[harms]

It was not a hospital ball. It was a perfectly good pass. This isn't 1992. Teams now build from the back and this exact pass will now be encouraged in academies. The game has changed. You make this pass to suck players in. Fred needs to pass that out wide with his first touch. If you don't understand why this was a good pass then perhaps you shouldn't comment on it anymore. I've tried to help you understand but you either aren't getting it, or just refuse to admit you were wrong...

Building from the back does equal making passes through the center to your defensive midfielder who is surrounded by three players. Fred should’ve done better, but no way a player like Ramos or Pique makes this pass instead of switching the play to the left/holding the ball until a better option comes up/passing it back to Hendo.

Playing from the back is supposed to stretch out the pressing team and finding a free channel to move the ball forward, not passing it straight into the trap in the hope that your midfielder can do a Busquets and escape the pressure or pass it first time.

It’s not a hospital pass though, that I agree on, simply because a hospital pass must provoke an instant foul/challenge.

 

[Stacks]

Yes it was an unwise pass by Maguire but that’s all it was. It only becomes a mistake if the person you’ve passed to allows it to.

It was 100% Fred’s fault. He could literally have done anything else and it wouldn’t have resulted in what it did.

He could have passed to a team mate. He could have knocked it long either side of him. He could even have booted it out for a corner.

He could literally have done anything else except take a bad touch and pass it to Leicester’s striker to put him through 1 on 1 with Henderson.

Midfielders at top clubs get put in that position multiple times every single game. The onus is on them to deal with it.

agreed. If defenders can't pass to their CM under a bit of pressure they should not be at a big club. We need technical players not just hard grafters. Fred basically did the worst of all options

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Building from the back does equal making passes through the center to your defensive midfielder who is surrounded by three players. Fred should’ve done better, but no way a player like Ramos or Pique makes this pass instead of switching the play to the left/holding the ball until a better option comes up/passing it back to Hendo.

Playing from the back is supposed to stretch out the pressing team and finding a free channel to move the ball forward, not passing it straight into the trap in the hope that your midfielder can do a Busquets and escape the pressure or pass it first time.

It’s not a hospital pass though, that I agree on, simply because a hospital pass must provoke an instant foul/challenge.

Actually, you just described exactly why you make that pass to Fred as it will suck in the players even more for AWB to take off up field when Fred makes a first time pass to his RB who is wide open. Maguire could have passed it to Lindelof but Leicester would have shifted with that pass and AWB wouldn't have been as wide open as he was. But passing it to Fred first, it draws the 3 Leicester players inside which makes AWB even more space than he already has...

 

[Striker10]

I think honestly sometimes a defender should just take charge and whack it up field. When you play against quick forwards, the risk is increased when you play this way. We've made a number of errors this season. In fact, we made a number of errors against Leicester alone. It's completely avoidable and it's stupid. Do they not understand how many times we've went behind in away games? We've done it continually.

 

[golden_blunder]

It’s my number one peeve. Does the coach tell them to keep up this nonsense no matter what?

 

[Becks-7-]

This is the point Fred received the ball. Maguire played it to his left foot, there is no way he can get it out to AWB, and it's far too risky with Vardy close and Fred not being able to know exactly where Perez was coming from behind him. Your over 35s amateur midfielder might want the pass but it's a bit different doing it against 3 PL strikers...

Both of them should have played the ball to Telles. Should be an easy ball for Fred as well as he is left footed.
They are obviously told not to play long passes which is a nice idea if you can handle some pressure. With Pogba on the pitch there would be someone who could reach long balls in the air as a plan b if the pressure is too big. I don‘t get it why they kind of ignore that and always try it again - it was not the first conceded goal this season because of that.

As it is a thread for Maguire: what does he add to this team that Johnny Evans could not?

 

[harms]

Actually, you just described exactly why you make that pass to Fred as it will suck in the players even more for AWB to take off up field when Fred makes a first time pass to his RB who is wide open. Maguire could have passed it to Lindelof but Leicester would have shifted with that pass and AWB wouldn't have been as wide open as he was. But passing it to Fred first, it draws the 3 Leicester players inside which makes AWB even more space than he already has...

It’s literally the opposite of how it works. Those types of situations are called pressing traps, and Fred was in one. If he can escape a pressing trap, it’s brilliant as you’ve basically beat the press (it’s highly unlikely that the opponent will have numerical advantage elsewhere on the pitch with 3 vs 1 on here). But you don’t take those risks when you’re building from the back, unless you have players like Verratti, Modrić or Busquets, who are basically immune to pressure. When you’re playing out if the back, you play to the areas that are under less pressure in order to lure the opponent to one side and then make a diagonal pass to the other side — as an example. You have to force risky situations, but you have to assess the risk — and you especially don’t want to lose the ball in central areas, where the opponents get a goalscoring opportunity the moment they get the ball of you.

Fred was horrible by the way, and made a complete mess of that situation, a better player should be able to make an accurate pass or to retain the ball... but Maguire should’ve known better — he’s not playing with Fred for the first time and while ideally we should get an upgrade on him, while we haven’t, you have to adjust. Just like other players have to adjust to Maguire’s complete lack of recovery pace or De Gea’s inability to leave the line in time.

 

[jem]

thanks for your reply. You've added so much to this conversation

I clearly have. Anyone who disagrees clearly doesn’t understand how conversations work.

 

[SATA]

Did Fred actually offer himself for the pass and then feck it up himself? Can’t fault Maguire for giving the ball if that was the case with Fred

 

[SadlerMUFC]

It’s literally the opposite of how it works. Those types of situations are called pressing traps, and Fred was in one. If he can escape a pressing trap, it’s brilliant as you’ve basically beat the press (it’s highly unlikely that the opponent will have numerical advantage elsewhere on the pitch with 3 vs 1 on here). But you don’t take those risks when you’re building from the back, unless you have players like Verratti, Modrić or Busquets, who are basically immune to pressure. When you’re playing out if the back, you play to the areas that are under less pressure in order to lure the opponent to one side and then make a diagonal pass to the other side — as an example. You have to force risky situations, but you have to assess the risk — and you especially don’t want to lose the ball in central areas, where the opponents get a goalscoring opportunity the moment they get the ball of you.

Fred was horrible by the way, and made a complete mess of that situation, a better player should be able to make an accurate pass or to retain the ball... but Maguire should’ve known better — he’s not playing with Fred for the first time and while ideally we should get an upgrade on him, while we haven’t, you have to adjust. Just like other players have to adjust to Maguire’s complete lack of recovery pace or De Gea’s inability to leave the line in time.

You don't need any type of specialist or world class player for that situation. Maguire could have played that ball to me and I would have dealt with it easily with a first touch pass to AWB. I don't know why people seem to be over complicating this. It was a basic situation that happens several times per game. Fred had a CLEAR passing lane IF he passed it first time. He decided to take a touch and took that passing lane away from himself. Fred messed up. End of...

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Did Fred actually offer himself for the pass and then feck it up himself? Can’t fault Maguire for giving the ball if that was the case with Fred

Yes...Fred came in and showed for the pass. it was basic stuff that Fred messed up...

 

[united for life]

His worst game in some time. He’s been so good lately that I hope it was one of those one offs. Midfield was also horrible and didn’t really offer him any protection, which meant he ended up in some 1v1 situations and those are really his weakest point.

indeed it is and that will keep costing us. You’d expect a man united defender to handle such situations better. Vardy dribbled past him yesterday so easily it wasn’t funny; an actual pain to watch. I’m afraid his latest good form is the exception to his mediocrity. I don’t see anything special about him especially that he is expected to lead our back line. He doesn’t do that.

 

[DoomSlayer]

I don't think he can handle the pressure, especially when the team needs him as a leader and captain.

 

[A-man]

I am a little bit wondering what result Maguire wanted to get out from his pass to Fred. If Fred was successful, it would most likely just end up with Henderson clearing it and then Maguire might just as well hoofed it himself. If he wanted Fred to pass out to the side, why not pass Telles? He was totally free.

 

[lex talionis]

Maguire should have known better than to pass the ball to Fred under any but the most manageable of circumstances, but Fred must bear all culpability for the goal.

 

[Machine Elements]

This "he's not a bad player" nonsense needs to stop because while true, under no circumstance can 80 million for not bad be called a successful purchase. Leicester replaced him with TWO superior players with that money, and what quality of center back did the two clubs that have been the standard bearers over the past three seasons get when they spent less money and VVD and Dias. He's the most expensive center back in the world but he's not even one of the 20 best center backs in the world. The suggestion that "he needs a world class CB next to him" is pure comedy because that statement alone shows it was a bad bit of business. He's just nowhere near good enough for the price paid. Awful decision by whoever made it.

Agreed. He'll probably end up as the worst transfer of the club's history. We at least got most of our money back for Di Maria & Lukaku. If we were to sell tim tomorrow, we wouldn't even get half the price we paid for him. World class fee for an average defender just because he's English. And some people still say "Ole did a great job with his squad building". No, he didn't.

 

[Powderfinger]

Maguire shouldn’t have made the pass and Fred fecked it up from there but the really standout thing about the situation is that even if you break the press you’re not gaining a real advantage. The reason is ultimately simple: You’re not using the keeper, so you don’t really have a numerical advantage to exploit. The whole setup is poor. Henderson should be the one with the ball in the center, Maguire over near Telles, and Telles upfield. That way you actually have an advantage if you break the initial pressure.

You can make arguments for playing out of the back or not but one thing is pretty clear: it’s stupid to do it unless you’re really going to use the keeper as an 11th field player. It’s all risk and little reward.

Relatedly, while the goal definitely wasn’t his fault, Henderson really doesn’t look comfortable at all. When waiting for the ball from Fred he gets set up like a keeper, not a player waiting for a ball to feet.

 

[KetilOwren88]

Maguire shouldn’t have made the pass and Fred fecked it up from there but the really standout thing about the situation is that even if you break the press you’re not gaining a real advantage. The reason is ultimately simple: You’re not using the keeper, so you don’t really have a numerical advantage to exploit. The whole setup is poor. Henderson should be the one with the ball in the center, Maguire over near Telles, and Telles upfield. That way you actually have an advantage if you break the initial pressure.

You can make arguments for playing out of the back or not but one thing is pretty clear: it’s stupid to do it unless you’re really going to use the keeper as an 11th field player. It’s all risk and little reward.

Relatedly, while the goal definitely wasn’t his fault, Henderson really doesn’t look comfortable at all. When waiting for the ball from Fred he gets set up like a keeper, not a player waiting for a ball to feet.

This. I have never understood why Maguire is building from the back from a central position. As you say, it’s common for CBs to go wider and FBs to go higher to create space. The way United build from the back is so bizarre to watch

 

[Water Melon]

Maguire shouldn’t have made the pass and Fred fecked it up from there but the really standout thing about the situation is that even if you break the press you’re not gaining a real advantage. The reason is ultimately simple: You’re not using the keeper, so you don’t really have a numerical advantage to exploit. The whole setup is poor. Henderson should be the one with the ball in the center, Maguire over near Telles, and Telles upfield. That way you actually have an advantage if you break the initial pressure.

You can make arguments for playing out of the back or not but one thing is pretty clear: it’s stupid to do it unless you’re really going to use the keeper as an 11th field player. It’s all risk and little reward.

Relatedly, while the goal definitely wasn’t his fault, Henderson really doesn’t look comfortable at all. When waiting for the ball from Fred he gets set up like a keeper, not a player waiting for a ball to feet.

This. I have never understood why Maguire is building from the back from a central position. As you say, it’s common for CBs to go wider and FBs to go higher to create space. The way United build from the back is so bizarre to watch

Torally agree.
Some journo needs to ask Ole some questions regarding our playing from the back. There should be some logic behind our play, otherwise, the coaching staff are either dumb or blind.

 

[Fracture90]

I find it amusing that certain posters are defending Maguire's choice of a person to pass the ball too.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

I find it amusing that certain posters are defending Maguire's choice of a person to pass the ball too.

I mean its common sense to not play a short pass to a player facing your own goal when he's being closed down under pressure from behind.

 

[Cassidy]

I mean its common sense to not play a short pass to a player facing your own goal when he's being closed down under pressure from behind.

City do it quite often, but their midfielders can handle it

 

[Anustart89]

I think the pass to Fred is a fair one and the blame should be on Fred for that. A professional footballer should be able to handle a bit of pressure in the back. Of course, in hindsight Maguire had other options but to pass it to Fred there wasn't as horrible a decision as has been made out here.

What I do have a problem with is Maguire's tendency to just leave the back four to put pressure on players who pose no danger to our goal, and then expecting everyone else to pick up the slack. He did it against Fulham when he went to mark Loftus Cheek 30 yards from goal with his back turned towards it, which opened up his space in defence and then everyone blamed Bailly and everyone else for not covering it. Against Leicester, he again goes up to put pressure in the back on a player that has his back to our goal, which then leaves Lindelöf alone to try to simultaneously cover Tielemans's shot and Vardy's run.

It's such a pointless thing to be doing, disrupting an entire defensive shape to man-mark guys in midfield, especially when you don't have recovery pace if you end up being turned or passed around.

 

[LovelyLittlePanda]

@Matriac didn't want to derail Ole's thread.

Most of your post reads like an excuse for why Maguire's price was close to Virgil's.

The £80m for Maguire was market price for what was available at the time.

The £80m became market price, because that's what we ended up paying. I don't buy that CB prices were somehow higher that year because of availability. Didn't De Ligt go to Juve for the same price in the same window? Infinitely better buy.

He's not the best in the world, but he's very solid and reliable.

Absolutely, 50m at most?

We didn't have any proper long-term captains in the club (evidenced by Young being picked after Valencia that summer), and I'm certain Ole always planned to make him captain by the following summer (but Young moved in Jan), this to help change the culture in the club/locker room. There's lotsa reports on Maguire doing lots behind the scenes for the culture, including making everyone demand more from themselves for punctuality and professionality for showing up for training, meetings etc.

Nothing about him screams captain to me. Happy he's been a positive influence in the dressing room. Did he need an armband for that? I don't think the captaincy is important anyway. The true leader on the pitch usually isn't the captain. It's a bad reason to pay premium.

He's English (and a national team regular), meaning he qualifies as homegrown, and we need at least 8 senior (over 21) players in the squad that are homegrown or we can't have 25 squad players. We were about to get rid of several other homegrown players, and we needed to refill with some solid players part of the core that was likely to stay at the club for 5-10 years. (Another reason why AWB was favored.)

It's true that homegrown players are more expensive, making them overpriced. How about we let all the characterless clubs with sugar daddies/states fight over the James Milners of this world?
We are nowhere near struggling to meet homegrown requirements. There's cheaper solutions to that problem than overpaying by 30m.

And he was available that summer, so we needed him then to get the project started to start working on the team culture.
Had Maguire been dutch like Ake I'm sure he would have gone for 40-50m. But he had those other factors that meant that Leicester could charge more in this limited supply and demand market.

Ake is homegrown too (moved to Chelsea as a teen), that's why he was also overpriced. Paying a footballer more because of his nationality is bad business.

Over time he'll definitely be worth the fee.

He won't. I wish it were true. He might very well be part of a title winning team eventually. I don't believe he will hold us back, but he won't add anything to our chances either. Very good in the air, comfy on the ball, but nothing special for utd.

 

[Matriac]

@Matriac didn't want to derail Ole's thread.

Most of your post reads like an excuse for why Maguire's price was close to Virgil's.

No, I think this other excellent post by @MinGin from the page before in the Ole thread explains why the price was close to Virgil's:

Sign no one, then, who should we used to play regularly? Lindelof and Smalling with dropped form De Gea? Lindelof and "Hope injury-free" Bailly ?
And how about when another overpriced players are negotiated in the next transfer window? still sign no one until the negotiator become good at negotiation?

Yes, he is slow but he is hardly got past by opposite, so "slow" is not the mainly weaknesses point to the team. Having a never off the line GK to cause our slow CBs need to cover more area and be attacked by special targeting corners/crossing are the weaknesses point for us when we played a high line. If you compare the stats between Maguire, Dias and Van Dijk (19/20 ver), is he far lower than others who is top CB in premier league?

Premier League	Maguire at 20/21 @ 2610mins played	Dias at 20/21 @ 2393mins played	Van Dijk at 19/20 @ 3420mins played
Tackles A/W (%) Per 90 mins	0.8/0.4 (50%)	0.8/0.5 (62.5%)	0.6/0.3 (50%)
Aerials A/W (%) Per 90 mins	5.3/3.9 (73.6%)	3.1/2.0 (64.5%)	6.2/4.8 (77.4%)
Duels A/W (%) Per 90 mins	9.1/5.9 (64.8%)	5.8/3.6 (62.1%)	8.1/6.1 (75%)
Clearances Per 90 mins	3.7	2.7	4.2
Possesion Lost Per 90 mins	9.5	6.5	9.6
Tounches Per 90 mins	78.1	95.0	94.4
Interception Per 90 mins	1.7	1.2	0.9
Recoveries Per 90 mins	5.9	4.4	5.7
Last Man Tackles Per 90 mins	0	0	2.0
Passing Per 90 mins	66.5 (87%)	86.3 (93%)	84.8 (89%)
Final Third Passing Per 90 mins	11.1	8.1	14.0
Long Ball Passing Per 90 mins	7.6	5.6	9.0
Goals	2	1	5
Assists	1	0	1
Big Chances Created	0	0	2
Completed Dribbles Per 90 mins	0.2	0.0	0.1
Source: https://www.footballcritic.com/harry-maguire/profile/4452#Decisive
Press A/W (%)	152/55 (36.2)	133/46 (34.6%)	26/18 (69%)
Press in Def 3rd	90	84	13
Press in Mid 3rd	57	37	11
Press in Att 3rd	5	12	2
Got Dribbled Past	11	12	12
Source: https://fbref.com/en/players/d8931174/dom_lg/Harry-Maguire-Domestic-League-Stats

As for your other comments. Yes De Ligt was sold that summer, but that didn't mean he was available for us to get. He had his heart set on Juve so Ajax sold him for a fair price (below market) as they normally do as a reward to players for many years of service in Ajax.

De Ligt didn't exactly set Serie A on fire either.

Other than him there wasn't really many solid CB's sold that summer. I wouldn't have minded getting De Ligt if that was possible, but then we would likely have needed to buy someone else to be club captain (and thus regular starter).


The dressing room influence I talked about is the responsibility of the club captain to enforce. The role is much more important off the field than on the field. As you said, on the field there can be many leaders in a team.
But also since technically only the captain is allowed to address the referee on the field in heated situations I'm glad we have someone like Maguire who I trust to keep his cool.

I wasn't aware that Ake is homegrown, my bad, but I also wouldn't have wanted him here. HG didn't add 30m to Maguire's price alone, but it probably added £10m as it did for Ake.

The over all package of factors that he was HG, Captain-material, reliable and available that summer added the £30++m of what he could have cost at another time.

 

[meamth]

People saying he is not a top level CB is surely a troll by now.

 

[GueRed]

one of the best centre-backs in the premier league this season.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Delighted for Harry to score for England. He has reallly come full circle since the Greek incident and getting sent off.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

See this performance has just been swept under the rug as usual. You’ve had people all season saying how brilliant Stones is, the second he’s out of his precious system and the walls tumble down again. Maguire is a massively superior player who would be phenomenal at City.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

See this performance has just been swept under the rug as usual. You’ve had people all season saying how brilliant Stones is, the second he’s out of his precious system and the walls tumble down again. Maguire is a massively superior player who would be phenomenal at City.

I've made the point multiple times during the season when people have made ridiculous claims about Maguire "not getting into any other top 6 side" etc, despite the fact that every single time we see them together on international duty, Maguire is clearly a much better player than John fecking Stones. You had justsomebloke at one point claiming the following:

Do we have a central defence pairing of title quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea probably does. Tottenham arguably does.

Which I argued at the time is utter bollocks when Chelsea had Zouma playing every week, Stones for City and Dier for Spurs.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Delighted for Harry to score for England. He has reallly come full circle since the Greek incident and getting sent off.

he’s done very well to have come back quickly from that.

we had people in here calling for him to be sold, stripped of the captaincy, to be sent on a sabbatical.

he’s been excellent for 2 seasons for us and longer for England, bar those few weeks.

 

[Adam-Utd]

he’s done very well to have come back quickly from that.

we had people in here calling for him to be sold, stripped of the captaincy, to be sent on a sabbatical.

he’s been excellent for 2 seasons for us and longer for England, bar those few weeks.

Yep. Let's not forget he joined from Leicester and instantly became the captain of Man United, that is huge pressure. He's dealt with it really well and considering what he went through everything else will feel like a doddle.

 

[TheReligion]

Looked by far the more superior CB than Stones for England.

Guess people won't mention that though.

 

[Marcus]

Well done Captain!

 

[Dve]

For some reason, many fans seem blind to Maguire´s qualities, and I suspect they only watch United games and never see players like Ramos, Varane, Koulibaly getting beaten by their opponent. Or making a mistake, like giving the ball away in dangerous positions. Happens to every defender, but to Maguire less than most. Both he and Lindelöf are very reliable defenders.

 

[bsCallout]

For some reason, many fans seem blind to Maguire´s qualities, and I suspect they only watch United games and never see players like Ramos, Varane, Koulibaly getting beaten by their opponent. Or making a mistake, like giving the ball away in dangerous positions. Happens to every defender, but to Maguire less than most. Both he and Lindelöf are very reliable defenders.

He's captain of Manchester United and came for a huge fee. They get scrutinized to the max, obsessed over even. Like Pogba.

I wish our own fans would support our players. I guess they don't like the banter from their mates when a clip of Maguire getting taken on is on every page on the internet.

Must be exhausting for the players too. I don't think another club comes close to getting the attention and scrutiny ours does. Could you imagine United having a season like Liverpool are?

 

[He'sRaldo]

Could you imagine United having a season like Liverpool are?

We've had quite a few similar seasons in the past decade.

 

[lsd]

Looked by far the more superior CB than Stones for England.

Guess people won't mention that though.

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with him playing for United

 

[Harold_Giles]

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with him playing for United

If he had made some mistakes and had a shit game with England, you can be sure this thread would be swarming with posts slagging him off.

 

[TheReligion]

Because it has absolutely nothing to do with him playing for United

Erm okay. What's your point sorry?