Nobody could have predicted this.
The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
- Thread starter Badunk
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So from that article this 'strong' evidence is one family? Which the WHO actually mentioned in a news conference as limited human to human transmission?
This great corruption was to wait a further week for more evidence before making a conclusive statement. What a terrible attempt at a cover up that is.
I'm guessing your of the opinion if they'd have said human to human on the 14th rather than limited then miraculously this would never have got out of China?
Richer nations are buying up the vaccine supply as expected. What is wrong with the WHO raising concerns that other nations need vaccine as well? Surely not to do so would be grounds for criticism?
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My opinion is that if WHO did not recommend against issuing a travelling ban to China and provide a false sense of security to the world, countries would have stepped up precautions like Taiwan and the spread would have been much more controllable.
Vaccines are an obvious exception. Especially when it comes to covid.
Even at a purely selfish level, it’s in the interest of every country on the planet to help with vaccine distribution to the countries that might struggle to vaccinate their citizens without that support.
Otherwise we face years of anxiety about vaccine resistant strains evolving in countries with partial/ineffective vaccination programs.
Ideally yes, but it's never gonna happen and everyone knows it. At a purely selfish level, richer countries would have all their citizens vaccinated before worrying about developing nations and resistant strains. This is what happening but Tedros calls this catastrophic moral failure. It's also worth to note that many richer countries have already played their part by donating a lump sum to COVAX, aiming to support those poorer countries.
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So all countries put in a China travel ban (except business because that's the reality), cases still get out and the west still faces an explosion of cases perhaps a week or two later because they aren't prepared anyway.
I think you're quite misguided thinking all other countries were in a place to put in Taiwan like controls.
I understand what the government are aiming to do, and it does make some sense, but there needs to be a solid roll out of 2nd shots behind this rush to get as many their 1st shot as soon as possible or what's the point? Will just be more wasted time and money.
The Taiwan-like control is to activate enhanced border control and quarantine measures at early stage (Dec 31) such as screening passengers on flights from Wuhan prior to disembarkation. I don't see why other countries are not in a place to implement these measures. Countries aren't prepared only because WHO keeps providinig a false sense of security to the world, while Taiwan knows China and WHO are hiding something. Cases may still get out but keeping the case number low is key to contact tracing and isolation.
https://www.cdc.gov.tw/En/Bulletin/Detail/PAD-lbwDHeN_bLa-viBOuw?typeid=158
It’s alright, @ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg has already agreed ”it wasn’t a gamble and that promulgation of such an argument is reminiscent of Facebook arguments”, so it’ll be fine.
Just ignore the Israel data.
Vallance’s response is reasonable and the Sky News article where their “science expert “ supposedly digs into the data is flimsy to the point of deliberately misleading.
Israel only has very early data on efficacy of the vaccine i.e. before the second dose is given. And in those first three weeks Uk citizens are no less protected than Israelis. We’ll only learn if the UK has made huge mistake when we see data from after the second dose would have been given (if it’s delayed) i.e. day 21 onwards. That’s where they’re expecting/hoping for 80%+ efficacy without a second dose. And that data won’t come from Israel because they’re giving everyone a second dose as per license.
you are pretty tiresome.
I mean, look at the quote man, as though people saying it was a ”gamble” by the UK to go with 12 weeks was ”reminiscent of Facebook arguments”. Ffs man, and just a couple of days later and those fears of “gamble” are now shared by the UK experts and the data from Israel is concerning.
I’d say Facebook arguments are the ones in which a clear gamble according to the known science is declared bollocks, cause bloke on FB (or redcafe) knows better.
No data from the Pfizer or Moderna said it was the right thing to do, ergo... gamble.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ow-germany-in-making-clinical-masks-mandatory
I think that's a little bit unfair, all countries currently using pfizer are going to experience delays in the next few weeks at least and I worry considering the delays to the UK supply in December and now the EU supply (and still UK supply) now, whether this is going to be an ongoing issue for them this year.
Let's hope this ramp up in production capacity which is causing these delays allows them to be more consistent with their orders for the rest of the year.
In fairness, without having seen the original post myself, if that quote is accurate.....it very clearly is a gamble. It may ultimately end up being a brilliant one but for now, it is a gamble.
I personally would not have taken the vaccine if I had known they would do this. I did not give my consent to essentially be part of a clinical trial.
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Get in da choppa!
She should've said "Get out".
Everyone involved in the conversation admitted it might be a brilliant gamble, and is also one that is easy to understand why they took it. But a gamble it is.
Does anyone know how the demands of the EU wanting 70% vaccinated by the summer will affect Ireland? How will it affect the vaccination order?
I'm not in any risk group, will I be have one vaccine by April?
I'm not in any risk group, will I be have one vaccine by April?
Taiwan didn't act how they did because they knew that "China and WHO are hiding something" any more than NZ, Australia or Singapore did. That is pure fantasy.
Vaccine was done yesterday, definitely felt the lethargy that people mentioned, but I'm back to normal today. Dead arm has gone now as well after still being there this morning.
Hoping my next jab isn't 12 weeks away as I'm currently shielding till mid-Feb so would be nice to be fully vaccinated by the time I go back to work.
Hoping my next jab isn't 12 weeks away as I'm currently shielding till mid-Feb so would be nice to be fully vaccinated by the time I go back to work.
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I can express an opinion, without some random bloke on the internet turning into a drama Queen.
The term gamble probably doesn't sit right with some because it was done with reasoning behind it and probably in the full knowledge that the outcome couldn't be known without doing it, due to a lack of data. Gambling sounds like your drunken mate slapping his last fiver on a 99-1 chance at the dogs because some bloke at the bar knew the owner's cousin's cleaner. Sort of.
As a former scientist my instinct would be to stick to the tested regimes as we had the data but given the circumstances I can see why a different decision was made.
If I was a political advisor I'd have pointed out that changing the schedule had a large chance of reinforcing the view that this government are clueless numptys.
If it were me I'd take it no matter the gap as some immunity is better than none - worst case scenario is reduced symptoms.
As a former scientist my instinct would be to stick to the tested regimes as we had the data but given the circumstances I can see why a different decision was made.
If I was a political advisor I'd have pointed out that changing the schedule had a large chance of reinforcing the view that this government are clueless numptys.
If it were me I'd take it no matter the gap as some immunity is better than none - worst case scenario is reduced symptoms.
“Assist with national distribution” seems to mean “help vaccinate their staff”. Which is good, I guess. But clearly motivated by their bottom line.
Out of interest, are they going to be running this like a clinical trial? As in, are they committed to collecting data on everyone vaccinated on this different schedule? Did they sign you up to any kind of observational study? They should have.
There's a video interview from Taiwan saying they didn't believe China and acted accordingly.
China could say it was dark at night and Taiwan would think they were pulling a fast one.
The point is that Taiwan and other countries like Australia, South Korean, Singapore and New Zealand had enough information to act in time, so trying to say the rest of the world wouldn't have had a pandemic if only the WHO had said something more definitive and/or earlier isn't true. Most countries chose not to lock down despite the evidence and wouldn't have done any different no matter what the WHO said because they weren't even listening to their own scientists. I'm not claiming that the WHO are perfect. Far from it. But to lay the blame for the pandemic at their feet is just unsupportable.
Did NZ, Australia or Singapore implement any measure in Dec 2019? The clarification from Taiwan CDC clear states that they are not satisfied with the responses from China and WHO, this is fact not fantasy.
https://www.cdc.gov.tw/En/Bulletin/Detail/PAD-lbwDHeN_bLa-viBOuw?typeid=158
I'm not talking about when each country implemented anything necessarily. I'm saying that WHO's response was not the reason countries did not react.
And in any case Taiwan didn't shut their borders to non-citizens until 19th March, even though they did some screening for high temperature of passengers from China before then (which is close to useless). The same day as NZ and one day before Australia did. So like everyone else they suspected it was capable of being transmitted person to person but only reacted when the true seriousness of it became apparent. The WHO had the same concerns no doubt. Call something as a potential pandemic too early, risking an unnecessary worldwide panic and economic shutdown, and that would do far more damage to the trust in the institution.
One of the reasons why governments didn't listen to their own scientists is that WHO was a photocopying machine of China and kept providing a false sense of security to the world. They ignored the threat of the virus and recommended against a travelling ban till late January, missing the best shot to contain the virus and limit the spread as much as possible. After this point, the virus has already been spread all over the world (e.g. Italy) and any effort is nothing more than damage limitation.
Like I said in my earlier post, I totally agree some countries are doing the damage limitation better than others. My Taiwan example is not to show their success in combating the pandemic (so NZ, Australia, Singapore are irrelevant), but to contrast the incompetence of WHO. They suspected, knew and warned about the human-to-human transmission much earlier, and their experts had their investigation in Wuhan in early stage. WHO, on the other hand, sent their team to China only in last week.
To be honest I'm not trying to defend any government, especially when I have no idea about what's happening in the west. What triggers me is how WHO complains about moral failure, when they themselves are the major culprit of the mess in the first place.
Taiwan did react well and early partly based on suspicion of China but largely based on past experience with other viruses. The WHO is far from perfect and with hindsight they could have reacted better but we can't lay the pandemic at their door and we can't ignore important and correct things they say based on a negative opinions of them. They are spot on with their view about developing nations access to vaccines.
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Not hard to disagree with that. The WHO spent critical days and weeks at the beginning refusing to admit the seriousness of it, and many countries followed their advice. It took until 11 March for them to declare a pandemic, by which time it was ripping through Europe, the Middle East and Asia, and well underway in the US.
They'll be lucky if they leave this whole thing with any credibility left. At best they'll be seen as another UN but i expect there will be some changes brought about in the aftermath.
The Pfizer vaccine manufacturer scientists advise against the UK strategy. So if we got it wrong it will be down to the UK making yet more mistakes, just so the government can shout a larger number of people vaccinated in the media. E.g "3 million have had their first jab"
Yet the latest real world studies in Israel show that effectiveness after the first jab is closer to 31% which undermines the UKs gamble. There is still more data to come.
This is not only a public health to a pandemic internationally. This is quite a gamble from the UK. How many other countries are increasing the gap between jabs as far apart as the UK?
Denmark have gone down that route. USA & Germany considering it as well.
If that data is true then maintaining the gap is obviously more important than anyone would have guessed but 31% does seem rather low. Not saying it is wrong but you wouldn't expect such low effectiveness.
That's why I feel it's more than fair and reasonable to say the WHO is the major culprit responsible for the pandemic. From what I see, it has already become a heavily corrupted organization and it speaks for whoever donates more. For you it may look a hindsight, but in Hong Kong we shared the same suspicion as Taiwan and we demanded to close the border against Wuhan in very early stage. Yet our Chief Executive refused and took the BS advice from the WHO.
I believe this is due to a number of people contracting the virus straight after getting the jab (before it reaches high levels of efficacy). A bit misleading to say the least