Yes it really is..
Solskjaer's contract
- Thread starter Amir
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
It’s finished. I’ve got hope the sacking and resignation of Ed Woodward might be the only thing to save us.
I think the future will look very bleak for us If we give OGS a new contract. Cavani is going to leave, Pogba too we need to replace them and get more additions in, we need a manager that can get the best out of the squad we have right now and Ole for me, is failing at that. Yeah we can say progress this and progress that, but progress is giving City a real run for their money, like what Liverpool did before they eventually won it, not finishing 20+ points behind them.
Because the team that OGS took over was not even close to the City side in terms of depth and quality and quite behind Pool in terms of quality. Even when people were expecting ZZ to take over, no one would have demanded the league straight-away. Hell, the mismanagement of the team in terms of not just recruitment but also in terms of hiring managers has meant that it'd take any new manager a lot more time to make us contenders, let alone champions.
If Zidane delivered exactly what Ole has would you be happy?
Which of our players do you think we can get so much more out of that we aren't getting now?
Not entirely, three years without a trophy isn't great by any account. But again Zidane in less than 5 years in Madrid has amassed two league titles, as many European cups as united have won in their history, two domestic cups, a handful of supercups and fifa club world cups. Solskjaer meanwhile has....a Norwegian title to his name? I don't actually want Zidane as our manager, but the difference is I'd feel more confident with him being able to actually win us major honours from our current position, I'm just not convinced Ole would take us a step further.
Zidane also had one of the greatest players of all time (at his peak even) in his team.
If he inherited that squad and made our team into what it is today, yes. Ole's ideas for squad building have been fantastic. He knew that the rebuild will take time, so instead of signing players who're 28 or so, he brought in younger players so that these players are hitting the peak when rebuild ends thereby maximizing our chances of silverware. Obviously, there is a bit of gamble here as well, because quite a few players don't fulfill their potential, but I am atleast confident that even if it doesn't work out for us, the next manager wouldn't have a massive rebuild on his hands.
This is true, but doesn't cheapen how much of a triumph he's been there. How many exceptional players did Madrid have during their decade long European trophy drought from 2003? They had a squad with fat Ronaldo, Becks, R.Carlos, Figo, Raul and even Zidane himself that couldn't win a Champions league between 2003 and 2013. Granted a couple of those players did win it in 2002 and earlier, but it still shows that with an ensemble of absolutely world class players its still not guaranteed to win some of the biggest prizes in European football. What Zidane has achieved in Madrid as manager is nothing short of remarkable, Cristiano or otherwise.
The more pertinent question to ask if how many European cups would Ole have won managing the same Madrid team from 2016 onwards?
Will not happen under the Glazers. We wont win anything significant this decade anyway.
In that case then the quality of the squad may be the largest factor. I always felt Zindane's status as a player was crucial to his ability to motivate and keep everyone pulling together toward the same goal. If it was as simple as that then it's entirely possible that Ole would have done well with the same squad as I'm sure everyone in that squad is aware of his exploits in the CL and his status as a legend at a top club. Maybe not 3 CLs well but surely could have won a trophy or two.
Biggest club in the world hasn't won a single trophy in 4 years and that's your reaction. No wonder the Glazers dont give a feck.
Was it that long ago, time really has flown!
Look at the squad Zidane took over compared to ours. The core of that team had already won a league title in 2011/12 against peak Barca and captured a CL in 2013/14 under Ancelotti. There were stars littered throughout the squad who were underperforming under Benitez and he got them fit and firing again. All credit to ZZ but the squad Ole inherited is nowhere near that.
How many genuine developed stars did Ole inherit? Pogba, DDG (who is in decline) and maybe Lukaku? Rashford and Martial were great talents, one of whom has played his best under Ole, while the other was at his best last year and completely gone off the boil this season.
He walked into a club which had last won a PL in 2013 with an entirely different core of players DDG aside. Our major accomplishments when he came in was finishing 2nd in 2017/18 largely because DDG performed like a god, a Europa League and League Cup in 2016/17, and an FA Cup in 2016.
This isn't a comparable situation to walking into a team that had Ronaldo, Benzema, Kroos, Modric, Ramos, Varane, Marcelo, Bale, and James.
Additionally he hasn't received the type of financial backing predecessors like LvG and Jose had been. He's still in the process of cleaning up their mistakes because we can offload so much deadwood. He's not blameless but I personally don't feel outside of maybe Pep or Klopp any manager could take over what he inherited and done much better. Our squad is so thin and devoid of quality that we had to play Andreas Pereira just under 2000 minutes, including ten 90s, before Bruno arrived at the end of January last season.
I can't put title winning expectations on Ole when we just don't have a squad capable of it. If that's a failure it's not one of his making, but his predecessor and our board.
Yep, unfortunately the last trophy we won was in 2017.
Presumably because the senior management at the club are happy with the work he has done and wish to show that. That would be the simplest explanation.
So why didn’t Benetiz do what Zidane did?
And that's why he was sacked. He was underperforming with a loaded squad.
Ole took over a broken squad that was sitting 6th having been thoroughly embarrassed by City and Liverpool in toothless, timid performances.
In his first full season had them 3rd and now has them 2nd. Is that good enough? Ideally, absolutely not, but this isn't an ideally ran club.
He was not backed in the market despite achieving his targets last season. Still, he has us on pace to do considerably better in the league as far as points accumulated, and a good chance at a better finish in the table also.
If he's backed in the market the expectations should increase with that next season. As of now, I think he's doing close to what best we should expect given the squad at his disposal.
There's still 9 league matches left and the EL, which we should at the absolute least be getting to the finals of, so things can change from now to then. I wouldn't make any final decision until that point, but right now he's on track to have a season that I think deserves a modest payraise on a new deal.
Surely if he was going to be backed then we wouldn't keep hearing from journos suggesting we are going to be careful in this market and talk of only signing one established player in the summer, in regards to the coaching staff would really like to see someone experienced come in who understands tactics better than Carrick/McKenna/Phelan.
On evidence a bunch of posters here subscribe to the Abromovich "model" of hire and fire.
Yup, some do. As long as it guarantees trophies, they care less about stability.
Just to get this out of the way first: I think he's made some progress.
But this post is a bit rose-tinted. First he took over a broken squad, that had just finished on +80 points. Then he managed to finish third in his first full season and now on course to do better in the league. You'd expect so since in his first full season despite the final position we finished on 66 points. That's on par with LVG and 2 better than Moyes. In other words, terrible showing. I just wonder what would have happened had we not signed Bruno and watch him singlehandedly rescue our season.
He's making incremental progress, but next season he needs to be judged, good enough or not good enough. He shouldn't need loads of world class players either. No one is expecting the title, but people should be expecting the team to start performing consistently at a high level and finish on a healthy points tally in the league (+80).
I'm not saying I do tbh but it's served Chelsea well in all honesty. It's also a model used by the overwhelming majority of top clubs.
He was underperforming based on 1 mans opinion. I mean Frank Lampard was 50:50 with the fans on how he was performing. Now look they are 4th. It’s all based on opinions and as far as I’m concerned Ole is underperforming for the team he has.
underperforming. You think we should be winning the PL this season or seriously challenging?
how about progressing season on season.
Nope, it's mate. Weeks and weeks of droning out the same dull monotonous claptrap.
It's not even exclusive to this thread, just blah blah blah, whine whine whine.
I know who you are, you're the guy that pisses everybody off around him at matches with the constant moaning and whingeing.
One minute it's the managers crap, get someone better in waaaaaahhhh, the next it's the players are crap, how will we win with this lot...waaaaaaahh.
So yeah, my reaction is
Our current first choice midfield is Fred and McTominay. Our squad consisted of Pogba, Matic, Bruno and Van De Beek. He is underperforming and not getting the most out of the talented players we have. Anthony Martial is due to have his worse season since he’s been here. Arguable our second most naturally talented player. A good footballing structure investigates this. We have Darren Fletcher for seeing this. We’re fecked.
players don’t always perform. This happens under any manager.
martial had his best ever season last year...we all know his attitude stinks, the manager isint a miracle worker.
Bruno and Pogba play when fit. DVDB hasn’t settled.
we are 2nd, and have continually improved season on season.
perhaps fans should have some patience.
more maybe we start again and go and buy some more players under a different manager, and sack them when they don’t win the league within 2 years.
Yes this. Since Abramovich took over, Chelsea have won more trophies than any other prem club.
Something like 12 managers, 19 trophies.
Nope. You're wrong. It's not one minute that the next something else unfortunately for you. You don't know what you're talking about. Its never been the players are crap either. It's always been this manager is crap for me, I don't think he is good enough. That's my opinion, if that pisses you off I couldn't care less. Also, I've never once said "how will we win with this lot", I've never once said "the players are crap" either. Ι've always maintained we have one of the best squads. So it looks like you're talking nonsense, so yes I agree go back to sleep.Nope, it's mate. Weeks and weeks of droning out the same dull monotonous claptrap.
It's not even exclusive to this thread, just blah blah blah, whine whine whine.
I know who you are, you're the guy that pisses everybody off around him at matches with the constant moaning and whingeing.
One minute it's the managers crap, get someone better in waaaaaahhhh, the next it's the players are crap, how will we win with this lot...waaaaaaahh.
So yeah, my reaction is
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That squad he inherited outperformed every metric because DDG stood on his head. It was in terrible shape, bloated financially, and required major re-tooling, which it still does.
If we had not signed Bruno we'd be worse than we finished. With Bruno we've clearly gone up a level, 2nd in the league since his addition in points, where we currently sit in the table. I wonder where City would be in the table if they hadn't signed Diaz. Every manager needs players, once they get them it's about how you perform. When Ole has been handed his top targets we've seen improvement in performance.
He has 57 after 29 matches right now. We could well finish around 80 points. If he's backed I'd certainly expect marked improvement from there.
How is the fact VDB is not performing a reflection on the manager? If anything, the fact relatively limited players in Fred and McTominay can nail down a place by essentially the basics of midfield play - getting up and down the pitch, having energy and desire, putting their foot in and keeping things simple says a lot more about VDB's performances than anything else. They are not revolutionising midfield play, but they show that it is a position and role in the team that is there to be played if you're up to it. The manager is not there to mollycoddle the players, whether they are new signings or not. They have to perform.
The same thing with Martial. At this point what does "arguably our second most talented player" mean in real terms when we have gone through many years of inconsistency with Martial? We're not talking about Hannibal or perhaps more pertinently Greenwood where we are hoping talent turns into consistent performer, it's not just about talent. The guy has to perform. If he can have one of his best seasons under Ole then the question has to be at what point do reasons surrounding the manager, his role, tactics begin to wear pretty thin?
He was underperforming based on most Madrid supporters opinion at the time and his players despised playing for him.
Frank was backed richly in the market and his team regressed. Ole was not backed in the market and the team has improved. See the difference?
If we spent like Chelsea and weren't putting in a title challenge I'd want Ole out. Did you really believe that with the addition of Cavani, Telles, and VdB to the first team we should be pushing for the title with 90 points or more? If so we just have very different expectations of what could be expected of any manager given the current United squad.
We may disagree about the 2nd Jose season (I think there are more factors than Dave) and of course managers have an easier job when they get the players they want. But after two and a half year in the job, which it will have been at the start of next season, I expect Ole to start doing what the best managers do, getting more out of the team than the sum of its parts. That requires a vision and coaching. Of course he'll get some players in the summer, but if he doesn't sign Haaland and Sancho it's not like he won't have to continue the progression, and up it quite a bit too. That's my expectation anyway. I think most would have the same expectation if he had a different name.
Since Ole was appointed you've spent more than us. Bit rich to say Ole hasn't been backed (pun intended).
Sure, and he has United above you in the table this year after spending a pittance compared to Chelsea this summer. He also finished above Chelsea last year, so unless the target at the start of last season was getting on par with City and Liverpool last season, or this season challenging for the title he seems to have United on an upward trajectory and in line with any reasonable expectation of the squad he's been given.
If he doesn't get meaningful quality in the window his name could be Steven Gerrard and I wouldn't have any different expectation of him. When you see the quality City have brought in year-on-year comparative to United, and then stack the squads up side-by-side, the expectations should be relative. Nobody other than SAF is taking this current United squad up against City on a 90+ point title challenge this year.
If he is backed I will certainly hold him to a higher standard, but sorry, I'm not going to be up in arms about where we are in the league with the squad we have.
Awesome, respond to criticism by spouting the same shit. And claiming the critic knows nothing.
Come on then, let's hear your great plans. Maybe we could put them forward to the owners.
It has to be more detailed the managers crap let's hire xyz though.