[Abraxas]

You make some good points, but I'm curious as to where you heard that and how recently.

Donny was good as a sub vs Latvia yesterday. Didn't play in the previous game, but he did score the deciding and only goal vs both Italy and Spain in the previous international break.

He's definitely had poor performances before that (though nothing exceptionally bad), but he's been suprisingly good lately for the boys in orange.

VDB has played 14 EL and 29 CL matches at Ajax. Not all against great opposition or as a starter, but enough to make a decent sample size.

Good post though, just wanted to raise a ? on these 2 points.

Perhaps "awful" was an exaggeration. I believe it was here that a Holland national watcher suggested he'd been pretty poor. I am not going to claim to have watched the games but I took that at face value having tried to find out more information on the performances and my reading was he didn't seem to be much involved in matches.

I guess the overall point as far as we are concerned is that the loss of confidence seems to have seeped into his displays elsewhere, whatever the initial causes were. If we were hoping he could "find his form" with Holland, as some players seem to be able to mentally separate club and national performances, then unfortunately that seems unlikely.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Perhaps "awful" was an exaggeration. I believe it was here that a Holland national watcher suggested he'd been pretty poor. I am not going to claim to have watched the games but I took that at face value having tried to find out more information on the performances and my reading was he didn't seem to be much involved in matches.

I guess the overall point as far as we are concerned is that the loss of confidence seems to have seeped into his displays elsewhere, whatever the initial causes were. If we were hoping he could "find his form" with Holland, as some players seem to be able to mentally separate club and national performances, then unfortunately that seems unlikely.

He's been a bit anonymous for Oranje, but yesterday he was quite lively, even had a shot on goal.

He wasnt as good as Klaassen though and it was aganst Latvia, they're not an amazing team. Let's wait and see how he stacks up against mighty Gibraltar on Tuesday. They're owned by England after all and they invented football.

 

[Abraxas]

They also arent 23 and in their first season at the club. Thats the point. Lindelof had the worst start I've seen from a United player and Fred didn't look up to standard in his first season either. Now they're doing better than they did in their first season. I fully expect VDB will do the same and do better in the future and having seen these other players do that, I cant see why our fans wouldnt foresee the same

Well, I guess it's not necessarily a matter of foreseeing or believing in some way for all our fans. If that's a disposition that helps you to be patient with signings then it's all well and good, there's no harm in it.

The proof is in the pudding and it will be evidence based. These things can go either way. I wouldn't rule anything out, I usually think a couple of seasons is a good point at which to fully analyse things so we will see. It will be interesting to see if we try something different with his role and position, or whether it's something that is training ground based or to do with mental approach. Because doing the same thing again and again when it's not worked for the best part of a season would be strange.

 

[BusbyMalone]

He's actually played a lot more minutes than I would have guessed.

PREMIER LEAGUE
Played: 13
Starting eleven: 2
Substituted in: 11
Total Mins: 311
Goal: 1
Assists: 0

FA CUP
Played: 4
Starting eleven: 4
Total Mins: 293
Goal: 0
Assists: 0

UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE
Played: 6
Starting eleven: 3
Substituted in: 3
Total Mins: 276
Goals: 0
Assists: 0


EFL CUP
Played: 4
Starting eleven: 3
Substituted in: 1
Total Mins: 237
Goals: 0
Assists: 1


1117 Minutes overall.

It doesn’t feel like he’s played anywhere near that. I don't think it's a million miles off from Daniel James, and he seems like he's been playing all the time recently.

 

[Ekeke]

Well, I guess it's not necessarily a matter of foreseeing or believing in some way for all our fans. If that's a disposition that helps you to be patient with signings then it's all well and good, there's no harm in it.

The proof is in the pudding and it will be evidence based. These things can go either way. I wouldn't rule anything out, I usually think a couple of seasons is a good point at which to fully analyse things so we will see. It will be interesting to see if we try something different with his role and position, or whether it's something that is training ground based or to do with mental approach. Because doing the same thing again and again when it's not worked for the best part of a season would be strange.

I will stress though when we pay £40+ million for a player, I am expecting them to be great within those first 2 seasons. If it takes any longer than that it was a clear misuse of money. Ideally the first season

 

[lex talionis]

An excellent discussion over that dozen or posts here. I would just add, or perhaps emphasize, that Donny did look the part in his first few appearances for United. But after having been frozen out for so long his confidence has indeed been shredded.

What is clear now is that Donny isn’t the kind of footballer Ole needs. Whether Donny can or wants to become that kind of footballer remains to be seen, but I’m not sure where the path for Donny in a squad which has Bruno, who in every way is the better and more impactful footballer. I can’t imagine Donny envisions himself as a long tem squad man for United, and at least at this point I don’t see Bruno going anywhere.

 

[VP89]

He's actually played a lot more minutes than I would have guessed.

PREMIER LEAGUE
Played: 13
Starting eleven: 2
Substituted in: 11
Total Mins: 311
Goal: 1
Assists: 0

FA CUP
Played: 4
Starting eleven: 4
Total Mins: 293
Goal: 0
Assists: 0

UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE
Played: 6
Starting eleven: 3
Substituted in: 3
Total Mins: 276
Goals: 0
Assists: 0


EFL CUP
Played: 4
Starting eleven: 3
Substituted in: 1
Total Mins: 237
Goals: 0
Assists: 1


1117 Minutes overall.

It doesn’t feel like he’s played anywhere near that. I don't think it's a million miles off from Daniel James, and he seems like he's been playing all the time recently.

Problem is most of these appearances are with the second team, and broken up in starts. I don't think he's had a back to back start yet? Whereas James certainly has had flurries of appearances - so it's very, very difficult to make an impact when you consider that too.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Problem is most of these appearances are with the second team, and broken up in starts. I don't think he's had a back to back start yet? Whereas James certainly has had flurries of appearances - so it's very, very difficult to make an impact when you consider that too.

Yeah, I made that point before when I was trying to defend him a bit. He typically comes into a changed side where all rhythm and momentum is lost, and we inevitably play quite poorly overall. Either that or he comes on for 15-20 minutes at the end of the game for rotation's sake. Obviously he needs to do much more when he does get the chance, there's no denying that. Some personal responsibility needs to be taken.

Still, I was surprised to see that many minutes. It doesn't seem like he's even played that much, which says it all really. He's often very anonymous.

 

[KirkDuyt]

If there ever was a match to boost his confidence... Come on Frank, sub him in for his twin Klaassen.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Yeaaah get in Donny boy.

 

[Trex]

Was watching a YouTube compilation of Dvb 19/20, technically he looked class plus he had that fire in his belly, shocked to see him carrying the ball forward, beating players, playing incisive football, there really is a player in there if we could get him going.

 

[Trex]

Was watching a YouTube compilation of Dvb 19/20, technically he looked class plus he had that fire in his belly, shocked to see him carrying the ball forward, beating players, playing incisive football, there really is a player in there if we could get him going, plus the idea that he is just a system player, who gives it to the more creative players isn't true, he is quite direct with the ball.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Nice for him to get another goal for Holland, took his goal well. Holland had a lot of players moving in the box, this does suit him. He didn't have much of an influence other than the goal, but took the goal very well and was more clinical than Klaassen who's missed a lot of chances (but gets into great positions, very often).

It seems like the pecking order is something like Frenkie, Wijnaldum, Klaassen, de Roon, Gravenberch, Donny for the 3 midfield positions, also depending on the match.

 

[Terranova]

Nice for him to get another goal for Holland, took his goal well. Holland had a lot of players moving in the box, this does suit him. He didn't have much of an influence other than the goal, but took the goal very well and was more clinical than Klaassen who's missed a lot of chances (but gets into great positions, very often).

It seems like the pecking order is something like Frenkie, Wijnaldum, Klaassen, de Roon, Gravenberch, Donny for the 3 midfield positions, also depending on the match.

For now it is the pecking order, because he hasn't played much. It used to be De Jong, Wijnaldum, de Roon, Donny. Though De Roon is there for some reason nobody can understand.

 

[AjaxCunian]

For now it is the pecking order, because he hasn't played much. It used to be De Jong, Wijnaldum, de Roon, Donny. Though De Roon is there for some reason nobody can understand.

I read something that out of the last 43 goals, only 1 has been with de Roon on the pitch.

It is true that Donny isnt playing, but Klaassen and Gravenberch have been excellent for Ajax and are "new" in the Dutch NT, if Donny gets minute again, I am still uncertain whether he'd be ahead of them.

 

[sullydnl]

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Thing is, if he was signed in anticipation of Pogba potentially leaving then why has he barely been used in that position, even when Pogba was out injured?

I mean I absolutely assumed he would be stepping in for both Bruno and Pogba this season, because his ability to play in both those positions is the only reason I thought his signing made sense. But we've pretty much only used him as Bruno back-up.

 

[Matriac]

Thing is, if he was signed in anticipation of Pogba potentially leaving then why has he barely been used in that position, even when Pogba was out injured?

I mean I absolutely assumed he would be stepping in for both Bruno and Pogba this season, because his ability to play in both those positions is the only reason I thought his signing made sense. But we've pretty much only used him as Bruno back-up.

Cause Donny got injured (in training?) pretty much at the same time as Pogba. Almost exactly. (And there were some games where it made more sense to play McFred).

 

[DON’T PANIC ™]

Did anyone notice, did VDB touch the ball after coming on against Brighton?

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

It's funny - and very VDB - that he was on for 14 minutes yet had 0 passes, 0 dribbles, 0 touches in general, 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, 0 pressures, 0 fouls.

 

[Godfather]

Best hide and seek performance I've seen yet

 

[Drainy]

In fairness, his movement did create space for others though obviously you would expect more in 15 mins

 

[mu4c_20le]

It's funny - and very VDB - that he was on for 14 minutes yet had 0 passes, 0 dribbles, 0 touches in general, 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, 0 pressures, 0 fouls.

+/- : +1 for being on the pitch when we scored.

 

[SwedishFish]

Man of the match with his dragging run. /thread

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

2 weeks ago Gullit said his strength is when without the ball. Gray and Keys were laughing. Well, Gullit wasn't wrong.

 

[Woodenlung]

Tbf I'd sooner agree with the opinion of Ruud Gullet that those two shams.

 

[horsechoker]

If football was played with 12 men, I'd have him as the twelfth, no dowabowthat

 

[SAFMUTD]

It's funny - and very VDB - that he was on for 14 minutes yet had 0 passes, 0 dribbles, 0 touches in general, 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, 0 pressures, 0 fouls.

8 minutes on the pitch, but zero freaking touches, no interaction that can be meassured against a stat besides running.

Surely must be some kind of record?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It's funny - and very VDB - that he was on for 14 minutes yet had 0 passes, 0 dribbles, 0 touches in general, 0 tackles, 0 interceptions, 0 pressures, 0 fouls.

That’s actually kind of brilliant. I wonder if it’s a record of some sort.

 

[Abraxas]

I think it's a little unfair to read much into this one. We were not very impressive in seeing out the game, which given we scored relatively soon after he came on didn't give many of our forwards much of a kick in the last 5 mins or so. We seemed to be kicking it aimlessly forward, giving silly free kicks away and generally wasting time in ways that did not correspond with us having possession, and as he was relatively high there wasn't much to work with.

That said, he could have at least kicked the ball once!

 

[ThehatchetMan]

I'm one of his biggest critics but his introduction did influence the game whether he touched the ball or not, and without his movement we wouldn't of scored the goal to win the game.

So for that reason I think he did well and I think Ole would of been pleased with his impact too.

 

[#CR7]

His movement in the build up to our goal was elite. He made 3 or 4 separate runs in the space of 10 seconds to create the space and would've probably scored the goal if greenwood didn't get there before him

 

[Mr. Ant]

I sometimes wonder whether people actually watch football? If it wasn't for his run where he dragged the brighton defender off position Bruno wouldn't have a free channel to run into and we wouldn't have scored the winning goal.

I think people just made up their mind long time ago and think he's shit even though he's just not used to our individualist style of play.
He came from a team where the movement and one touch passing is essential to a team where he is expected to dribble with the ball and think of something to unlock the defence.

It's up to him if he can adapt to our style of play but I think quicker passes and more movement would suit our team a lot. I can only dream I guess.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

I sometimes wonder whether people actually watch football? If it wasn't for his run where he dragged the brighton defender off position Bruno wouldn't have a free channel to run into and we wouldn't have scored the winning goal.

I think people just made up their mind long time ago and think he's shit even though he's just not used to our individualist style of play.
He came from a team where the movement and one touch passing is essential to a team where he is expected to dribble with the ball and think of something to unlock the defence.

It's up to him if he can adapt to our style of play but I think quicker passes and more movement would suit our team a lot. I can only dream I guess.

If it's true that he didn't touch the ball then it's probably justified criticism today

 

[Mr. Ant]

If it's true that he didn't touch the ball then it's probably justified criticism today

My point is we have only Donny and Cavani who are good enough without the ball. Our play is far too static with no movement.

Of course Donny needs to do better and he needs to adapt but he needs time to do that. His confidence is probably non-existent and he doesn't play at all.

But tonight I don't care if he didn't touch the ball. His run got us the three points and that's all that matters in a match where we couldn't do anything in the first 45 minutes.

 

[lsd]

2 weeks ago Gullit said his strength is when without the ball. Gray and Keys were laughing. Well, Gullit wasn't wrong.

Could be some truth in that. It is weird how he has played apart in some goals this season by not touching the ball

 

[horsechoker]

Silent domination

 

[Red00012]

I sometimes wonder whether people actually watch football? If it wasn't for his run where he dragged the brighton defender off position Bruno wouldn't have a free channel to run into and we wouldn't have scored the winning goal.

I think people just made up their mind long time ago and think he's shit even though he's just not used to our individualist style of play.
He came from a team where the movement and one touch passing is essential to a team where he is expected to dribble with the ball and think of something to unlock the defence.

It's up to him if he can adapt to our style of play but I think quicker passes and more movement would suit our team a lot. I can only dream I guess.

He never touched the ball .

 

[lex talionis]

Today is not the day to flog, or mock, Donny.

 

[Adam-Utd]

He never touched the ball .

Who cares? we played against a parked bus and he played in the box. He helped make the 2nd goal with his movement to open space for Bruno's run, that's all that matters.

I'd rather he have 0 touches and help the team than just stand up front hoofing the ball out of the pitch like Cavani.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Today is not the day to flog, or mock, Donny.

I know, but his sole presence... almost like Jesus from the Bible.