Boeing in trouble again

[Foxbatt]

Boeing is in trouble again after FAA grounds 777 with PW4000 engines.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I was watching an NBC news broadcast and they seemed to avoid saying Boeing. Everything was 777.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

At least they're not made by Rolls royce

 

[Ramshock]

Boeing is in trouble again after FAA grounds 777 with PW4000 engines.

Wouldnt it be the engine manufacturer?

 

[NotworkSte]

Wouldnt it be the engine manufacturer?

And engine is chosen by customer.

 

[Foxbatt]

Wouldnt it be the engine manufacturer?

No it's the engine that's fitted when it rolls of the assembly line of Boeing. They themselves don't select the engine as it's done by the customers but almost all 777-200s have the same engines hence the grounding. A lot of long haul flights are done with the 777. It's a very good aircraft especially for the long haul. Personally I prefer the 777 to the 787 for the long haul. I hope they get it sorted out soon. The engines on every aircraft will be inspected now. I mean the PW4000. However I am reading that Japan has grounded all 777.

 

[utdalltheway]

I was watching an NBC news broadcast and they seemed to avoid saying Boeing. Everything was 777.

That’s interesting that they’d do that.

Anyway, seeing the photos of an engine cowling in the yard of a Denver area house was crazy. Lucky Donnie Darko wasn’t around.

 

[adexkola]

Wouldnt it be the engine manufacturer?

Yeah, this one isn't on Boeing. It's on Pratt and Whitney.

Looking at Aviation Herald and r/aviation... Looks like a failure in the fan blade causing the inlet to detach. Good thing is that engines are designed so that if this happens, the debris can be contained within the core until the plane lands.

I imagine they'll force inspection of all similar PW4000s to ensure there are no cracks or other issues. Scenes in Connecticut over the weekend

 

[Sky1981]

What are the odds the ground technician forgot to bolt the actual thing?

as good as a machine gets you can't escape human error.

 

[adexkola]

What are the odds the ground technician forgot to bolt the actual thing?

as good as a machine gets you can't escape human error.

Damned near zero with this kind of engine failure.

 

[berbatrick]

Yeah, this one isn't on Boeing. It's on Pratt and Whitney.

Looking at Aviation Herald and r/aviation... Looks like a failure in the fan blade causing the inlet to detach. Good thing is that engines are designed so that if this happens, the debris can be contained within the core until the plane lands.

I imagine they'll force inspection of all similar PW4000s to ensure there are no cracks or other issues. Scenes in Connecticut over the weekend

Didn't Southwest 737s also have a fan blade issue recently?
Wonder what's causing this. I waste a lot of time looking at plane crash investigations, and while of course aviation is safer now etc, fan blade accidents failures seem to be a new thing?

 

[adexkola]

Didn't Southwest 737s also have a fan blade issue recently?
Wonder what's causing this. I waste a lot of time looking at plane crash investigations, and while of course aviation is safer now etc, fan blade accidents failures seem to be a new thing?

They're harder to design and manufacture because of tighter weight constraints driven by a need to meet emission standards (hence the invention of hollow fan blades, which introduce their own issues like excess vibration). IIRC almost 40% of manufactured fan blades are rejected for not meeting design requirements. Titanium (the material used normally) is hard to machine and on rare occasion, flaws in the metal are missed during inspection. With regular inspection on wing, you catch them before they develop into cracks but 1 or 2 will slip through the cracks (pun not intended) which is why every engine design needs to pass a test that looks like this


Basically, if a fan blade fails because of material flaws or because a stupid bird flew into the engine, you need to show that your engine is capable of staying on wing, remaining compact, and not spewing high energy debris into the fuselage where the passengers are.

Pratt's new geared turbofan runs the fan at a slower speed, so it will be interesting to see whether these incidents continue to occur on it at the same frequency as the older PW4000/GE's CFM which I believe was on the Southwest plane

 

[Buster15]

At least they're not made by Rolls royce

Agree with you about that. RR has more than enough problems to deal with.
Quite honestly I am surprised that the engine remained attached to the wing because the level of vibration looked very high.

 

[Buster15]

They're harder to design and manufacture because of tighter weight constraints driven by a need to meet emission standards (hence the invention of hollow fan blades, which introduce their own issues like excess vibration). IIRC almost 40% of manufactured fan blades are rejected for not meeting design requirements. Titanium (the material used normally) is hard to machine and on rare occasion, flaws in the metal are missed during inspection. With regular inspection on wing, you catch them before they develop into cracks but 1 or 2 will slip through the cracks (pun not intended) which is why every engine design needs to pass a test that looks like this


Basically, if a fan blade fails because of material flaws or because a stupid bird flew into the engine, you need to show that your engine is capable of staying on wing, remaining compact, and not spewing high energy debris into the fuselage where the passengers are.

Pratt's new geared turbofan runs the fan at a slower speed, so it will be interesting to see whether these incidents continue to occur on it at the same frequency as the older PW4000/GE's CFM which I believe was on the Southwest plane

When I looked at the videos, it wasn't obvious that a Fan Blade had failed. The fan looked to be rotating due to windmilling, albeit with a high level of unbalance. And the fire was further back in the turbine.
But let's wait until the NTSB has carried out the investigation.

RR is also developing a geared Fan with their UltraFan engine.
By the way, nice to read a post from someone who has a good technical understanding.

 

[adexkola]

When I looked at the videos, it wasn't obvious that a Fan Blade had failed. The fan looked to be rotating due to windmilling, albeit with a high level of unbalance. And the fire was further back in the turbine.
But let's wait until the NTSB has carried out the investigation.

RR is also developing a geared Fan with their UltraFan engine.
By the way, nice to read a post from someone who has a good technical understanding.

Aye, this is based on preliminary skimming of aviation herald and r/aviation... Could be something else once NTSB comes back.

 

[11101]

It's a Pratt & Whitney issue not Boeing. It's a 30 year old engine type, they'll be grounded for a few weeks at most whilst they inspect for fan blade cracks. It's unlikely there are any fundamental design problems hidden in there after all this time, and it probably would not be economic to fix them if there was.

 

[FireballXL5]

What would you be feeling if you looked out the window and saw this? Pretty amazing it didn't shake itself to pieces completely.

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[Grinner]

I see this as a buying opportunity for Boeing stock if it dives today.

 

[Eugenius]

No it's the engine that's fitted when it rolls of the assembly line of Boeing. They themselves don't select the engine as it's done by the customers but almost all 777-200s have the same engines hence the grounding. A lot of long haul flights are done with the 777. It's a very good aircraft especially for the long haul. Personally I prefer the 777 to the 787 for the long haul. I hope they get it sorted out soon. The engines on every aircraft will be inspected now. I mean the PW4000. However I am reading that Japan has grounded all 777.

The 777 in question is a much older version. For the last 15 years you've only been able to buy 777s with GE engines.

 

[Buster15]

Aye, this is based on preliminary skimming of aviation herald and r/aviation... Could be something else once NTSB comes back.

Looks like you were correct. The BBC states that preliminary investigation suggests the failure of 2 hollow Fan Blades. Hence the amount of out of balance and secondary damage.

 

[Hammerfell]

I see this as a buying opportunity for Boeing stock if it dives today.

Dark aeroplane humour. I like it.

 

[MarylandMUFan]

If I was on that plane, I would want it landed on a highway immediately, thinking the entire wing could come apart at any time.

 

[MTF]

If I was on that plane, I would want it landed on a highway immediately, thinking the entire wing could come apart at any time.

Don't think you'll find a highway wide enough and straight for long enough to accommodate a 777 coming in heavy and with limited reverse thrust capability. I think the only option they had even if the problem were more critical was to try to get to a runway, and Denver was still the closest one.

 

[11101]

The 777 in question is a much older version. For the last 15 years you've only been able to buy 777s with GE engines.

The only outstanding PW4000 orders are for the 767 tanker program. They haven't sold any others in years.

 

[starman]

Looks like there's been another incident involving the same part & manufacturer the Netherlands

Dutch investigators have opened an initial probe into an incident in which a Boeing 747-400 freighter apparently shed engine parts after departure from Maastricht.

The aircraft had “engine problems” and lost several metal parts after it took off from Maastricht-Aachen airport on 20 February, before diverting to Liege, says the South Limburg arm of safety co-ordination authority Veiligheidsregio.

Metal parts fell in the Sint Josephstraat district of Meerssen, which lies between the city and the airport, about 2km along the extended centreline of runway 21.

“Two people were slightly injured. One of them was taken to hospital,” the authority adds. ”Several cars and houses were damaged.”


While the Dutch Safety Board has not formally identified the aircraft involved, it appears to be a Longtail Aviation 747-400 converted freighter.

The aircraft – provisionally identified as VQ-BWT, originally delivered in 1991 to Singapore Airlines – took off from Maastricht for New York at about 16:10.

According to Cirium fleets data it is fitted with Pratt & Whitney PW4056 engines, from the same powerplant range – although a different model – as the PW4077 engine involved in the United Airlines Boeing 777 uncontained failure event over Denver on the same day.

Maastricht airport’s operator says an “engine fire started” after the 747 departed and it “lost debris” over Meerssen before landing in Liege. FlightGlobal understands the left-hand outboard engine was involved but this has not been formally confirmed.

 

[MarylandMUFan]

Don't think you'll find a highway wide enough and straight for long enough to accommodate a 777 coming in heavy and with limited reverse thrust capability. I think the only option they had even if the problem were more critical was to try to get to a runway, and Denver was still the closest one.

Yeah, but that's still what I would think in the moment. Get it down before it all falls apart.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

That’s interesting that they’d do that.

Anyway, seeing the photos of an engine cowling in the yard of a Denver area house was crazy. Lucky Donnie Darko wasn’t around.

In a way, yes but I could also see most Americans watching not having any clue that Airbus even exists so there wouldn't necessarily be a need to call out Boeing specifically since most probably think they are the only passenger plane manufacuture going.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Why do so many of you seem so knowledgeable about aeroplane engines? Is the caf full of aeronautical engineers? Or is this a hobby?

Not sure which scenario is weirder.

 

[JPRouve]

Why do so many of you seem so knowledgeable about aeroplane engines? Is the caf full of aeronautical engineers? Or is this a hobby?

Not sure which scenario is weirder.

I was going to say something like that. I'm positively amazed by the apparent and constant level of expertise in those threads.

 

[horsechoker]

I was going to say something like that. I'm positively amazed by the apparent and constant level of expertise in those threads.

Tracking players' flights to Manchester has meant cafites are now aeronautical experts.

 

[berbatrick]

If I was on that plane, I would want it landed on a highway immediately, thinking the entire wing could come apart at any time.

a single-engine failure isn't usually fatal. landing outside a runway, especially with a 777, much more so.
ya, you're right that the risk here would be that the fire spreads and takes down the wing, in which case it's finished, but i guess it's been tested like adexkola showed.

 

[calodo2003]

What would you be feeling if you looked out the window and saw this? Pretty amazing it didn't shake itself to pieces completely.

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That just looks so fake. Unbelievable.

Are the cracks that could cause a blade issue able to be seen by the naked eye or would they only be uncovered through X-ray?

Boeing does seem to be on a bit of a slow motion death roll. Helps it to be so big & have such immense market share. Who knows for how much longer, though?

 

[MDFC Manager]

What would you be feeling if you looked out the window and saw this?

I've ab obsession with occupying a window seat. If I saw that outside my window, I'd empty my bowels right there.

 

[Buster15]

I've ab obsession with occupying a window seat. If I saw that outside my window, I'd empty my bowels right there.

You and a couple of hundred others... Seriously scary stuff. But the brilliant fact is that the aircraft was able to land and no one was hurt, apart from Pratt & Whitney reputation maybe.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

That just looks so fake. Unbelievable.

Are the cracks that could cause a blade issue able to be seen by the naked eye or would they only be uncovered through X-ray?

Boeing does seem to be on a bit of a slow motion death roll. Helps it to be so big & have such immense market share. Who knows for how much longer, though?

From watching a number of aircrash documentaries these problems are usually at the molecular level in the metal and hard to etect unless an incident like this occurs. Now, they'll be checking a lot of parts with xrays, etc.

I've ab obsession with occupying a window seat. If I saw that outside my window, I'd empty my bowels right there.

Meh. The flames aren't too bad and as long as you have one engine, the plane should be fine.

 

[Buster15]

I was going to say something like that. I'm positively amazed by the apparent and constant level of expertise in those threads.

You are right. If you take the combined workforce of GE, P&W, RR and SNECMA, there must be well over a quarter of a million former and current workers.
Gas turbine engines are an incredible feat of engineering technology and I could bore you with my understanding.
But I won't... although I would love to. Incidents like this are incredibly rare.

 

[Drawfull]

Apropos of nothing, there's gonna be a comparative shit load of plane crashes and accidents in the next few months as the world starts up again.

 

[Buster15]

Apropos of nothing, there's gonna be a comparative shit load of plane crashes and accidents in the next few months as the world starts up again.

Why?

 

[Drawfull]

Why?

Covid impacting maintenance schedules. Pilots not flying for months.

 

[Buster15]

Covid impacting maintenance schedules. Pilots not flying for months.

Understood. Most of the maintenance schedules are mandatory meaning they have to be done at specific times. And the aircrew will have spent ages keeping current in the Sims.
Restarting flight operations isn't going to happen immediately. It will be a very gradual buildup.