The relative strength of the Premier League

[Hansi Fick]

Just bumping this thread with an interesting look. I originally got slated for saying some of the players in the United team were not good enough for the prem but would thrive elsewhere. Well Smalling and Young went to top quality European sides, Depay was wanted by Barce who couldn’t afford him and Blind, Darmian and Herrrera also moved “up” when they left the squad.

Yup.
It can really only be one of two things:
The first and obvious answer is that these other leagues are ultimately inferior and it takes less quality to thrive there.
And then, they simply happen to have fluke days, upward outliers, everytime they meet Premier League teams in the Champions League, like Lyon vs City and so on.

Because else the only explanation could be that Manchester United over all these years has been a dysfunctional team that couldn't manage to translate their individual players' qualities onto the pitch, and that's evidently absurd.

 

[adexkola]

Yup.
It can really only be one of two things:
The first and obvious answer is that these other leagues are ultimately inferior and it takes less quality to thrive there.
And then, they simply happen to have fluke days, upward outliers, everytime they meet Premier League teams in the Champions League, like Lyon vs City and so on.

Because else the only explanation could be that Manchester United over all these years has been a dysfunctional team that couldn't manage to translate their individual players' qualities onto the pitch, and that's evidently absurd.

 

[Lord SInister]

Premier League is the most overrated league in the world, period.
Every top league this season has been exciting, but all you hear is how competitive has EPL being, as if other leagues haven't seen their share of upsets, but at the end of the day, top sides get to the top positions in the league, it is same everywhere, even EPL. but the way media and social media fans cream over a West Brom drawing a Liverpool is hilarious.

 

[giorno]

Yup.
It can really only be one of two things:
The first and obvious answer is that these other leagues are ultimately inferior and it takes less quality to thrive there.

I mean, this isn't untrue in 2020. Though i would say it's more specific than that. The important thing to have success in the PL is to be really good in duels - players that aren't great in that regard but are otherwise good can thrive in other leagues, but in the PL they just won't

 

[dbs235]

And then, they simply happen to have fluke days, upward outliers, everytime they meet Premier League teams in the Champions League, like Lyon vs City and so on.

On a similar theme English teams seem to have been more susceptible to upsets or going out in stupid fashion in the CL/Europa over the years than the rest of Europe. Teams like Olympiacos and Basel for example love a good result against English teams. Sevilla knocked Wolves and United out last season with the aeging Navas and Fernando, and Luuk de Jong who couldn't score for Newcastle. If Man City were still fielding Navas and Fernando they'd do nothing in Europe. Morata was laughed out of Chelsea but comes to Anfield and scores twice to knock the CL holders out. Not an exact science but maybe it's one for the weird feelings of football thread.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Just bumping this thread with an interesting look. I originally got slated for saying some of the players in the United team were not good enough for the prem but would thrive elsewhere. Well Smalling and Young went to top quality European sides, Depay was wanted by Barce who couldn’t afford him and Blind, Darmian and Herrrera also moved “up” when they left the squad.

Italian league is so fecking shit though compared to what it was.

 

[Wumminator]

Yup.
It can really only be one of two things:
The first and obvious answer is that these other leagues are ultimately inferior and it takes less quality to thrive there.
And then, they simply happen to have fluke days, upward outliers, everytime they meet Premier League teams in the Champions League, like Lyon vs City and so on.

Because else the only explanation could be that Manchester United over all these years has been a dysfunctional team that couldn't manage to translate their individual players' qualities onto the pitch, and that's evidently absurd.

We’ve already established a lot can happen in the CL. This thread is above “x team beat y team in a cup so they’re better.”

 

[Afganitia]

We’ve already established a lot can happen in the CL. This thread is above “x team beat y team in a cup so they’re better.”

Well, this goes the other way too. How many good Premier league players that move to la liga and show the world that they were just talk? It's no the same to defeat Stoke City, than to defeat levante (the latter being the higher level ofc). This is something that has been happening for years.

Let's check individual players:

- coutinho: star at Liverpool, on the best players in the world supposedly, because it played well against the likes of wba. Played in la liga and in the bundesliga and shows absolutely nothing.

- hazard: top player supposedly, because it trounced the defense of cristal Palace and the likes. Goes to la liga and flops terribly.

- cesc Fàbregas: star at arsenal. Sub I'm spain.

- woodgate: showed his real level in Spain.

- owen: another suposed star leaving Premier league.

- hleb: teorically a very decent player. In reality a relegation fodder player in Spin.

-Song: starter at arsenal, went to Barcelona, currently playing in the Djibuti league.

And a long etc. Of supposedly good players flopping here.

However, we have the opposite in the other direction, average players in Spain suddenly becoming good players in the Premier league: de gea, Oriol Romeu, etc.


The reality of the situation is the when moving form one league to another, a lot of things can go wrong.

 

[Wumminator]

Well, this goes the other way too. How many good Premier league players that move to la liga and show the world that they were just talk? It's no the same to defeat Stoke City, than to defeat levante (the latter being the higher level ofc). This is something that has been happening for years.

Let's check individual players:

- coutinho: star at Liverpool, on the best players in the world supposedly, because it played well against the likes of wba. Played in la liga and in the bundesliga and shows absolutely nothing.

- hazard: top player supposedly, because it trounced the defense of cristal Palace and the likes. Goes to la liga and flops terribly.

- cesc Fàbregas: star at arsenal. Sub I'm spain.

- woodgate: showed his real level in Spain.

- owen: another suposed star leaving Premier league.

- hleb: teorically a very decent player. In reality a relegation fodder player in Spin.

-Song: starter at arsenal, went to Barcelona, currently playing in the Djibuti league.

And a long etc. Of supposedly good players flopping here.

However, we have the opposite in the other direction, average players in Spain suddenly becoming good players in the Premier league: de gea, Oriol Romeu, etc.


The reality of the situation is the when moving form one league to another, a lot of things can go wrong.

You’re right. People like Owen and Woodgate moving to Spain really emphasise how badly it can go wrong in contemporary football.

 

[danamann]

The delusion of some of the PL fanboys is comical. Literally anything that happens is a sign that the PL is superior. Sad and frankly pathetic, where does this need come from, @Wumminator ?

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

The delusion of some of the PL fanboys is comical. Literally anything that happens is a sign that the PL is superior. Sad and frankly pathetic, where does this need come from, @Wumminator ?

You are going a little over the top here, your on a PL teams forum where the majority of people watch PL games. When I had more time I used to watch German football and Spanish football more but simply didn't enjoy it as much as the PL mainly. Its not being a fan boy, its not delusion and it certainly isn't pathetic, its personal; choice.

 

[Wumminator]

The delusion of some of the PL fanboys is comical. Literally anything that happens is a sign that the PL is superior. Sad and frankly pathetic, where does this need come from, @Wumminator ?

PL fanboy? Not at all. The league is run horrendously.

 

[danamann]

You are going a little over the top here, your on a PL teams forum where the majority of people watch PL games. When I had more time I used to watch German football and Spanish football more but simply didn't enjoy it as much as the PL mainly. Its not being a fan boy, its not delusion and it certainly isn't pathetic, its personal; choice.

I personally enjoy the PL the most as well. But I don't feel the need to bring up terrible arguments time and again as to why I not only enjoy it, but also why it's the bestest!!1! League in the World.

There is an interesting discussion to be had about differences in quality but some posters are not interested in that, they rather further their agenda by contrstucting false narratives and it's getting tiresome.

 

[Afganitia]

You’re right. People like Owen and Woodgate moving to Spain really emphasise how badly it can go wrong in contemporary football.

As much as saying that lukaku and Young as thriving in a top European side. Fantastic job are doing, 4 in the champions league group being powerhouses like borussia and shaktar. Lukaku gets extra points for making them lose Europa league last year.

Ander herrera managed to play 8 matches in the French league last season. Surely a sign of quality.

 

[Bepi]

The new Atlantic League deal with poor sod Iceland, mineral-rich Greenland, Penguins FC (a novel institution brought to you by...) from the North Pole and the East Coast’s soccer mums association will be unveiled shortly, stay tuned.

 

[do.ob]

You are going a little over the top here, your on a PL teams forum where the majority of people watch PL games. When I had more time I used to watch German football and Spanish football more but simply didn't enjoy it as much as the PL mainly. Its not being a fan boy, its not delusion and it certainly isn't pathetic, its personal; choice.

There is a difference between supporting a team and an entire league. Or even hitching your self worth to the perceived greatness of said league, so you have reassure yourself of it's supposed dominance at every bit of news.
Take this thread as an example: created in 2016 in the middle of the PL's low point in the European rankings, when the competition was so weak, even Leicester could win it and Spurs almost came close.
Maybe this is a long term project of OP to satirize British football fan culture, but you don't really see it from fans of continental clubs. At least not nearly to this extend.

 

[Wumminator]

There is a difference between supporting a team and an entire league. Or even hitching your self worth to the perceived greatness of said league, so you have reassure yourself of it's supposed dominance at every bit of news.
Take this thread as an example: created in 2016 in the middle of the PL's low point in the European rankings, when the competition was so weak, even Leicester could win it and Spurs almost came close.
Maybe this is a long term project of OP to satirize British football fan culture, but you don't really see it from fans of continental clubs. At least not nearly to this extend.

I don’t like the PL. I wish the money was distributed evenly. However it’s the strongest league by far.

 

[Cascarino]

I don’t like the PL. I wish the money was distributed evenly. However it’s the strongest league by far.

With the benefit of hindsight, do you think you were right in your assessment of the PL back when you started this thread?

 

[Wumminator]

With the benefit of hindsight, do you think you were right in your assessment of the PL back when you started this thread?

I mean... it’s obvious I was.

 

[Cascarino]

I mean... it’s obvious I was.

At no point did Leicester winning the title, with a very average Arsenal side coming in second 10 points off the pace, make you reconsider the strength of the league for a second?

 

[Wumminator]

At no point did Leicester winning the title, with a very average Arsenal side coming in second 10 points off the pace, make you reconsider the strength of the league for a second?

In threads like this, a lot of people try for a “gotya” moment. Like if an English team lost to a Spanish team loads would post a lot of green smilies.

Ignore those moments. Football takes place over seasons.

In the first few pages of this thread I clearly explained that the prem had greater strength in depth. I said it was only going to get stronger. I said I worried about the Bundesliga as their teams wouldn’t be able to compete. I mentioned that the English clubs now had advantages that Barce and Madrid would struggle to match. I suggested that soon the premier league teams would start performing better in Europe.

It’s all there. People were posting that the Bundesliga would go from strength to strength. That Barce and Madrid would absolutely dominate our league

 

[Cascarino]

In threads like this, a lot of people try for a “gotya” moment. Like if an English team lost to a Spanish team loads would post a lot of green smilies.

Ignore those moments. Football takes place over seasons.

In the first few pages of this thread I clearly explained that the prem had greater strength in depth. I said it was only going to get stronger. I said I worried about the Bundesliga as their teams wouldn’t be able to compete. I mentioned that the English clubs now had advantages that Barce and Madrid would struggle to match. I suggested that soon the premier league teams would start performing better in Europe.

It’s all there. People were posting that the Bundesliga would go from strength to strength. That Barce and Madrid would absolutely dominate our league

How much Spanish football did you watch?. The Spanish league had the better teams, and it had more depth as well. Their top teams would have easily beaten the PL top teams, and that would have been fairly standard throughout the league down to the bottom sides.

I assume you’re right when talking about the German league and their depth, but I didn’t watch enough German football to have a fair say. Spain had won 24 of their last 27 European ties against English sides from the end of the 2000s to a year or two ago. Sure you can write off individual matches, but when everything points to one league being significantly stronger, they win the trophies, I don’t know what your grounds are for your opinion.

Yes the league improved, Guardiola and Klopp coming in had a large effect (and given plenty of money to spend). But the years you were talking about in the op? Not even close, La Liga was top.

 

[do.ob]

How much Spanish football did you watch?. The Spanish league had the better teams, and it had more depth as well. Their top teams would have easily beaten the PL top teams, and that would have been fairly standard throughout the league down to the bottom sides.

I assume you’re right when talking about the German league and their depth, but I didn’t watch enough German football to have a fair say. Spain had won 24 of their last 27 European ties against English sides from the end of the 2000s to a year or two ago. Sure you can write off individual matches, but when everything points to one league being significantly stronger, they win the trophies, I don’t know what your grounds are for your opinion.

Yes the league improved, Guardiola and Klopp coming in had a large effect (and given plenty of money to spend). But the years you were talking about in the op? Not even close, La Liga was top.

Well if you scroll down the first page you'll find a post where he claimed the PL has more teams than the Spanish league, so it's pretty safe the assume the answer is somewhere close to zero.

Doesn't stop him from relentlessly comparing leagues according to arbitrary metrics though.

 

[Wumminator]

Well if you scroll down the first page you'll find a post where he claimed the PL has more teams than the Spanish league, so it's pretty safe the assume the answer is somewhere close to zero.

Doesn't stop him from relentlessly comparing leagues according to arbitrary metrics though.

I never said that did I.

Also you can not tell the quality of a team by watching them in isolation. I could go watch a Conference North match and both clubs could play incredibly attractive football. It doesn’t mean that they would do well in the Prem. Watching La Liga teams play each other means nothing.

 

[Cascarino]

I never said that did I.

Also you can not tell the quality of a team by watching them in isolation. I could go watch a Conference North match and both clubs could play incredibly attractive football. It doesn’t mean that they would do well in the Prem. Watching La Liga teams play each other means nothing.

You can tell a lot about a side when they play each other, especially when you have clubs that compete at the highest levels of European competition. It gives you somewhat of a benchmark that watching non-league sides doesn’t.

If we can’t judge a side by watching it on domestic competition, and you’ve already ruled out judging them from their European performances, when you made that op what was the defining metric for ranking the leagues?

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

There is a difference between supporting a team and an entire league. Or even hitching your self worth to the perceived greatness of said league, so you have reassure yourself of it's supposed dominance at every bit of news.
Take this thread as an example: created in 2016 in the middle of the PL's low point in the European rankings, when the competition was so weak, even Leicester could win it and Spurs almost came close.
Maybe this is a long term project of OP to satirize British football fan culture, but you don't really see it from fans of continental clubs. At least not nearly to this extend.

But what wrong wit that? I like the PL because I know the teams of the clubs involved, I know the managers style, I know the mentality of the fans of the different teams. While I watch and enjoy German football and watch but don't really enjoy La Liga to the same level, I simply don't know the individual clubs to the same level. There are many different reasons why English clubs on a whole don't do as well in European competition, some I can explain and some I cant.

 

[Cheimoon]

You can tell a lot about a side when they play each other, especially when you have clubs that compete at the highest levels of European competition. It gives you somewhat of a benchmark that watching non-league sides doesn’t.

If we can’t judge a side by watching it on domestic competition, and you’ve already ruled out judging them from their European performances, when you made that op what was the defining metric for ranking the leagues?

I was wondering about that as well. Can't take anything from European encounters between clubs from the relevant leagues, can't just count trophies, can't look at domestic games; is budget the only remaining criterion once all that has been excluded?

 

[do.ob]

But what wrong wit that? I like the PL because I know the teams of the clubs involved, I know the managers style, I know the mentality of the fans of the different teams. While I watch and enjoy German football and watch but don't really enjoy La Liga to the same level, I simply don't know the individual clubs to the same level. There are many different reasons why English clubs on a whole don't do as well in European competition, some I can explain and some I cant.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying or liking one league more than others. It's probably the default for the vast majority of people. But it gets weird when people turn that preference into aggression and end up with a thread like this, or "logical" constructs like OPs.

As an example take a look at the replies to this tweet, an account dedicated solely to French football tweeting about a German coach getting sacked by a Ligue 1 club:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

There is nothing wrong with enjoying or liking one league more than others. It's probably the default for the vast majority of people. But it gets weird when people turn that preference into aggression and end up with a thread like this, or "logical" constructs like OPs.

As an example take a look at the replies to this tweet, an account dedicated solely to French football tweeting about a German coach getting sacked by a Ligue 1 club:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

There are a lot of moronic football fans .

 

[Wumminator]

There are a lot of moronic football fans .

This we can all agree onn

 

[do.ob]

There are a lot of moronic football fans .

Yes. But this "my league is better than yours", other leagues are "farmer's leagues" and this desperate confirmation bias of making every little thing that happens about a whole league (say "Young is starting games at Inter, therefore Serie A = shit" ) that goes along with it is quite partial to the PL bubble.

 

[B20]

There are many different criteria to look at I suppose.

The PL currently has five no-mark teams that exist only to scrap for relegation and little else. My guess is they'd be the same in ay other major league.

It has 15 teams that are all quite interesting and would be interesting in any league though. And I reckon a fair few of them could be doing as well or better in other leagues.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Because else the only explanation could be that Manchester United over all these years has been a dysfunctional team that couldn't manage to translate their individual players' qualities onto the pitch, and that's evidently absurd.

Good one.

Seriously, though - it could, of course, be a bit of both.

That United have been an essentially dysfunctional team (based on pretty much all relevant factors) is an undeniable fact.

That doesn't mean certain players are objectively much better than the general perception among United fans. The obvious counter to a possible "United is the problem, not the player" argument is Bruno Fernandes. The question mark that hovered over a whole string of signings does not hover over him. Because he's actually bloody good. He delivers - time and again - even in a team nobody would call perfect in any sense.

Hypothetical: replace Kagawa with Bruno. Not under Fergie (that would be unfair) - but under Moyes. Would Bruno produce as little as Kagawa did? I think not. I think he'd do much better. Individual quality isn't irrelevant - not when "quality" involves a bit of "mentality" as well as the ability to kick a ball around.

 

[Bepi]

More seriously: the historical intensity of PL football, the vast amount of monies concentrating in England since the esrly 00s and in need of tidy public projects upfront, the tactical enrichment brought in by continental managers, the great ability to put in glossy shape and sell both the culture and the product that peaked with 2012 Olympics... all these made the PL the most riveted football League of early 21st century.

That said, I am afraid, Salah was just another sloppy winger at Roma (like El Shaarawy, Under, and so on), Bruno a consistently indifferent midfielder at Udinese (even worse than Pereyra, in the eyes of the small Pozzo family international footballing empire), Praet a so-so baller at Sampdoria, Ancelotti a ready-for-retirement spent out coach at Napoli. I mean, different environments pose different challenges, so that booms and busts happen everywhere, while the intangibles remain.

Winning trophies applies a pretty universal “how to” rulebook from sports everywhere, at any level: run a club, pool the talents, train a squad, manage the highs and the lows of a long and busy season, keep expectations tolerable, and so on. What really makes me smile over and over in this forum is the perennial “they are/were there for the taking!” consideration popping up every time things go awry, as if our squad should akways play its best football of the season and the opponents akways their worst. Ah, Ranieri, the sweet assassin journeyman of any grandeur.

Maybe this entire topic just starts from there: the finest hour of football from Liverpool, City, United, Chelsea, Spurs would just blow out any given opposition, so the PL is the best league around. Unfortunately, it does not work that way. All the best for 2021, then, it will be another rocky year for everybody... and the Premier League.

 

[Markolan]

It's easy to make cherry picking stats like those. Serie A is a farmer's league because Lukaku and Young are doing well?

I can name tons of Serie A rejects who are doing well in other leagues. Let's talk about the european teams that Manchester United faced in the last 5 months only:

- Suso, Ocampos, Banega are three Serie A flop -> In Sevilla's starting XI when they eliminated Manchester United (Suso also scored a goal, Banega MotM probably).
- Florenzi couldn't start anymore for Roma, Kean and Paredes didn't thrive in Serie A-> In PSG's Starting XI when they defeated 1-3 Manchester United at Old Trafford
- Patrick Kluivert was crap for Giallorossi -> Moved to RB Leipzig and scored the decisive goal in RB Leipzig - Manchester United 3-2

PS: Young is starting over Perisic, a guy who played 35 games for FC Bayern last season and won more trophies in the past 7 months than Manchester United in the last 4 years..

 

[Acrobat7]

It's easy to make cherry picking stats like those. Serie A is a farmer's league because Lukaku and Young are doing well?

I can name tons of Serie A rejects who are doing well in other leagues. Let's talk about the european teams that Manchester United faced in the last 5 months only:

- Suso, Ocampos, Banega are three Serie A flop -> In Sevilla's starting XI when they eliminated Manchester United (Suso also scored a goal, Banega MotM probably).
- Florenzi couldn't start anymore for Roma, Kean and Paredes didn't thrive in Serie A-> In PSG's Starting XI when they defeated 1-3 Manchester United at Old Trafford
- Patrick Kluivert was crap for Giallorossi -> Moved to RB Leipzig and scored the decisive goal in RB Leipzig - Manchester United 3-2

PS: Young is starting over Perisic, a guy who played 35 games for FC Bayern last season and won more trophies in the past 7 months than Manchester United in the last 4 years..

Well played. Add guys like Salah, Firmino or even Fuchs.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Well played. Add guys like Salah, Firmino or even Fuchs.

Yeah, from Fuchs to Matip, here we have a league where even Schalke rejects become champions.
Not even going to mention Roque Santa Cruz scoring 19 goals in a single season.

 

[GameOn]

I mean as United fan I really enjoy the PL, but this "the PL is better than your farmer league and therefore my team is better than yours" agenda that some weird fans are trying to push is cringeworthy.
I've said it for a long time: Those guys don't even realize that by their logic Madrid, Bayern or Barca fans (as those are the most successful and prestigious European clubs) could arrogantly downplay every single PL club, too.

 

[DrRodo]

Amazing how every now and then this thread pops up and a few other people bites once again

 

[Needham]

Amazing how every now and then this thread pops up and a few other people bites once again

So why don't you take it into account?