You should start reading what I'm saying. I don't care what he did, how young his squad is, and what kind of car he is driving. Totally irrelevant. How many youth players has he given a debut to this season? How many youth players debuted against the mighty Tranmere? Or Luton? Or Watford? You still talk about an agenda, can you even read? I'm starting to worry about that. Regarding the bolded, I have never disagreed with that either. So why are you talking about things I don't even discuss?
Shola Shoretire
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
But why are debuts the important measure? Henderson, Tuanzebe, McTominay, Greenwood, Rashford etc are all academy players contributing.
There haven’t been the usual opportunities to throw a kid into a game and there hasn’t been a huge injury crisis either.
I don’t think any of the kids are particularly ready for first team action.
maybe could have been used but should he have played ahead of Maguire, Lindelof, Tuanzebe or Bailly? It’s highly unusual for a CB that young to get into a top tier clubs first team.
Laird maybe could have been used to give AWB a rest but Brandon Williams has been cover at right back.
Hannibal is behind Van De Beek who can’t get enough games.
Should Elanga get minutes ahead of Mata and Dan James?
I don’t get why people feel the need to over-emphasise Oles commitment to youth (even Fergie wasn’t as good as people claim). However, it’s undeniable to me that a young player has a much better chance and a longer leash than they would have for Guardiola or Mourinho.
Good management isn't about giving a youth player a debut and fecking then back off the u23 after. It means actually integrating them into the first team in matches, not just against Luton, who are a decent Championship team.Anyone who watches youth football will tell you theres a huge difference between pl2 matches and the senior game.
You seem to be living in a land where giving a player a 1 off game suddenly makes you a great youth manager, or a player making a good debut means he will make it(even a good debut vs premier league sides). Under that logic is Jose a great youth manager for that game vs Crystal Palace and Josh Harrop must be a world beater by now? As for claiming players wouldn't be under pressure or written off? It's ironic you have been claiming that in this thread where less than a month ago posters where writing off Shoretire based on a handful if u23 games as a 16 year old.
A fair question and a fair post. Thank you. I think that in games such as Tranmere (look at the team he put out) he should have played one or two youth players. I think it's really important, because of the ethos of the club but also so that they feel that they have the chance. And yes, I would play Elanga before James against teams that sit deep. Manchester United can not be a sentimental club, Juan Mata doesn't have a future here. Why should he play games, if he doesn't have a future and if not deemed good enough? And it's not like I demand much. Look at the Watford game for example. No youth players in the starting eleven or the bench. Instead, he subbed on: Rashford, Martial, Matic, and Maguire. He overplays Maguire (he even started against Tranmere...) instead, he could easily play Mengi in such a game. Many teams do not even try to attack United. Watford and West Ham are two examples of teams that did give up before the game, why not play Elanga against these teams? Or Hannibal? I'm pretty sure they are not worse than James against that opposition. I sometimes feel that Ole just puts out names and hopes for the best, maybe that's why we are extremely dull against Watford and West Ham.
I don't even know what you are saying. Based on what? In what world is that not good giving an academy player a place on the bench? How can it hurt? Regarding the other things, I have never said that it does make you a good manager. And Mourinho gave Harrop a chance, fair enough. He even scored so I don't see it helping you. Rather, that strengthens my case. Harrop was a rather mediocre youth player and he showed that he can produce at that level if given the chance. Nobody thought Rashford would've taken the chance either. And people did not write Shoretire off at all.
If you have the youngest squad, giving more debuts to young players is quite difficult though isn't it, even if you had kids who were good enough.
And you haven't named any who are ready for a few minutes apart from Hannibal (kicked on recently and got injured), Shoretire (on the bench in the last game) and Diallo (made his debut). Mengi, Pellistri and Laird aren't ready which is why they're on loan, Galbraith is ok but very unlikely to make it at Man Utd, Elanga has been injured half the season. Hugill is great but he's not ready for the first team just yet, he might look massive but he's still very young and has plenty of room for development in the reserves.
So yeah, not sure I'd have done a single thing differently as regards the young players. If they're good enough they'll earn their debuts, as Laird seems to be doing at MK Dons right now tbf (although I think he actually got a few first team minutes at some point before?). You can't expect to have 3 or 4 debuts every season unless you don't expect the youngsters to have to work for them.
Fair point, but I think it's equally important to always integrate youngsters and let them get a taste. As I have said, I would rather play Hannibal or Elanga against teams that sit deep than James. And it doesn't hurt having them on the bench. We had four defenders against WBA on the bench, what's the point? If Fergie needed a goal, he would have put Hugill on. Not Bailly.
So you want to randomly throw out debuts to young players who won't make it here? An interesting tactic.
Possibly. Didn't do Macheda much good in the long run. It was worth it because we won a title of course but unfortunately we're not in a real title race this season, ironically quite possibly because our squad is too inexperienced.
Quite possibly because our manager isn't good enough (among other things).
Ole regularly throws out players on the pitch that won't make it here either, so I guess it's even. (That wasn't what I was saying either, I'll eat my hat if Hannibal doesn't become a better player than James).
Possibly not quite possibly. The fact is LVG wasn't good enough. Moyes. Jose weren't good enough. But Oles got the dressing room and it's up to the defenders to defend properly. Sir Alex did the same. LVG did the same. It happens that not everyone makes it.
Great. He's injured and he's only just started to become mature enough to handle the mental side of the game at first team level. When he's not injured he'll get a chance. Throwing him in against Tranmere when he wasn't ready would not have helped his development.
And the manager may not be good enough, I think it's irrelevant to the fact that we're getting wiped by an extremely experienced City squad. Throwing more young players into our squad would not make anything better. Your dislike of James and Ole is completely irrelevant to how the young players should be developed.
Actually it was Martial that got injured in the warm up.
Will Keane's bad luck got him injured the cup game we had before, when he should have scored, hit the post and raptured the ligament or something of the sort.
Such a shame about Keane, he really was top class
You have to be on a wind up at this point. Nobody is this stupid deliberately.
Great argument. Where am I wrong? I thought so. Reported btw.
I think the impression that you have an agenda comes off the fact that you say you only have one question - why Solskjær have not given more debuts this year - and when you have answers for that, you throw in a lot of arguments about other things yourself. That’s how it appears to me, anyway.
To answer that question as straight as possible, I’d say it’s multiple factors working towards that end:
- A large squad, many players need game time to keep the spirit of the group good, and to be more ready for games when injury or rotation calls for it.
- Relations is a key factor in Solskjærs strategy, so the first choice combos (ie Shaw-Rashford) need enough games together to gel, and then second choice combos also need games to gel (ie Shaw-Martial, Shaw-James, Telles-Rashford, Telles-Martial etc). Relations startegy ahead of Fixed movement patterns is more flexible for the tougher games, but more vulnerable to rotation needs.
- The group is already quite young, with several of the attacking key players young for a key player - Rashford, Martial, Greenwood (Yes, Martial is 25, but alas doesn’t seem a mature type, so I guess that counts in). The balance between young age and experience is important.
- Young/inexperienced players like Greenwood, James, Tuanzebe and Williams are way ahead of Garner, Laird, Levitt, Mengi in terms of readiness for PL games, as proven in cameos, in u23games and in training (presumably, we don’t know, coaches do), so the latter are sent on loan to develop better. Behind them there is further distance to the 17-year olds like Mejbri, Hugill and Shoretire.
- Rushing debuts often shows to be detrimental or not important. It’s is not necessarily the best development path, and wether it is depends a lot on the situation of the team and a lot on the psychological traits of the player, both which we don’t know but the coaches do.
As regards to Shoretire, whose thread this is, four weeks ago, he was 16 and the majority of his closer followers on the caf (minus dad) were discussing wether he should drop down to u18 or wether it was positive to have him in the u23s. Four weeks later, he is on the bench in Turin, away to Real Sociedad. Someone like me would see that and think, wow, Solskjær does look to bring young players through!
others,or, not many others, spends the next days complaining about a lack of debuts, as ‘only’ one teenager got his debut in that game.
Maybe you don’t have an agenda, in which case it looks to me that you are quite unrealistic about our youth prospects and about what is normally done at other clubs.
Fair post, and you make some good points. As I have stated earlier, the thing I want to see is players getting rewarded. We talk about "not being good enough" then again, is Andreas Pereira good enough? Is Daniel James? I think not. I would rather have played Angel Gomes than Pereira, I said it then and I say it now. I think he is the better player. Why does Ole in general give so many chances to players that don't have a future here? I would rather play Elanga against low blocks than James, because I think he has more to his locker even right now. I also think in general that if we play lower league teams in the League Cup, youngsters should get a chance. Not because Hannibal is much better than Mata right now, but because we are looking at the future. Every team does this, and our previous managers too. My concern is that Ole has almost completely stopped doing this, and this is worrying. Why? Because he pretty much got the job promising to do that, and both he and the board constantly talks about it. They should show it, as they did before. But if we look at the last year, it has been disappointing. It's a good step with Shoretire in the squad, but IMO he should've got on the pitch. And that was all that I said in this thread, and people go bananas because they can't take criticism to Ole. It's really weird. Why would I have an agenda against anyone? Obviously, I want what everyone wants. United to be the best team in the world, and I also want us to give youth a chance since it's in our DNA. I'm disappointed at both RIGHT NOW. Both can change, but right now that's a fact - not an agenda.
Imagine thinking that working with youth is just "giving debuts" ahahahah
Mourinho gave a debut to Angel, then gave him 5 min in some FA cup game 6 months later and that was it. Was he good with youth just because he gave some debuts against Crystal Palace? Did he gave any debuts in his 2 or 3 season?
At least Ole knows young players' names and don't just call them "kids".
Ole could have been a little bit more proactive and risky in that regard but not to the point that you can criticize him regarding this aspect. He clearly cares about Academy. And let's be honest, no one was ready for a debut.
I'm expecting that before end of the season Shola, Hannibal and Elanga will all make their debuts.
Mourinho gave a debut to Angel, then gave him 5 min in some FA cup game 6 months later and that was it. Was he good with youth just because he gave some debuts against Crystal Palace? Did he gave any debuts in his 2 or 3 season?
At least Ole knows young players' names and don't just call them "kids".
Ole could have been a little bit more proactive and risky in that regard but not to the point that you can criticize him regarding this aspect. He clearly cares about Academy. And let's be honest, no one was ready for a debut.
I'm expecting that before end of the season Shola, Hannibal and Elanga will all make their debuts.
Rewarding players who aren't doing what you want them to yet is not a good way to develop them. I really liked Angel Gomes but he just coasted too much, the same problem Pogba had but with slightly less ability. Fergie didn't reward Pogba coasting through games with first team minutes either and he left, that's just how it goes. He went and grafted at Juventus and proved his point, good for him, but Fergie would have done the same thing again 10 times out of 10.
If they're good enough and they're working hard then they're getting chances under Ole, it's as simple as that. Luck and injuries come into it with any young player too, as ever.
Imagine reading all posts and still think that was what I said ahahahahah
All you said was "give debuts to young players to reward them" in "shit cup games" because they are better than "Daniel James" or whoever else.
All this does not matter because nobody was ready.
Elanga literally just played 6 games last season for U-23, not scoring any goals. And you criticize Ole for not giving him a debut against Luton which was literally only second game of this season. Don't you think that you chat utter bolocks?
Again, you can argue that Ole is a little bit conservative in that regard but not to the point that you can criticize him.
Btw, you look more foolish if you think that bringing up Jose would do any favors for your opinion - the man did not give a single feck about academy players.
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It was just an example. He could have played him another time or played another player. Man United should always give the chance to a youngster in a League Cup game, especially as you stand tall about how much you give youngsters a chance.
My two penneth worth...(not worth much more than that!)
I think you have a strong idea of what constitutes youth development and there’s nothing wrong with that, we all do. In my humble opinion, you’re then lining your opinion up against Ole’s and because they’re different, that’s given you your proof that Ole doesn’t develop youth.
You bring up facts regarding who from the youth have debuted this season, how many minutes, who’s on the bench etc and facts are what they are. I’m not going to try and dispute them (mainly because I’m too lazy to check) but they don’t on their own mean that Ole doesn’t develop youth anymore which is what I think you are also saying.
My view is that that Ole and his coaching staff and the U23 and the youth coaching staff don’t think the next batch are quite ready. It’s not so important to them that Mickson from tinternet thinks they’re ready for a spot on the bench but that the people that see them day in, day out do.
For the little it’s worth, I strongly believe that Ole wants to get these kids fast tracked and part of his playing staff as soon as possible. That doesn’t mean just chucking them in though. He has to balance their physical and mental preparedness plus find the balance of youth and experience. As others have said, the squad is already very young and he needs a balance in there to try to win a pot or two for the club too. History says that he absolutely won’t do it by lowering the squad age even further. I certainly don’t think he’s lost his nerve.
I just think we all need to show some patience with this process, as much as I bitch and whine about it to my lads when we’ve had a shite result. I’ve just learnt to separate the two.
I would just say, don’t judge Ole’s intentions for our youth players by your own standards. Have some patience and enjoy the excitement of seeing the next crop slowly integrated into the team. I have faith that Ole hasn’t lost sight of it. Join me out in the ledge my man, the view is wonderful...!
Who said to you that someone was ready for a debut? Or deserved a debut/chance?
There was not ANY standout who 100% should have been given a chance or given a debut. There just was not.
Now, judging on this season you can say that Hannibal/Elanga are close to making their debuts at some point before the season ends.
Exactly.
The easy way out! In that case, Ole should never have played Pereira, he should never have bought James, Fergie should have played Pogba. I can go on and on and on. I trust my own judgment and I stand for what I believe in. Obviously, Ole doesn't agree with me for several reasons we don't know, but we should still be able to discuss it. Worth noting that Rashford never would've got his debut when he did and made that impression if we would have reasoned as Ole does now. Just a thought.
Hard to believe you're arguing in good faith at this point, as you wanted him dropped into the U18s three weeks ago.
If he was on the bench, then I surely want him to come on. I, and the majority, would probably want the same for Neville, Hardley or just any youngster. However, he has been a lot better in the U23 lately. Last two, three games he has been excellent and it was a well-deserved call-up.
It really rankles with me how the media would bring up Pogba to question Sir Alex's decision making in his later years.
Davide Petrucci was more deserving of a first team call up for me at the time of the infamous Blackburn home game when we were hit by injuries.
Pogba would have been a disaster as he was so poor at tracking runners.
Fair enough, and as for your argumentation - I guess you read my opinions and understand that I disagree with you on many concrete counts: I too hoped Angel would play, but I don’t believe he was as even nearly good as Andreas Pereira was at that point in time, and judging by his games in the cups and for Boavista now, he will at best take some years to become as good as Andreas is now, ie, not good enough for United. I don’t think Elanga is close to the level of Danny James yet, and puttinh him on instead of James would likely cost us at this point. I don’t think Hannibal has ever been close to the levels of McT or Van de Beek yet. I think Tuanzebe is alot better than Mengi - yet. So I agree with sending some on loan and blooding others slowly.
I wonder what you think about Gomes and Chong. Should they be at United this season, playing in stead of Van de Beek and James, if you could choose? Or is it good that they are out of the way, leaving space for Amad and Shoretire?
Are they like Andreas and Lingard to you now, or like Hannibal and Shola?
I don’t think anything I’ve said is looking for the easy way out. Arguing individual cases doesn’t however make the point you’ve been flogging over several pages now in a Shola Shoretire thread.
You’re right we should all be able to discuss it although I’m not sure this is the appropriate place. In fact, I’d politely suggest you, or the mods, take it over to Misc Youth or an Ole thread so that this thread isn’t derailed any further.
You have a view on Ole and his youth development and I think it’s fair to say I share Ole’s approach rather than yours. I suppose time will prove one of us right or wrong but you’re entitled to continue with your opinion although I think you’re out on a limb bud. No harm in trusting your own judgement. If you don’t, who will? I just don’t think any coach would approach things the way you have been suggesting. Again, only my view.
With regards to the bolded above, respectfully, it isn’t worth noting. Rashford got into the team under a specific and peculiar set of circumstances which have no bearing on Ole’s approach to youth development. You acknowledged as much yourself in response to someone else earlier.
Anyway, I have nothing else to add to this so let’s agree to disagree and we’ll see how things develop.
Most of the time if someone stops talking to you it’s not because you’re right, it’s because your being wilfully obtuse. Other people carried on the argument for me. Everyone put holes in your argument due to the fact that no youth players have shown enough to be included ahead of other players this season. All reports across the club are that youth players are happy here and see a proper route into the first team. Academy staff have all been highly complimentary of how Ole has placed importance and trust in the academy, something that Jose didn’t do. Ole will give youth a chance when they’re ready. Giving someone a some minutes in a game against Marine isn’t evidence of giving youth a chance and being good with youth. Being good with youth is slowly developing them into first team players.
You point to games where we should have played the youth. Luton - second game of season after no preseason and we had just lost to Crystal Palace. That’s a chance to give players a game to improve fitness. Watford - we played our second string and almost didn’t make it through. Sociedad - was potentially a dangerous tie, putting it to be means he can play some young players. He also brought Shortire to be part of the squad which is experience enough. You could even see him having a debut in the return leg. Playing youth isn’t the only barometer on which a manager should be judged, there are far more things going on behind the scenes and all reports as I have mentioned show that the club, the staff and the players have trust in his ability to continue the United youth culture.
hahahaha, you're kidding right? Have we EVER had players that have scored four against Liverpool, or four against City? And still, it isn't a hole in my argument. All I have said is that Ole doesn't play academy players this season. Is that wrong? No, I thought so. It isn't me or Mourinho who is talking about playing youth, it's Ole and it's Woodward. No one else. And it's not just this season, we could see Ole slowly changing his approach even from last season. He didn't use them against LASK, or Tranmere. If you don't see the difference, then we will never get further here. That's all I have been arguing about, and yet still you keep mumbling about agenda and that I'm wrong.
This. Mickson feels like he's showing a textbook case of internet "sealioning", and not arguing in good faith here. The extremely weird demanding of 'facts', then the total disregarding of them when they are presented. I'm not sure (if he is arguing in good faith) what he might consider a manager that does trust in youth to be, because Ole literally sold a £65 million striker to make way for one.
Edit: and @Sultan , admins, if you agree that people are arguing in bad faith on the forum and that there is even the potential for that to destabilise and annoy our players and their families then there's a potential conversation to be had about people's conduct. Especially if they are simply grandstanding to get a reaction from us OR our players or in this case their family members.
Did you even read my answer to this? Another one who literally doesn't read my posts. Imagine that I care or even has ever argued about something regarding a sale of Lukaku
You are smart! If you are going to write, which I don't think you should, you can at least answer what I'm arguing about. But I try again, maybe I should pin this: I DON'T CARE WHAT OLE HAS DONE BEFORE. I CARE ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. NOW. NOW. THIS YEAR. HE doesn't play youth NOW, that's a FACT. How can you not understand? And the worst part is that you come in like you are a step above me, and the funny thing is that you can't even read what I'm saying. You have no chance here.It isn’t though is it, he absolutely plays youth, just not the youth you want him to play (because he isn’t a loon).
This thread has been almost 100% off-topic since 12:43 last night. Amazing how you lot do it really.
Well, I never thought I had to clarify exactly what I mean in every post. But what I mean and have been arguing about is that he hasn't given any new academy player a chance for a good while, and my post here earlier was a note that he didn't do it now either with Shoretire. It's a fact that people apparently couldn't take. This was my post, and hell broke lose:
And I'm not wrong. Because in the last year, he has been very careful which we can see in the number of new debuts (zero) and also, which I'm not arguing for here, but the numbers have generally dropped compared to earlier under Ole.
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Yes I know that, hence why I said he isn’t playing the ones you want.