You've lost the plot
Also, have you ever seen Maradona or Platini do an elastico? Is Rashford more talented than them as well?
Ronaldo vs Ronaldo
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Also, have you ever seen Maradona or Platini do an elastico? Is Rashford more talented than them as well?
The fact that you called Argentina a brilliant team shows the lack of knowledge on the subject.
Also CR7 teams are greater? Yet R9 played for the actual golaticos. Its a hilarious post.
I haven't lost any plot. Maradona might not have done an elastico, but he was doing done countless other tricks (like rabonas, nutmegs, roulettes etc). Show me Messi doing rabonas on a consistent basis.You've lost the plot
Also, have you ever seen Maradona or Platini do an elastico? Is Rashford more talented than them as well?
As for Platini, he has never been known for ball skills, so it's not a meaningful comparison.
The fact that you think Argentina did not have a great team shows yours. All you Messi apologists do is to find excuses for every time he fails.
Whether you like it or not, Argentina did have a very good team in the time span I mentioned. He just wasn't good enough to lead them to any trophies.
He crumbled in every major game he played for them cause he is mentally weak.
As for R9, he played for the Galacticos (not "golacticos", as you misspelled it) when he was past his prime, after his knee injuries. And so were many of the Galacticos.
Has to be one of Ronaldo's kids.You've lost the plot
Also, have you ever seen Maradona or Platini do an elastico? Is Rashford more talented than them as well?
Nobody gives a bollix about rabona's or tricks. Football is about scoring more goals than the opposition not Rabona's, nutmegs, roulettes etc.. You know who used to do loads of that shit? CR7, then he stopped because he realized it was pointless and putting the ball in the net was football, thats when he became a truly world class footballer. My 13 year old daughter is partial to a rabona, she should be in the PL ahead of De Bruyne? You're having a nightmare here dude...
Are we really talking about an elástico? Again
Someone up here mentioned that Messi had a brilliant NT between 2010 and 2016. I laughed my fking lungs out
Someone up here mentioned that Messi had a brilliant NT between 2010 and 2016. I laughed my fking lungs out
Actually a decent watch. But there’s an issue that totally scuppers your argument.
Here is a list of players you yourself claimed to be better than ZZ (or more important teammates of his) and where they were ranked in the first video that you provided (Zidane was ranked 29th):
Andrea Pirlo at 99
Thierry Henry at 94
Rivaldo at 89
Andres Iniesta at 59
Roberto Baggio at 56
Ronaldinho at 41
Xavi at 40
Michael Laudrup at 37
Marco Van Basten at 31
Vieira, Thuram, Neymar, Zlatan, Luis Suarez, Nedved and Bergkamp didn’t even make the list. Kaká, Cantona and Gascoigne were not even in the honourable mentions
You claimed that all these players were better than Zidane or more important to his teams than he was, and then you provided a list which suggests that they’re not. Even your own evidence disagrees with you....
Who does then? Where did this distinction come from?
Rivaldo played as a second striker as well as playing AM. ZZ was an AM and preferred to create rather than score (except on a few very famous occasions). There’s nothing wrong with that.
Are you Italian? Do you live in Turin? How many matches did you go to? Genuinely interested to know
He scored 3 goals, none of which came in that game. So he must have done something else in the tournament outside of that one game....
Disagree, except for goalscoring.
Disagree again, though I respect ADP
“Apart from the most important game in all of football, he had no great games.” Ok....
Fair enough. We’ll have to agree to disagree on ZZ then. The original discussion was whether he was among the 5 best players since Maradona. I say he easily is, you say he isn’t, I don’t think we can reach common ground here.
I hated Fat Ronaldo, he was brilliant just brilliant. Still compare point strikers to him and non comes close. It’s hard having C7 s longevity as a point man. I believe C7 is able to stay this long at the top because he plays mainly as wide forward.
He was that good I remember Ayala elbowing him in a Milan derby I was celebrating. The best 1 v 1 I’ve ever seen ( be it the defender/keeper).
You are not making any sense in some of your response, I don’t know whether it’s a case of you trying to cover your own mistake, or just you honestly think that way. To avoid keep on dragging forever, I’ll just keep it straight to the point.
1. Pogba was key player in WC winning squad, it make no sense for you to suddenly bring up Pele and Maradona, we are comparing with Zidane, Ronaldinho and L.Ronaldo all along.
2. Bayern won 3 CL but Beckenbauer was their best player, who had won 3 Ballon D’or, not Muller. Muller only has 1 Ballon D’or, the best player in his era were clearly Cruyff (3 Ballon D’or) and Beckenbauer (3 Ballon D’or). Are you trying to say Muller is better than Beckenbauer/Cruyff, or you just don’t think individual honors worth any mention when accessing players career?
3. Are you really suggesting Ronaldo should have won Ballon D’or in 93-94? Seriously? I’ll stop here if you meant every word you said. It meaningless to discuss any further if you are totally out of your mind.
4. For your information, Ronaldo won his FIFA award in 96, 97, 02. He didn’t win any award before Ballon D’or introduce players from all origin in 1995. The only difference there is that he won FIFA award in 1996 where he finished runners up in Ballon D’or same year. So why would you think he should win Ballon D’or in 93-94 is beyond mystery, especially when best player in world during 93-94 are clearly Romario, Baggio etc. Ronaldo was just an unknown kid back then.
5. Well there is clearly huge gap when the magnitude of difference of stats is something like 700-800 goals vs 300-400 goals. You can’t say stats isn’t important at all, otherwise you can also say there’s no gap/difference between Pele and Martial in terms of goalscoring over their career. It just isn’t true.
6. We are comparing players career here , I have presented in depth all the traditional matrix everyone use to access a players career, namely major trophies, Ballon D’or, total no of trophies, individual stats and records, those are all the important highlights of players career everyone would talk about for years. If you have any issues with any of those, you can counter propose your own matrix. Just that 99% of people out there may not agree with you. But at least we can keep this discussion relevant to the topic.
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Rabonas and tricks are not as irrelevant as you think since spectacular football attracts viewers and thus money for the sport.
But I agree with you that in the end goals are more important.
Nobody said that the guy who can do more tricks is necessarily the better footballer, I simply mentioned one's technique/ability to control de ball as a measure of talent on a thread that was dedicated to that topic.
My own evidence doesn't disagree with me since you only asked me to provide you with a list where ZZ isn't top 10. I did just that so that you can see that others don't see ZZ as being top 10. I never said I completely agree with all the players on this list or their positions, I just agree about ZZ's placement.
I'm not Italian and I don't live in Turin. My father had business associates there and from the better part of the 90s he'd use to travel to Italy every weekend. I'd tag along with him and I'd get to go to matches. I saw many superstars like Baggio, R9, Batistuta, Del Piero, Maldini, Baresi, Cannavaro, Buffon, Nesta etc - playing live. It was a great era for football.
Ok, but the stats contradict you. Platini created and assisted more.
I agree that was a big moment, but him having 1 great game doesn't mean he played well the whole event.
No, I don't think he is, but each his own I guess.
At least we agree on many other things.
In other words, Ronaldinho > Messi, base on your 4 points presented above.
Of course that's an elastico. The movement is the same even if the situation in which it was applied is different. R9 had a few very similar ones to this one, by the way.
Not that it matters anyway. Tricks aren't mandatory, they're a stylistic device, a means to an end. If you can accomplish the same without a trick, it doesn't matter which way you did it.
Platini>Zidane, no doubt about that.
And Platini was a better passer than Zidane. Zidane was better dribbler though.
And Platini was a better passer than Zidane. Zidane was better dribbler though.
Why does your ridiculous logic not apply to Platini? How is he exempt? You're in here saying Platini is better than Zidane because he has more goals and assists and was more effective, yet Zidane was the more flashier player. Meanwhile, Ronaldinho is a more talented player because he does more elasticos and rabonas than Messi
Messi doesn't do flashy tricks, nor did Platini. Doesn't make them less talented and you can't apply logic to one and not the other.
Well done though this actually made me laugh out loud. Coming from an ex-professional player of course. You sound about 11 years old mate.
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As I said, I don't think the conditions are the same since Messi played primarily during the social media age and R9's happened way before that. So I think it's generally harder to find highlight compilations from individual games, especially snce those kind of videos only became popular in the last five years or so. I remember the first football clips on YouTube, with all kinds of flashy effects like flames around the ball, lightnings etcI've watched those videos and many like it. Hell, when I was a kid I used to edit football compilations of Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and CR7 as a hobby
R9 is one of my favourite footballers and his highlights are unreal, but with the proliferation of match highlights on youtube, I've revisited some of his most iconic games; the final against Lazio, the insane game against Valencia and lots his time in Barcelona and Inter. The reason I said I want you to find 5 videos of Ronaldo having analogous matches showcasing his dribbling is because I could only find a couple myself. There are many many match highlights of R9's early career, literally hundreds on this channel alone, so it won't be too difficult if what you say is true. Fact is, I've looked back at his games and it's not the case - looking at a compilation isn't the same.
So obviously a lie, there's no way someone who played professional football can think the elastico is actually difficult to do. Any professional footballer can do it - you can go down to a 5-a-side league on any given weekday and see overweight show-offs and weed smoking kids pulling off perfect elasticos yet you really think Messi, arguably the best footballer of all time can't? I'd be surprised if you've ever kicked a ball in your life tbh
Anyway he does one here - not that it proves anything
And even that was way after R9's prime. So I don't know if he had fewer games like the ones you cited but I think if you make a compilation of R9's dribbling highlights in those Barca and Inter years, it won't be any less impressive than a compilation of Messi's best dribbling highlights over a span of 3 years.
But I totally get your points and you might very well be right. Personally I believe that some of the scenes in the videos I posted prove that R9 had close control and agility similar to Messi's although he might have been less consistent with those things. Anyway, let's just agree that both were/are absolutely brillant dribblers
Just out of curiosity, what do you think is the advantage of doing a rabona? To me that trick is like the embodiment of the inefficient trickster. It won't help you, it only makes the pass/shot more difficult than it has to be. And not even players like Maradona or Ronaldinho could really control where the ball would end up. I just don't see the point in it, it's totally inefficient. I think that's also the reason why even Maradona and Ronaldinho used it very rarely if at all.
The typical response of the C.Ronaldo/Messi fan whose world view is challenged.
It made sense. Luis Ronaldo and Zidane are World Cup icons, like Pele and Maradona. Messi and Ronaldo are not. Bringing up Paul Pogba and Kleberson is simply a poor and misguided attempt to distract from this fact. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
No individual honours are definitely worth something but what they mean and how they are distributed changes over time, especially in the club game. If Muller was playing today, he would have won the Ballon D’Or more than once. I’ve already explained why someone like DiStefano doesn’t have more than 2 despite the fact that his Real Madrid won 5 straight ECs with him as the unquestioned leader, scoring in every final.
For example, everyone makes a big deal of Messi’s 91 goal year when he broke Miller’s 85 goal record from 1972. Did Muller win the Ballon D’Or that year? Of course not. I think that a guy playing currently and scoring 85 goals whilst winning the Euros and the Bundesliga would win the Ballon D’Or over a defender.
I said Luis Ronaldo was not eligible for the award for a small part of his career, a part of his career when he was top scoring in two different leagues and being placed in teams of the year. That is a fact. Whether he would have won or been in contention is a different question. I also made general points about the schism between the WPOTY and the Ballon D’Or. If they were fused at the time, how many would Ronaldo have? 3 or 1?
He wasn’t an unknown kid back then but that speaks to your lack of knowledge of the period
Your stats left out something crucial: games played. Repost with those and we can perhaps have a proper contextual discussion, though it seems pointless because you’ve totally bought into the lie that this era is superior to all others
And everyone will talk about for years that Messi and (especially) Ronaldo were not great World Cup players. Does your ‘matrix’ give sufficient weight to that fact or not? I’d argue no.
Luis Ronaldo’s career goal to game ratio is 0.67. C. Ronaldo’s is 0.75. That’s with LR having to come back basically from career ending injuries in his early 20s. Let’s add some depth to your ‘matrix’......
Have Messi and Ronaldo had overall better careers? Probably yes. Is the gap as vast as you are trying to make out? No. But when people worship individual players, it’s hard to make them see the truth....
One thing I find interesting about Messi and Ronaldo fans. They will each slag off the rival player till the cows come home, but when someone brings up a player from another era, they unite like Volton to rubbish that guy. It then becomes ‘Messi and Ronaldo are the two best players of all time and it’s not even close!’
It’s quite amusing......
I'm happy to agree both are two of the best dribblers of all time, but I do take issue with you saying it's generally harder to find match highlights of Ronaldo as all of R9's legendary games are online and this channel alone has hundreds of lesser known games from his peak as well - I've watched a heap of them myself and made my own mind up
https://www.youtube.com/user/ronaldogodmagic/videos
You can prefer Ronaldo's dribbling compilation video more than Messi's, but it's not true to say there isn't enough videos of Ronaldo's matches as there are, you're just choosing not to watch them. If you get the time to go back and watch them (I suggest you do, as he was such a direct and fearless player), I'd be interested to see if your opinion changes on who is the better dribbler.
Well, hard to argue against that. Didn't know that there were so many R9 match compilations and I'm pretty surprised right now. left a subscription there and I'll definitely watch a few of them when I have the time, thanks for sharing!
I largely agree that both messi and Ronaldo are superior to R9 at their peak over a season. Messi is probably superior in individual aggregated moments too.
An interesting hypothetical for @Zehner @MalcolmTucker etc though: You’re playing a cup final against an inferior team. Who do you fear most as your opponent (at their peaks ) ? Messi, R7, or R9?
An interesting hypothetical for @Zehner @MalcolmTucker etc though: You’re playing a cup final against an inferior team. Who do you fear most as your opponent (at their peaks ) ? Messi, R7, or R9?
What part of my comments don't you understand ?!? It's like I'm speaking English and you're speaking Chinese. I'm talking about apples and you're talking about oranges...... You're in here saying Platini is better than Zidane because he has more goals and assists and was more effective, yet Zidane was the more flashier player. Meanwhile, Ronaldinho is a more talented player because he does more elasticos and rabonas than Messi
I said Platini is better and I gave arguments as to why, I never said he's more talented.
I also said Ronaldinho is more talented and I gave arguments as to why, I never said he's also better.
Being more talented is one thing, being better is another, they are entirely different things. Now do you understand ?!??
I'd probably opt for Messi. I think this typical scenario of a clearly superior team playing a clearly inferior team parking the bus with team A completely dominating is more of a modern era occurence so we didn't really see R9 in those situations too often.
And to this date I haven't seen a player better at breaking down a defensive line than Messi. When Barca dominates possession and "besieges" the opponent box, with Messi seing lots of the ball, he's absolutely lethal. The meltdowns Barca had in the CL in the past years usually occur when the team as a whole doesn't perform, gives away the ball too often, is pressed heavily, etc. But when they are focused and get Messi into dangerous positions, he'll always find a way.
CR7 is different, IMO. He's better if you don't really have creative forces in your team (this will never be the case as long as you have Messi) and try to force a goal. I believe a team with Messi in it will be better at creating chances and dominating the opponent while CR7 increases your chances to decide the tie in your favor with very few plays. I think that's the case for the most remarkable performances both have been shown in the CL, too. CR7's legendary games against Bayern, Juve etc. usually saw him participating hardly at all but then being there in the decisive moments while Messi is usually on the ball a lot and has much more plays during a game, contributing to a surplus of chances for his team.
Difficult, I was only 6-9 when R9 was at his peak so I can't trust my memories although I do remember the excitement whenever he got the ball at WC98. Watching highlights back isn't the same really but the fact he was so direct and athletically superior to his peers makes him a unique and fearful opponent.
I absolutely hated Messi and Barcelona back when he was at his peak. Every time he got the ball in those CL finals and semi-finals I was bricking it. Watched one of the finals in a pub in Budapest surrounded by Barcelona fans and took the loss like an complete baby
CR7, certainly is less of a consistent threat, but when he was at his peak he could score from 40 yards, dribble or finish in any form. He does offer an aerial threat and I remember when he's played against us for Madrid and Juventus, feeling nervous every time their wide players shaped to put a cross in.
Even though I think Messi is a better player, I think R9 and Messi are on a par as R9 was such a physical phenomenon. This may just be nostalgia colouring my opinion though.
Cristiano Ronaldo looks like a stiff board out there, and for the past years. Just fishing for goals like Inzaghi.
Yes he had a better career, but R9 never looked so talentless on a pitch. Even fat and past it, he showed more quality in one toe nail than most attackers. I don't get why lot of people are so salty that most preferred to watch R9. Even some people with the guts to rewrite history and say there was some version of Cristiano where he had the same dribbling and finesse of R9, hahahaha.
Yes he had a better career, but R9 never looked so talentless on a pitch. Even fat and past it, he showed more quality in one toe nail than most attackers. I don't get why lot of people are so salty that most preferred to watch R9. Even some people with the guts to rewrite history and say there was some version of Cristiano where he had the same dribbling and finesse of R9, hahahaha.
Could R9 even move at 36?
yes to reach his fridge to get ice creams and door to receive McDonald burgers.
CR7 and Messi are not superior to R9 at their peak over a season.
As for your second question, although you didn't ask me, I'd pick R9 in a heartbeat.
Brilliant post.
What's the relevance of that ?! R9 suffered from hypothiroidism.
Well let me just remind you. R9 has been terrible since he reach his 30s
R9
At 30: 4 goals in 13 games
At 31 7 goals in 14 games
At 32: 2 goals in 6 games
At 33: no longer up to standard to play in Europe, move back to Brazil league, 23 goals in 38 games
At 34: 12 goals in 26 games in Brazil league
At 35, 0 goals in 4 games in Brazil league
At 36: Retired as fat man, unable to play professional football even at Brazil league
CR7
Age 30-35, scored over 300 goals, average 50 goals per season.
At 36: Still slim and fit, currently top scorer in Serie A
Yeh never look so talentless my ass. No matter how you tried to twist it, CR7 at 36 is still easily far better than R9 at 30-35.
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Cause R9 had his knees broken aged 23 and suffered from hypothiroidism.
Or is that irrelevant in your mind ???
Plus "paraguayo" was talking about how good/skilled one looked with the ball at his feet, not how effective he still was at that age
Whatever problem he has, he was terrible footballer when he reached his 30s. He can’t even play or score in Brazil league, and he is not up to required standard to play in Europe top league, and he is fat and slow and couldn’t move his ass on the pitch. How can one assume he is still good on ball in every games he played? Ridiculous logic.
Of the top players (Maraodna, R9, Messi etc) of all time, CR7 is the fish out of water in the eye test. Even fat Ronaldo oozed class whenever he received a ball.
CR7 today lacked basic coordination and finesse. No version of the other top players have ever looked so mediocre technically. Numbers wise, sure, thats what Cristiano lives for.
Cristiano has cussed out teammates in 8-0 blowouts because they didn't square a tap in for the 9-0. Imagine if R9 cared so much about stats haha.
The eye test Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ.He has a bad game, no one disagree with that. But that doesn’t mean he has bad season, nor does that mean R9 or Maradona didn’t have any bad games at all. You are just overreacting and giving out knee jerk judgement upon one bad game. Maradona and R9 during their 30s were far far worse and had far far more bad games than CR7. Don’t pretend this isn’t a case.
Yeah 'fat' Ronaldo was still class at 27-28. Not a 30+, he didn't 'ooze class' then. CR is scoring 20 goals in 22 games in the league at 36 (after scoring 31 the season before).
I'd take Messi's 91 goal season over anyones. Still doesn't mean I don't consider R9 in his prime up there with the very best.
Not bad for someone with no knees, serious health problems, not training properly and living large (fecking trannies, drinking, smoking).
On the other side Critistiano has personal chef, personal trainer, sleep patterns to follow, all the sports science available yet can't out run Buffon in training.
2014 word cup final, 2015 copa america final, 2016 copa america finalAre we really talking about an elástico? Again
Someone up here mentioned that Messi had a brilliant NT between 2010 and 2016. I laughed my fking lungs out
That wasn't a brilliant team???? In what world???
And Messi did have an absolutely stacked NT talent-wise throughout his career. Bad choices of managers, injuries and a lack of strong mentality were their downfall, but it's not like Messi wasn't guilty of poor performances either
Altough the thread is called Ronaldo vs Ronaldo i knew this would turn out in another Ronaldo vs Messi thread.
As for the actual question: CR7 over R9 in terms of peak and career for me
As for the actual question: CR7 over R9 in terms of peak and career for me
Better peak - Cristiano
Better career - Cristiano
Better raw natural talent - Ronaldo
Only thing Cristiano's missing really is the World Cup, however his peak at Real is unmatched by virtually all footballers except maybe Messi in terms of output, 450 goals in 438 games is insane
However, i preferred watching Ronaldo at his peak and he definitely had the better natural ability, he would most likely and unquestionably had the better of both if he could stay fit and have a long a peak as Cristiano, which he could not.
Better career - Cristiano
Better raw natural talent - Ronaldo
Only thing Cristiano's missing really is the World Cup, however his peak at Real is unmatched by virtually all footballers except maybe Messi in terms of output, 450 goals in 438 games is insane
However, i preferred watching Ronaldo at his peak and he definitely had the better natural ability, he would most likely and unquestionably had the better of both if he could stay fit and have a long a peak as Cristiano, which he could not.