lawliet354
Full Member
To this day I still believe City only show interest in Alexis and Fred just to play mind-games with Mourinho and WoodwardLooks like Mourinho never properly watched him
To this day I still believe City only show interest in Alexis and Fred just to play mind-games with Mourinho and WoodwardLooks like Mourinho never properly watched him
Not at all. It means we done worse than we did last season and LVG was sacked on the same basisIf we finish outside the top 4 this season, and he was sacked. Would that be deemed controversial or unfair to everyone?
Yep. I can understand how you can defend Ole if you only watch the results, even though I don't think he has done anything special at all. However, I can't understand how you can watch us play and think "yeah, we will become great".I don't watch too many PL matches outside of United, but watching City yesterday it was evident the gulf in class between us and them. A key component of that is of course the money they have spent and the sheer quality of the players. However, there is a massive difference in the quality of the movement & coaching.
If we are to challenge and actually win the league title, we need to aspire to reach those levels. Is Ole the right man to take us there? With the current evidence it is likely he is not. He has definitely got us headed in the right direction but there are huge question marks on his ability to ever cross the hurdle to a title challenging team. The question is then should we continue to persist with him or part ways at the end of the season? It's not an easy decision to my mind because of a lack of obvious candidates. I think we would have to wait till 2022 and if we do not see any progress to the next level (title challengers), we should aim to replace Ole with the likes of Nagelsmann/ whichever top manager is available then .
Why are you shocked Pogue?
Et tu Bilbo!
That poster said himself he doesn’t watch many matches outside United but city looked better coached and moved better or whatever in the one game he watched m.Yep. I can understand how you can defend Ole if you only watch the results, even though I don't think he has done anything special at all. However, I can't understand how you can watch us play and think "yeah, we will become great".
To be fair, you only need to watch City and United once to see what a fecking genius Pep is with his coaching.That poster said himself he doesn’t watch many matches outside United but city looked better coached and moved better or whatever in the one game he watched.
I’m not arguing that’s the case, I’m arguing that if we can base opinions off one game then the games I’ve seen of nagelsmann have been shocking, I wondered who the person I quoted wanted to replace Ole and how many matches he’s seen of said coach.To be fair, you only need to watch City and United once to see what a fecking genius Pep is with his coaching.
Are you arguing that aint the case?
To clarify I never said that I was basing my opinion on just one match. I have watched city play atleast 6 times this season including the 2 matches against us. And I have not missed one United match this season.That poster said himself he doesn’t watch many matches outside United but city looked better coached and moved better or whatever in the one game he watched m.
Ok if we’re basing it on not many games I’ve seen about 3 of nagelsmanns and apart from his team running around like mad men for the first twenty minutes there’s nothing there! Defensive shambles, passing around the back slow as shit when losing because they’re out of ideas, the manager shrinking on the bench when he’s losing.
so, following that and if were only basing our decisions off one or two games I’d like to ask you, who would you like to see replace Ole and how much of this manager have you actually seen? Not goal highlights but sat and watched full matches
I’m being a bit of a dick tbf. It’s just that you’ve been much more patient than most so was interesting to see that even you would want him gone if we finish 5th. I’m fully in agreemeent, by the way.Why are you shocked Pogue?
Or, it's clear regression and he would absolutely deserve to go.It’s the only performance indicator the owners care about, so that’s what would most likely happen
Fair post and I didn’t mean to dig you out, it was more taking that post an example that people could be basing their ideas of perfectness off not much of a sample size. That’s why I followed it up with the question to the poster who would he like to replace Ole and how much has he seen of him.To clarify I never said that I was basing my opinion on just one match. I have watched city play atleast 6 times this season including the 2 matches against us. And I have not missed one United match this season.
Even in our two head to head matches, even though they were tight affairs and neither team did enough to win, it was quite clear that City's build up play and the ease with which they progressed up the field was at a completely different level to our play. In most matches, we struggle to progress our play quickly, taking endless touches between the CBs before we are able to find a way through.
To the second point you raised, I concur that it is not quite obvious who will take us to the next level. That's why Ole gets the benefit of the doubt and gets to continue his job. Hypothetically speaking, if a Pep or a Klopp was available then Ole would not have done a good enough job to retain his current role. We are currently facing a dearth of top managers unlike the late 90s and early 00s where you had the likes of Fergie, Wenger, Ancelotti, Del Bosque, Capello, Lippi, LVG all active and operating at their peak.
The likes of @mazhar13 and @Adnan are a fountain of knowledge on foreign leagues, players and managers. If you wanted a good synopsis on a foreign manager then these guys are good. @VP89 is a good shout too and I'm sure there are others. Like you, I watch a very limited amount of football outisde of the PL/CL these days, so I prefer to go to posters who have the knowledge.Fair post and I didn’t mean to dig you out, it was more taking that post an example that people could be basing their ideas of perfectness off not much of a sample size. That’s why I followed it up with the question to the poster who would he like to replace Ole and how much has he seen of him.
I watch a lot of premier league football, and honestly hardly any foreign leagues, (I used to watch la liga before sky lost it) so all I see full games of these managers talked about are in the champions league and that’s not enough in my opinion to get a fair representation of how a team sets up and regularly plays against different opposition, plus the one or two games I’ve seen of how certain suggestions play I’m not overly impressed to be honest.
I’m curious as to how much people so vehemently wanting Ole replaced have seen of his suggested replacement with their own eyes and not just repeating what’s been said about so and so with less budget or
so and so with patterns of play or taking stats from different leagues.
Haha. Fair play. I am patient, but its always been supported by the progress. I just don't see any way that he could survive if we weren't playing CL next season. The club would have to have a TON of faith in the project to overlook such a setback.I’m being a bit of a dick tbf. It’s just that you’ve been much more patient than most so was interesting to see that even you would want him gone if we finish 5th. I’m fully in agreemeent, by the way.
Also Bilbo is so close to Brute, it was an open goal.
Thank you!We have only lost 4 of our last 38 games.
Those 38 games would total 88-points.
We haven't been beaten away from home in 13-months.
We are second in the current league; only behind a team that has been together for years and is settled and mature.
We have the youngest squad out of the "top six" by a full 2 years. We have the second youngest squad in the whole league.
We have signed - in the past 18-months - the hottest young teens from all around the world; from Italy, from Real Madrid, from Barcelona, from South America etc...
Our three strikers (av, age 22) were the best performing strikers in the whole of the Premier League last season.
We are ahead of schedule 2.5 years into a 5 year plan.
...but eh.. yeah, we only drew away to West Brom on Sunday... so eh... better sack the manager and start all over again....
After matchday 24 of last season we were 5th in the table on 34 points GD: +7I have put these in the defence and attack threads but thought it was actually quite interesting seeing them together. We have had two freak results this season (Losing 6-1 to Tottenham, and winning 9-0 against Southampton) - What will our season look like if you ignore these games?
Attack (Last season: 66 scored)
50 goals scored - 24 played - Average: 2.08 (Over 38 games: 79 goals scored)
Removal of freak result (Southampton game treated as not played)
41 goals scored - 23 played - Average: 1.78 (Over 38 games: 67 goals scored)
Defence (Last season: 36 conceded)
31 goals conceded - 24 played - Average: 1.29 (Over 38 games: 49 goals conceded)
Removal of freak result (Tottenham game treated as not played)
25 goals conceded - 23 played - Average: 1.09 (Over 38 games: 41 goals conceded)
When you remove the two freak results, our attacking output looks far worse and our defence looks quite a bit better.
On average we are barely scoring more per game than we did last season (67 goals expected to 66 last season).
Despite our defence being better than it is with the freak result, the defence is still conceding more per game than last season. (41 concessions expected to 36 last season)
So, how much have we actually improved?
Yet, we went on to concede less on average than we have this season, with and without the freak result. We are also on course to be even with the goal-scoring averages of last season, without the freak result.After matchday 24 of last season we were 5th in the table on 34 points GD: +7
After matchday 24 of this season we are 2nd in the table on 46 points GD: +19
That's how much we have actually improved.
If we had 34 points this season we'd be level with Arsenal and would have little to no hope of top 4 finish.
You mention that your stats are papering over reality, but what you see below IS realityYet, we went on to concede less on average than we have this season, with and without the freak result. We are also on course to be even with the goal-scoring averages of last season, without the freak result.
This means our performances and results have plummeted since the second half of last season, despite further investment. I wasn't expecting us to keep that pace because it was unsustainable, however, the drop off has been huge. Whilst we are better than the first half (mainly due to Fernandes), we are miles off the second half.
The current stats on the face of it seem to be papering over reality a bit. Top scorers, maybe, but take away one result and it makes our season look considerably different. I think we are very susceptible, at the moment.
Sorry but this is ridiculous. Every manager downplays his sides chances of winning the title after 20 matches.I have to say i've completely checked out whilst Ole is still manager. When we went first a while back, and we saw his immediate attempts to downplay the expectations, that showed me everything. He's caused this current slump imo
Come on Bilbo, that doesn't tell the full story mate.After matchday 24 of last season we were 5th in the table on 34 points GD: +7
After matchday 24 of this season we are 2nd in the table on 46 points GD: +19
That's how much we have actually improved.
If we had 34 points this season we'd be level with Arsenal and would have little to no hope of top 4 finish.
Are our players really that inferior to City's though? I dont believe so. City's are just miles better coached and, it seems to me, motivated.I absolutely agree we need a center back and a quality striker.At the very least.yip but we don’t have the players city have
They also have probably the best manager at the moment
Need a get a grip of reality some people in here.
It was always about cementing CL place rather than luckily being gifted it like last year
he’s got one season left for me after this one, we need 2 star players to come in and lft this team, a commanding CB and a striker to lead the line.
Get those in and if he can’t mount a challenge then maybe we need a new direction but right now he’s doing a good job, can’t be denied
I wasn't really claiming to be telling the full story. I was responding to a claim that we haven't improved. 12 points better than this stage last season is obviously an improvement.Come on Bilbo, that doesn't tell the full story mate.
We had a horrific horrific start to last season, sackable levels of horrific at most, if not all top clubs in the World. Not entirely sure we should be giving anyone so much credit for making us 12 points better than "sackable".
The real improvement will be seen by the end of the season, because our 2nd half of last season evened out that horrific start. Let's see where we are in a few months, this gives me hope: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/
Yes they are in key areas which allows a much more attack minded approach to the gameAre our players really that inferior to City's though? I dont believe so. City's are just miles better coached and, it seems to me, motivated.I absolutely agree we need a center back and a quality striker.At the very least.
Yes they are in key areas which allows a much more attack minded approach to the game
hahahahaha nobody was up for ignoring the tottenham game before we won 9-0 and now seems really reasonable to ignore 'freak games'I have put these in the defence and attack threads but thought it was actually quite interesting seeing them together. We have had two freak results this season (Losing 6-1 to Tottenham, and winning 9-0 against Southampton) - What will our season look like if you ignore these games?
Attack (Last season: 66 scored)
50 goals scored - 24 played - Average: 2.08 (Over 38 games: 79 goals scored)
Removal of freak result (Southampton game treated as not played)
41 goals scored - 23 played - Average: 1.78 (Over 38 games: 67 goals scored)
Defence (Last season: 36 conceded)
31 goals conceded - 24 played - Average: 1.29 (Over 38 games: 49 goals conceded)
Removal of freak result (Tottenham game treated as not played)
25 goals conceded - 23 played - Average: 1.09 (Over 38 games: 41 goals conceded)
When you remove the two freak results, our attacking output looks far worse and our defence looks quite a bit better.
On average we are barely scoring more per game than we did last season (67 goals expected to 66 last season).
Despite our defence being better than it is with the freak result, the defence is still conceding more per game than last season. (41 concessions expected to 36 last season)
So, how much have we actually improved?
Car-crash of a post.I have to say i've completely checked out whilst Ole is still manager. When we went first a while back, and we saw his immediate attempts to downplay the expectations, that showed me everything. He's caused this current slump imo. I strongly believe that he doesn't truly believe he can win a title, and apart from a select few like Bruno, Cavani & Pogba, neither do any of the players either.
I get the impression they are very happy right now at just being top 4, without the pressures of actually challenging. We used to laugh at Arsenal years ago, but from the top down, we've become a club full of bottlers ourselves. And it actually makes me sick to ever fathom supporting that.
Well, it is pretty normal with statistical data to ignore anomalies. It is still crap and good, relatively, but it is not great for seeing patterns.hahahahaha nobody was up for ignoring the tottenham game before we won 9-0 and now seems really reasonable to ignore 'freak games'
To be fair, what I asked was 'So, how much have we actually improved?' I didn't say we have not improved; I was questioning how much we have improved.I wasn't really claiming to be telling the full story. I was responding to a claim that we haven't improved. 12 points better than this stage last season is obviously an improvement.
If the question was 'have we improved on our post restart form of last season' then my answer would be different. I don't think we have improved or regressed really, which shouldn't come as that much of a surprise since our summer business hasn't really added anything to our best XI. Donny and Telles have been bit-part and while Cavani has undoubtedly given us something new, he isn't able to start games regularly.
As you say in bold, lets see where we end up. This season could still go disastrously wrong, but personally I would still fancy us to secure 2nd place.
I'm sure the club is gutted to lose youI have to say i've completely checked out whilst Ole is still manager. When we went first a while back, and we saw his immediate attempts to downplay the expectations, that showed me everything. He's caused this current slump imo. I strongly believe that he doesn't truly believe he can win a title, and apart from a select few like Bruno, Cavani & Pogba, neither do any of the players either.
I get the impression they are very happy right now at just being top 4, without the pressures of actually challenging. We used to laugh at Arsenal years ago, but from the top down, we've become a club full of bottlers ourselves. And it actually makes me sick to ever fathom supporting that.
Fair enough. I've been dragged down to the point where I automatically assume every post on here is coming from a negative slant. Apologies if not.To be fair, what I asked was 'So, how much have we actually improved?' I didn't say we have not improved; I was questioning how much we have improved.
Yeah he just missed a 4-0 away win in Europe. ShameI'm sure the club is gutted to lose you
It's a crazy way to be.Yeah he just missed a 4-0 away win in Europe. Shame
12 points at this stage of the season from previous season.I have put these in the defence and attack threads but thought it was actually quite interesting seeing them together. We have had two freak results this season (Losing 6-1 to Tottenham, and winning 9-0 against Southampton) - What will our season look like if you ignore these games?
Attack (Last season: 66 scored)
50 goals scored - 24 played - Average: 2.08 (Over 38 games: 79 goals scored)
Removal of freak result (Southampton game treated as not played)
41 goals scored - 23 played - Average: 1.78 (Over 38 games: 67 goals scored)
Defence (Last season: 36 conceded)
31 goals conceded - 24 played - Average: 1.29 (Over 38 games: 49 goals conceded)
Removal of freak result (Tottenham game treated as not played)
25 goals conceded - 23 played - Average: 1.09 (Over 38 games: 41 goals conceded)
When you remove the two freak results, our attacking output looks far worse and our defence looks quite a bit better.
On average we are barely scoring more per game than we did last season (67 goals expected to 66 last season).
Despite our defence being better than it is with the freak result, the defence is still conceding more per game than last season. (41 concessions expected to 36 last season)
So, how much have we actually improved?
I don't really get negative over football. If find it boring, I just stop watching as I did midway through Van Gaal's second season.Fair enough. I've been dragged down to the point where I automatically assume every post on here is coming from a negative slant. Apologies if not.
As I said to RAB, I dont think we have progressed or regressed from our post restart form. We are still a very difficult team to beat.
Its night and day though compared to the team/squad that started last season though