguay or going to Uruguay and telling them to stop using it.

-Its interesting to me to hear people use the 'little Arab' example. Nobody in the Arab world uses the phrase 'little Arab' but interestingly, some Arabs use 'Abd' or 'slave' as a term to refer to black people. It isn't meant to be a term of endearment for sure but also isn't really meant to be an offensive word as such either. I have had that directed at me by people in Middle Eastern countries, whether they know I speak Arabic or not. It is socially acceptable there to do so yet I would say if someone moved here, they should of course be strongly discouraged fvrom using that word in the West. If they want to carry on using it in Iraq or Egypt, nobody is telling them to stop.

-The British don't think they rule the world ffs and this has nothing to do with that.

-The FA have nothing to do with any racism in British society and they cannot police, or 'look at' anything outside of their jurisdiction, which are the English football leagues and English national team.

In Arabic you have words like “kalb” and “haywan.” A simple translate to English would be dog and animal, but try say that to Arabic people, and then try saying it to for example Scandinavians. It gets you different reactions buddy. There’s over 7000 languages in the world, and whether you accept it or not there are words in one language that may resemble a banished word, but has a completely different meaning. Negro in Spanish means black. Is it a bad word in Spanish? No, but it can be used in a bad sentence. And Cavani hasn’t used it in the wrong way, and even if you translate it directly it’s not the brutal word that you all seem to seek for.

 

[Cascarino]

What do you mean?

1) I didn't say negrito is racist and I've reiterated that viewpoint several times. I've said that you should be culturally aware with what country you're in and change your actions/ speech accordingly.
2) I am totally sure that Cavani did not mean the message in an offensive way
3) There are lots of things people do within their own cultures which they don't see as racist or offensive but which are rightly being questioned now. Again, not saying it is racist but a whole load of nonsense is spouted about race by Brits, French, Spaniards, Germans etc. It doesn't always mean they're right. Laurence Fox is telling me the UK is apparently the least racist country in Europe, should I automatically believe him cos he's more of a native than I am? I have Egyptian nephews and nieces from my wife's side who don't think they're being racist when referring to black people as 'Abd', or when thy make clicking noises when walking past a black person on the street. Should I just accept that because they and almost every other single Egyptian I've spoken to says they're not being racist?
4) Literally nobody is saying that negro as a descriptive term should be banned and I'm not totally sure why so many people keep jumping on this particular hyperbolic point.

Reading your posts in this thread, it must get annoying that your posts are constantly misconstrued (intentionally or unintentionally)

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Whether he's meant it to be offensive or not, it's a stupid thing for him to do.

Wish people would think about what they post online, especially given he's a superstar, who has a massive fanbase.

 

[sammsky1]

Because Evra was offended and wanted it to be followed up, so it was.

If Cavani and his mate are all friendly and slapping each other on the back calling each other dirty names, why are we offended about it?

But Spanish speakers have argued without reserve that the word itself cannot have offence.

 

[antohan]

It would be interesting to see if his brother calls him whitey?

Why is it always the darker skinned people who get identified by the colour of their skin?

No, because I hardly come across as white, just lighter shade of olive. The ones who are very white typically have (or are assigned) a direct link with a specific nationality (el Polaco, el Vasco, el Ruso...). Go find me a "gringo" who isn't white. In Mexico you get "el güero" which is a fair-haired white chap.

 

[MackRobinson]

I agree with your first point - it's been covered to death now but some people seem insistent on ignoring this and instead applying their own misguided logic to a subject they know nothing about

But I would take issue with your second point - negro is not a synonym for black. Synonym means an alternative, but Negro is the actual Spanish word for black. The only word in Spanish for black.

If you buy a black car in Spain, it's 'coche negro', coche being Spanish for car. There is literally no other way in Spanish to describe your black car (or black jacket, or black ink, or black plastic guttering, or black anything) without using the word negro. Well that's unless we propose to Spanish speakers that they either change their word for black to an entirely new word so as not to offend some idiots in our country, or tell them to use the phrase 'that colour we can't reference by name that starts with an 'n'.

I can't argue with anything you have said, but I was speaking in terms of America. MLK and Malcom X both referred to black people as "negroes". This is one of the weirdest things to be offended by.