To this day I still believe City only show interest in Alexis and Fred just to play mind-games with Mourinho and WoodwardLooks like Mourinho never properly watched him
Why the heck #OLEOUT is trending again?
- Thread starter meamth
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Not at all. It means we done worse than we did last season and LVG was sacked on the same basis
Aye another sack thread. Excellent. What the main Forum needs.
No doubt all the usual heads in creaming in.
No doubt all the usual heads in creaming in.
I don't watch too many PL matches outside of United, but watching City yesterday it was evident the gulf in class between us and them. A key component of that is of course the money they have spent and the sheer quality of the players. However, there is a massive difference in the quality of the movement & coaching.
If we are to challenge and actually win the league title, we need to aspire to reach those levels. Is Ole the right man to take us there? With the current evidence it is likely he is not. He has definitely got us headed in the right direction but there are huge question marks on his ability to ever cross the hurdle to a title challenging team. The question is then should we continue to persist with him or part ways at the end of the season? It's not an easy decision to my mind because of a lack of obvious candidates. I think we would have to wait till 2022 and if we do not see any progress to the next level (title challengers), we should aim to replace Ole with the likes of Nagelsmann/ whichever top manager is available then .
If we are to challenge and actually win the league title, we need to aspire to reach those levels. Is Ole the right man to take us there? With the current evidence it is likely he is not. He has definitely got us headed in the right direction but there are huge question marks on his ability to ever cross the hurdle to a title challenging team. The question is then should we continue to persist with him or part ways at the end of the season? It's not an easy decision to my mind because of a lack of obvious candidates. I think we would have to wait till 2022 and if we do not see any progress to the next level (title challengers), we should aim to replace Ole with the likes of Nagelsmann/ whichever top manager is available then .
Yep. I can understand how you can defend Ole if you only watch the results, even though I don't think he has done anything special at all. However, I can't understand how you can watch us play and think "yeah, we will become great".
Why are you shocked Pogue?
Et tu Bilbo!
That poster said himself he doesn’t watch many matches outside United but city looked better coached and moved better or whatever in the one game he watched m.
Ok if we’re basing it on not many games I’ve seen about 3 of nagelsmanns and apart from his team running around like mad men for the first twenty minutes there’s nothing there! Defensive shambles, passing around the back slow as shit when losing because they’re out of ideas, the manager shrinking on the bench when he’s losing.
so, following that and if were only basing our decisions off one or two games I’d like to ask you, who would you like to see replace Ole and how much of this manager have you actually seen? Not goal highlights but sat and watched full matches
To be fair, you only need to watch City and United once to see what a fecking genius Pep is with his coaching.
Are you arguing that aint the case?
I’m not arguing that’s the case, I’m arguing that if we can base opinions off one game then the games I’ve seen of nagelsmann have been shocking, I wondered who the person I quoted wanted to replace Ole and how many matches he’s seen of said coach.
also I can pick you out some city games where they look shocking so I guess it is fair to suggest you need to watch more than one game
but you just part quote me, that’s fine
To clarify I never said that I was basing my opinion on just one match. I have watched city play atleast 6 times this season including the 2 matches against us. And I have not missed one United match this season.
Even in our two head to head matches, even though they were tight affairs and neither team did enough to win, it was quite clear that City's build up play and the ease with which they progressed up the field was at a completely different level to our play. In most matches, we struggle to progress our play quickly, taking endless touches between the CBs before we are able to find a way through.
To the second point you raised, I concur that it is not quite obvious who will take us to the next level. That's why Ole gets the benefit of the doubt and gets to continue his job. Hypothetically speaking, if a Pep or a Klopp was available then Ole would not have done a good enough job to retain his current role. We are currently facing a dearth of top managers unlike the late 90s and early 00s where you had the likes of Fergie, Wenger, Ancelotti, Del Bosque, Capello, Lippi, LVG all active and operating at their peak.
I’m being a bit of a dick tbf. It’s just that you’ve been much more patient than most so was interesting to see that even you would want him gone if we finish 5th. I’m fully in agreemeent, by the way.
Also Bilbo is so close to Brute, it was an open goal.
Or, it's clear regression and he would absolutely deserve to go.
Fair post and I didn’t mean to dig you out, it was more taking that post an example that people could be basing their ideas of perfectness off not much of a sample size. That’s why I followed it up with the question to the poster who would he like to replace Ole and how much has he seen of him.
I watch a lot of premier league football, and honestly hardly any foreign leagues, (I used to watch la liga before sky lost it) so all I see full games of these managers talked about are in the champions league and that’s not enough in my opinion to get a fair representation of how a team sets up and regularly plays against different opposition, plus the one or two games I’ve seen of how certain suggestions play I’m not overly impressed to be honest.
I’m curious as to how much people so vehemently wanting Ole replaced have seen of his suggested replacement with their own eyes and not just repeating what’s been said about so and so with less budget or
so and so with patterns of play or taking stats from different leagues.
The likes of @mazhar13 and @Adnan are a fountain of knowledge on foreign leagues, players and managers. If you wanted a good synopsis on a foreign manager then these guys are good. @VP89 is a good shout too and I'm sure there are others. Like you, I watch a very limited amount of football outisde of the PL/CL these days, so I prefer to go to posters who have the knowledge.
In fairness, I'm sure plenty of others have good knowledge too. Some just like to dismiss other managers as 'hipsters' or whatever out of pure ignorance, because they themselves know nothing about them and don't wish to be educated. Just because I don't have as much time these days to watch foreign leagues, doesn't mean plenty of others don't. On the flipside, I'm sure there's posters who have zero insignt into the likes of Naglesmann etc. and piggyback off of other's opinions. Suppose it's a balancing act, but if you have a real desire to learn more about any of the highly rated managers out there, the posters to offer the insight are easy to find.
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Haha. Fair play. I am patient, but its always been supported by the progress. I just don't see any way that he could survive if we weren't playing CL next season. The club would have to have a TON of faith in the project to overlook such a setback.
I have put these in the defence and attack threads but thought it was actually quite interesting seeing them together. We have had two freak results this season (Losing 6-1 to Tottenham, and winning 9-0 against Southampton) - What will our season look like if you ignore these games?
Attack (Last season: 66 scored)
50 goals scored - 24 played - Average: 2.08 (Over 38 games: 79 goals scored)
Removal of freak result (Southampton game treated as not played)
41 goals scored - 23 played - Average: 1.78 (Over 38 games: 67 goals scored)
Defence (Last season: 36 conceded)
31 goals conceded - 24 played - Average: 1.29 (Over 38 games: 49 goals conceded)
Removal of freak result (Tottenham game treated as not played)
25 goals conceded - 23 played - Average: 1.09 (Over 38 games: 41 goals conceded)
When you remove the two freak results, our attacking output looks far worse and our defence looks quite a bit better.
On average we are barely scoring more per game than we did last season (67 goals expected to 66 last season).
Despite our defence being better than it is with the freak result, the defence is still conceding more per game than last season. (41 concessions expected to 36 last season)
So, how much have we actually improved?
Attack (Last season: 66 scored)
50 goals scored - 24 played - Average: 2.08 (Over 38 games: 79 goals scored)
Removal of freak result (Southampton game treated as not played)
41 goals scored - 23 played - Average: 1.78 (Over 38 games: 67 goals scored)
Defence (Last season: 36 conceded)
31 goals conceded - 24 played - Average: 1.29 (Over 38 games: 49 goals conceded)
Removal of freak result (Tottenham game treated as not played)
25 goals conceded - 23 played - Average: 1.09 (Over 38 games: 41 goals conceded)
When you remove the two freak results, our attacking output looks far worse and our defence looks quite a bit better.
On average we are barely scoring more per game than we did last season (67 goals expected to 66 last season).
Despite our defence being better than it is with the freak result, the defence is still conceding more per game than last season. (41 concessions expected to 36 last season)
So, how much have we actually improved?
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Thank you!
After matchday 24 of last season we were 5th in the table on 34 points GD: +7
After matchday 24 of this season we are 2nd in the table on 46 points GD: +19
That's how much we have actually improved.
If we had 34 points this season we'd be level with Arsenal and would have little to no hope of top 4 finish.
Yet, we went on to concede less on average than we have this season, with and without the freak result. We are also on course to be even with the goal-scoring averages of last season, without the freak result.
This means our performances and results have plummeted since the second half of last season, despite further investment. I wasn't expecting us to keep that pace because it was unsustainable, however, the drop off has been huge. Whilst we are better than the first half (mainly due to Fernandes), we are miles off the second half.
The current stats on the face of it seem to be papering over reality a bit. Top scorers, maybe, but take away one result and it makes our season look considerably different. I think we are very susceptible, at the moment.
To the op - probably for the same reason #OLEIN was trending for a couple of months? That is, results and performance levels.
I have to say i've completely checked out whilst Ole is still manager. When we went first a while back, and we saw his immediate attempts to downplay the expectations, that showed me everything. He's caused this current slump imo. I strongly believe that he doesn't truly believe he can win a title, and apart from a select few like Bruno, Cavani & Pogba, neither do any of the players either.
I get the impression they are very happy right now at just being top 4, without the pressures of actually challenging. We used to laugh at Arsenal years ago, but from the top down, we've become a club full of bottlers ourselves. And it actually makes me sick to ever fathom supporting that.
I get the impression they are very happy right now at just being top 4, without the pressures of actually challenging. We used to laugh at Arsenal years ago, but from the top down, we've become a club full of bottlers ourselves. And it actually makes me sick to ever fathom supporting that.
You mention that your stats are papering over reality, but what you see below IS reality
After matchday 24 of last season we were 5th in the table on 34 points GD: +7
After matchday 24 of this season we are 2nd in the table on 46 points GD: +19
I think you are relying slightly too heavily on goal difference here, and not enough on actual points gained. I believe we were trending at or around 2nd in the table for the latter half of last season, and we are also trending 2nd for almost 2/3rds of this season, so we are pretty consistent relative to the rest of this league.
The difference being that we have been winning quite a few games by a single goal, and last season we had a good 6 game run after restart where we won by 3 clear goals. That's a +18 GD right there, and alongside you ignoring our best win of this season its clearly going to impact the statistics you are using.
Sorry but this is ridiculous. Every manager downplays his sides chances of winning the title after 20 matches.
Come on Bilbo, that doesn't tell the full story mate.
We had a horrific horrific start to last season, sackable levels of horrific at most, if not all top clubs in the World. Not entirely sure we should be giving anyone so much credit for making us 12 points better than "sackable".
The real improvement will be seen by the end of the season, because our 2nd half of last season evened out that horrific start. Let's see where we are in a few months, this gives me hope: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/
Are our players really that inferior to City's though? I dont believe so. City's are just miles better coached and, it seems to me, motivated.I absolutely agree we need a center back and a quality striker.At the very least.
I wasn't really claiming to be telling the full story. I was responding to a claim that we haven't improved. 12 points better than this stage last season is obviously an improvement.
If the question was 'have we improved on our post restart form of last season' then my answer would be different. I don't think we have improved or regressed really, which shouldn't come as that much of a surprise since our summer business hasn't really added anything to our best XI. Donny and Telles have been bit-part and while Cavani has undoubtedly given us something new, he isn't able to start games regularly.
As you say in bold, lets see where we end up. This season could still go disastrously wrong, but personally I would still fancy us to secure 2nd place.
Probably Duncan Castles starting it, listening to his constant slagging of Ole on his daft "according to our sources (we made up)" podcast.
Yes they are in key areas which allows a much more attack minded approach to the game
Pep a amazing coach not doubt about it but he been out coached a few times by Ole in games. Must be our superior players then only reason we get results against them, as it can't be the miles behind coaching that people are saying.
hahahahaha nobody was up for ignoring the tottenham game before we won 9-0 and now seems really reasonable to ignore 'freak games'
Car-crash of a post.
It's like a drama class in here at times.
Well, it is pretty normal with statistical data to ignore anomalies. It is still crap and good, relatively, but it is not great for seeing patterns.
To be fair, what I asked was 'So, how much have we actually improved?' I didn't say we have not improved; I was questioning how much we have improved.
I'm sure the club is gutted to lose you
Fair enough. I've been dragged down to the point where I automatically assume every post on here is coming from a negative slant. Apologies if not.
As I said to RAB, I dont think we have progressed or regressed from our post restart form. We are still a very difficult team to beat.
Its night and day though compared to the team/squad that started last season though
Yeah he just missed a 4-0 away win in Europe. ShameI'm sure the club is gutted to lose you
It's a crazy way to be.
12 points at this stage of the season from previous season.
You can analyze every goal scored and conceded to find whataboutism's. Results matter and those say: 12 points better after 24 gameweeks.
I don't really get negative over football. If find it boring, I just stop watching as I did midway through Van Gaal's second season.
We are better to watch (more often than not) than recent seasons which is the whole point, to be honest. Games against the top teams have been lacking in entertainment, though. Liverpool FA Cup was good, however.
I think we have fallen behind the second half of last season, but that was unsustainable. I think we won all but 1 or 2 matches or something like that, and those were draws. That is pretty much City 17/18 form.
I just think we have quite a long way to go to reach Man City.