We lack basic technical ability

[OrcaFat]

In a season where quite a few big teams are underperforming. Especially Liverpool and Chelsea.

The truth is somewhere in the middle as usual

Yeah it’s a season where we’re performing better than all the big teams. Especially Liverpool and Chelsea. And Arsenal and Spurs. But not City, fair enough. The truth is in the number of points amassed, as usual.

 

[JakeC]

Complains about lack of technique.
Wants our most technical player gone.

 

[JakeC]

I've seen Fred do everything, from dribbling past players, controling the ball nicely and executing beautiful through passes, I have seen him feck up loads too.

I've also seen AWB do wounders with the ball at his feet, I've seen him feck up too.

So if you are asking do our players have the basic technical ability on the ball, I'd say they do, some of them are actually highly technical like Bruno, Pogba and Shaw, Martial on his day is a wizard on the ball, Greenwood is two footed, Matic manipulates the ball so good too, Mata is a magician, and Rashford has shown us what amazing things he can with the the ball on his feet.

Just because you see these players feck up with simple passes and touches many times during the game does not mean they lack basic technical ability.

Good post. Honestly it feels like we have a team full of Nanis and Andersons at the moment. Capable of the sublime, and the indefensible.

 

[Cassidy]

Yeah it’s a season where we’re performing better than all the big teams. Especially Liverpool and Chelsea. And Arsenal and Spurs. But not City, fair enough. The truth is in the number of points amassed, as usual.

Yes and Liverpool and Chelsea will likely amass alot more next season

 

[wolvored]

Next season when we should be challenging for the title is when it will really show how basic our coaching is. 2nd will be a millstone around Oles neck as to improve he needs to win the league. This wont happen. I have noticed the decline in form of Bruno is a long term thing. Hes definitely not the player he was when he joined. Thats got to be the lack of quality training as well.

 

[Lay]

We take too long to pass the ball. Starts from the goalkeeper (mainly DDG). As soon as we spring some quick passes, we look dangerous.

But we will fiddle about with the ball, take a touch too many and opposing sides just move side to side easily

 

[sglowrider]

The basics are very poor.

was it not alexis agent who said that training was embarrassing?

Top 2 is only possible due to how poor everyone else has been and not how good utd have been

Yeap. I rather have a top, top coach like Arteta and be in 10th position than a PE teacher in 2nd in the table.

 

[Machine Elements]

Only took 4 posts before the bullshit reared it's head.

What bullshit? Do you honestly think we're a good coached team? Really? Or is it bullshit because it doesn't suit your agenda?

We're still shit at playing out from the back 2,5 years into his reign. And that's after spending £150 m on defence to replace some defenders like Smalling, Valencia/Dalot etc. + getting a new goalkeeper. So you can't blame player quality as most of that back 5 five are his players. I've explained that before.

We're shit at creating chances from open play. Most of our goals come from counter attacks no matter who the opposition team is. Even after spending a fortune, we're the ultimate underdogs and that's how we got our wins against City etc. But I'm sure that's not down to coaching.

As opposed to the OP, we clearly have some serious technical quality in our team. And despite that, we're a reactive team that always start slow in nearly all of our games, only start to play after conceding. Rather than a team that play on the front foot, taking the game to the opposition. But of course that's definitely not because of Ole and his coaching.

We're shit at set pieces. Both in defending and attacking. That's also only on players, Woodward/Glazers, spoiled fans, tea lady etc.

But hey, we won against the mighty Brighton at OT so we must act like everything's perfect I reckon. If we hadn't won this game, these kind of threads would be full of hate and blame for some of the easy targets like Fred, Woodward etc. ignoring the apparent fact that our (lack of) coaching is the main problem.

 

[sglowrider]

No what we lack are fans with technical abilities to judge.

Fixed

 

[Majima]

We did the basics very well under LVG with worse players, make of that what you will.

We used to dominate possession for fun under LVG with average midfields. I remember us having 70% possession at Stamford Bridge to a title winning Chelsea with a midfield of Herrera, Fellaini, and Rooney.

We've now got a midfield containing two of the best midfielders in the world, yet we struggle to even string a few passes together at times.

 

[Flexdegea]

Yes Redcafe, its another thread of complaints and negativity.

To make my own positions clear; I am Ole-in, Pogba-out, and think our #1 priority this summer should be to try to sign Haaland.

Now the actual point - I am watching the game against Brighton and the thing that stands out to me is that - compared with virtually every other team in the league - we seem to have a lot of players who simply lack basic technical competence.
I am defining technical ability as things like first touch, ball control and passing. Things that you should pretty much take for granted in any professional footballer. We have too many players who are deficient in these areas. This isnt a thread about naming names or trying to blame specific players because I believe it is a problem with the entire squad, but there are certainly some more culpable than others. Fred and AWB come to mind - but again, they arent the only ones.

The result of this is that we rarely seem to score goals from well worked pieces of play. Most of our goals are either counterattacks, set pieces or individual brilliance. We struggle to maintain possession and to beat the press, because too many of our players simply arent comfortable on the ball.

If you look at basically any other team in the league, especially the midfielders and forwards, they are technically sound players, comfortable on the ball and able to do the basics with a 90%+ success rate. It isnt about being able to play a killer pass or take on 5 players, its about the basics;

* Simple 10-yard passes are too often sloppy/imprecise. This invites pressure and often kills any momentum.
* First touches when recieving the ball. Again, these are often sloppy, leading to the classic "second touch is a tackle" syndrome.
* Holding the ball under pressure. This makes us too easy to play against and spoils a lot of opportunities to counterattack - you beat a press by either crisp short passing, or by beating a man - we dont reliably do either.

I think there are some significant holes in the squad that need addressing, but in order to strengthen as a team, we need our players to be comfortable on the ball. This doesnt mean a £60m playmaker, this simply means players who can do the basics (and then presumably have some key strengths on top of this - we dont want a squad of Tom Cleverleys). Dont look at the other team teams in the league, look at the mid table sides. Look at the ~6th place sides in La Liga. You will not see so many players who are so uncomfortable on the ball as ours.

I always laugh at these sort of posts.


Spoken like someone who never played football at any level be it pitch or in the street.



Mircoscoping the process based around the belief in their mind that we should be pinging everything perfect like a robot.....like a game with set out perimeters........bizarre

 

[Mindhunter]

What bullshit? Do you honestly think we're a good coached team? Really? Or is it bullshit because it doesn't suit your agenda?

We're still shit at playing out from the back 2,5 years into his reign. And that's after spending £150 m on defence to replace some defenders like Smalling, Valencia/Dalot etc. + getting a new goalkeeper. So you can't blame player quality as most of that back 5 five are his players. I've explained that before.

We're shit at creating chances from open play. Most of our goals come from counter attacks no matter who the opposition team is. Even after spending a fortune, we're the ultimate underdogs and that's how we got our wins against City etc. But I'm sure that's not down to coaching.

As opposed to the OP, we clearly have some serious technical quality in our team. And despite that, we're a reactive team that always start slow in nearly all of our games, only start to play after conceding. Rather than a team that play on the front foot, taking the game to the opposition. But of course that's definitely not because of Ole and his coaching.

We're shit at set pieces. Both in defending and attacking. That's also only on players, Woodward/Glazers, spoiled fans, tea lady etc.

But hey, we won against the mighty Brighton at OT so we must act like everything's perfect I reckon. If we hadn't won this game, these kind of threads would be full of hate and blame for some of the easy targets like Fred, Woodward etc. ignoring the apparent fact that our (lack of) coaching is the main problem.

Relax. We are second in the league. Of course some of our players aren't technically the best in the league but so what? There is an insane amount of confirmation bias going on in this forum. Because we watch every second of every match we play, we are able to see patterns where there aren't any.

If you read through the match threads of any top club when they are losing, you will see similar comments. Every fanbase thinks their players are wank and can't trap a ball when they are losing. We go one step further to find negatives even when we win against a tough opposition basically expecting the team to play on the front foot all the time with high intensity, penetration, and incisive passing in the final third resulting in a 3 goal cushion by half-time. It's unrealistic unless you are playing in a 1 team league.

Also, the bolded part is plain wrong if you take today's match as an example. We did start strong and then they grew into the game. Also there was an element of luck involved in their goal as the rebound went straight to Welbeck.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you. I know that technical ability is an area where we can improve but it is far from the doomsday scenario that you are painting on a day we went 5 points clear of the third placed team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We lack technical quality yet you want to sell Pogba and add Haaland to solve that.

 

[Eternitiy]

Shaw is technically flawless.

 

[Ramshock]

Jesus feckin Christ

 

[simonhch]

We should ban new posts in the football forum during matches. You just get nonsense like this posted.

 

[DRJosh]

The truth is somewhere in between. Coaching isn’t great and we don’t have awesome technical quality.

 

[simonhch]

What bullshit? Do you honestly think we're a good coached team? Really? Or is it bullshit because it doesn't suit your agenda?

We're still shit at playing out from the back 2,5 years into his reign. And that's after spending £150 m on defence to replace some defenders like Smalling, Valencia/Dalot etc. + getting a new goalkeeper. So you can't blame player quality as most of that back 5 five are his players. I've explained that before.

We're shit at creating chances from open play. Most of our goals come from counter attacks no matter who the opposition team is. Even after spending a fortune, we're the ultimate underdogs and that's how we got our wins against City etc. But I'm sure that's not down to coaching.

As opposed to the OP, we clearly have some serious technical quality in our team. And despite that, we're a reactive team that always start slow in nearly all of our games, only start to play after conceding. Rather than a team that play on the front foot, taking the game to the opposition. But of course that's definitely not because of Ole and his coaching.

We're shit at set pieces. Both in defending and attacking. That's also only on players, Woodward/Glazers, spoiled fans, tea lady etc.

But hey, we won against the mighty Brighton at OT so we must act like everything's perfect I reckon. If we hadn't won this game, these kind of threads would be full of hate and blame for some of the easy targets like Fred, Woodward etc. ignoring the apparent fact that our (lack of) coaching is the main problem.

We are second. After finishing third last season. Clearly we aren’t a poorly coached team.

It is “well coached”, not “good coached”.

Goals from counter attacks are goals from open play last time I checked.

We have the second best defensive record in the league, despite conceding 9 vs Palace and Spurs at the start of the season when we’d had no ore-season at all. We’ve also scored the second most goals in the league.

These are not the stats of a poorly coached team. Yours is the post of an unhinged fan.

 

[gerdm07]

Shaw - his technique is almost flawless each match
Maguire - very good receiving and passing technique. His receiving with the outside of his right foot is very good.
Lindelof - very good technique in receiving and turning with the ball and heading up field
Pogba - our best technical player and you want to sell him. Hmmm
Bruno - very technical player. He loses the ball not with technique, but with too much aggressive decisions
Greenwood - very good technical player, is still learning how to deal with good defenders though as they nick the ball away from him too often

Fred - does not have soft feet and coaching can't improve that
McT - also does not have soft feet and his vision is suspect, two things you can't really coach

Given the above, it's not a coaching problem IMO. We need a good passing DM and our passing will improve considerably.

 

[gerdm07]

Yes and Liverpool and Chelsea will likely amass alot more next season

And I think with a couple of good purchases we will amass more points next season also.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I’m not happy about that. I just don’t blame the coach for some of the players being technically inadequate.

To be clear, I’m not happy to be 2nd and several points away from being first. But I am happy that we are getting more points than last year and I am enjoying watching the team. When 2nd under Jose I was less happy; by the end, the players seemed out of control and Jose was visibly rattled. But I’m pretty sure no-one was expecting Jose, at any point, to imbue the likes of Fellaini with top class technique.

You can when the manager signs them.

 

[Halftrack]

We're shit at creating chances from open play.

We're shit at set pieces. Both in defending and attacking.

Yes, this makes perfect sense and is definitely a fair description of the attacking prowess of the *checks notes* second highest scoring team in the league.

 

[roonster09]

Yes, this makes perfect sense and is definitely a fair description of the attacking prowess of the *checks notes* second highest scoring team in the league.

So we are shit at creating chances from open play, shit at attacking set pieces and shit finishers, we have shit coach too and somehow we are second in the league and also have good scoring record.

Maybe we have 3-4 GOATs playing for us to mask all the problems.

 

[Halftrack]

So we are shit at creating chances from open play, shit at attacking set pieces and shit finishers, we have shit coach too and somehow we are second in the league and also have good scoring record.

Maybe we have 3-4 GOATs playing for us to mask all the problems.

Like their fans, all our opponents think Ole is a joke and want us to keep him because it makes it easier for them. Problem is we won't keep him if our results are shit, so they're letting us score and win to prevent Ole from getting sacked.

 

[sglowrider]

So we are shit at creating chances from open play, shit at attacking set pieces and shit finishers, we have shit coach too and somehow we are second in the league and also have good scoring record.

Maybe we have 3-4 GOATs playing for us to mask all the problems.

It's just a feckin' mystery

 

[Fridge chutney]

I mean, it's demonstrably untrue that we, as a squad, lack basic technical ability. We rank in the top 6 or better in most "technical" metrics league-wide.

 

[Borys]

It's not an issue. We have some players with excellent technical ability (Shaw, Bruno, Greenwood), most are decent (AWB, Pogba, McTominay, Rashford) and I'd say only Fred stands out as a bit "random first touch" kind of player.

Coaching is key, because well coached players know how to move off the ball and suddenly there is much more space to operate for attackers etc.

Coaching is non existent for current united team. And I believe we have some really good players now.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Equally just because a player can sometimes do something special doesn't mean they're highly technical.

I think the true marker of top technique is consistency. So even when they're not playing well their touch and passing is still there.

I'd say Maguire, Shaw and Mata are in that category. Maybe Lindelof.

The rest are all over the place, which to me is proof their technical ability is lacking. They might make up for it with other assets but it's still the case.

I think using the phrase "basic technical ability" confuses the debate a bit. Obviously they can do basics. It's more about touch and passing being good enough to break down a well drilled team.

The caveat to all this is Bruno. He's just confusing. Better at forty yard passes than four yard passes.

Sometimes, Bruno executes beautiful simple touches that takes out a defender and allows one of our players to bomb forward, his pass yesterday to Rashford was perfect although it was a simple 5 yards pass.

 

[OrcaFat]

Yes and Liverpool and Chelsea will likely amass alot more next season

Probably so. But we might also do better next year - the trend is up so why not. No point in assuming Liv and Chelsea will get more than us - most people probably assumed that this year.

 

[OrcaFat]

You can when the manager signs them.

I suppose so. You can also blame the manager for selecting them. But you also have to look at the options and where that will lead.

LVG had us looking technically fine but we lacked penetration and were rather dull. We need a couple of better players in midfield, they must be technically good but also athletically strong, intelligent and have good character and attitude. Such players don’t grow on trees but they are what we need.

 

[crossy1686]

What bullshit? Do you honestly think we're a good coached team? Really? Or is it bullshit because it doesn't suit your agenda?

We're still shit at playing out from the back 2,5 years into his reign. And that's after spending £150 m on defence to replace some defenders like Smalling, Valencia/Dalot etc. + getting a new goalkeeper. So you can't blame player quality as most of that back 5 five are his players. I've explained that before.

We're shit at creating chances from open play. Most of our goals come from counter attacks no matter who the opposition team is. Even after spending a fortune, we're the ultimate underdogs and that's how we got our wins against City etc. But I'm sure that's not down to coaching.

As opposed to the OP, we clearly have some serious technical quality in our team. And despite that, we're a reactive team that always start slow in nearly all of our games, only start to play after conceding. Rather than a team that play on the front foot, taking the game to the opposition. But of course that's definitely not because of Ole and his coaching.

We're shit at set pieces. Both in defending and attacking. That's also only on players, Woodward/Glazers, spoiled fans, tea lady etc.

But hey, we won against the mighty Brighton at OT so we must act like everything's perfect I reckon. If we hadn't won this game, these kind of threads would be full of hate and blame for some of the easy targets like Fred, Woodward etc. ignoring the apparent fact that our (lack of) coaching is the main problem.

What makes me laugh most is football fans with absolutely no experience of football at an elite level 'knowing' with absolute certainty that we're a 'poorly coached team'.

Let's just reflect on that comment and judgement for a second.

Manchester United, a giant club, former elite who's name still holds massive value, have staff at the club that cannot coach, despite having spent all their lives either playing football at an elite level or working as coaching staff at an elite level. So that's a serious dereliction of duty right?

If the staff can't coach then surely the players would be regressing? Surely they should all collectively getting worse? I wonder why none have them have spoken out about their careers slowly going down the shitter due to not receiving coaching on par with what is expected at an elite club? What does it also say about the clubs board? I mean, if they're allowing this circus to happen right under their nose then they must all be the most incompetent bunch of clowns ever right?

Obviously if we just had a manager like Pep then we'd be absolutely fine, we'd win the treble most seasons because coaching is the only issue and it's acutely apparent that this group of players are better than anything we've ever had under Fergie.

This is why your post is bullshit. It's an ill thought out jibe at the club as a whole because you believe we're run shockingly.

 

[crossy1686]

We used to dominate possession for fun under LVG with average midfields. I remember us having 70% possession at Stamford Bridge to a title winning Chelsea with a midfield of Herrera, Fellaini, and Rooney.

We've now got a midfield containing two of the best midfielders in the world, yet we struggle to even string a few passes together at times.

My favourite Van Gaal stat was the game where we played West Brom.

80% possession, we lost 1-0.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Yes and Liverpool and Chelsea will likely amass alot more next season

The same was said last season. For any rise expected of them, you have to say Utd are just as likely to match or go one better. There’s a real obsession with Chelsea in particular despite having a worse team than us.

 

[sglowrider]

What makes me laugh most is football fans with absolutely no experience of football at an elite level 'knowing' with absolute certainty that we're a 'poorly coached team'.

Let's just reflect on that comment and judgement for a second.

Manchester United, a giant club, former elite who's name still holds massive value, have staff at the club that cannot coach, despite having spent all their lives either playing football at an elite level or working as coaching staff at an elite level. So that's a serious dereliction of duty right?

If the staff can't coach then surely the players would be regressing? Surely they should all collectively getting worse? I wonder why none have them have spoken out about their careers slowly going down the shitter due to not receiving coaching on par with what is expected at an elite club? What does it also say about the clubs board? I mean, if they're allowing this circus to happen right under their nose then they must all be the most incompetent bunch of clowns ever right?

Obviously if we just had a manager like Pep then we'd be absolutely fine, we'd win the treble most seasons because coaching is the only issue and it's acutely apparent that this group of players are better than anything we've ever had under Fergie.

This is why your post is bullshit. It's an ill thought out jibe at the club as a whole because you believe we're run shockingly.

It's amazing how many miserable gits we have here. Imagine if we're like arsenal? We would lose half the caftards here. Suicide by football.

 

[sglowrider]

My favourite Van Gaal stat was the game where we played West Brom.

80% possession, we lost 1-0.

I am still suffering from PTSD from that match.

 

[Bobcat]

AWB, Fred, McTomminay, James imo have pretty poor technical ability for their respective positions. Not completely terrible, but below PL average for sure

Bruno, Shaw and Pogba obviously have natural technique which is way, way above average

The rest i feel are about average

And to the people who keep banging on about coaching. These guys have played organized football for 10+ years before they even got into the first team. The notion that some bloke can just show up and "coach" Fred into Pirlo is absurd

 

[OrcaFat]

It's not an issue. We have some players with excellent technical ability (Shaw, Bruno, Greenwood), most are decent (AWB, Pogba, McTominay, Rashford) and I'd say only Fred stands out as a bit "random first touch" kind of player.

Coaching is key, because well coached players know how to move off the ball and suddenly there is much more space to operate for attackers etc.

Coaching is non existent for current united team. And I believe we have some really good players now.

It is an issue in CM. The solution is not coaching but better players in that part of the pitch. We are doing very well despite this weakness because we are mainly playing to our strengths, this is the result of pragmatic coaching aimed at winning matches with the players we have.

Better players look like they have more space because they need less time on the ball and create space with technical skill. Coaching deficient players to run here or there will not make them technically more able, they will just lose the ball somewhere else. This is why some of our players are fine and some are not.

It’s not a huge issue, in a way, because it’s only one part of the pitch where it causes problems and the right signings would make it go away. There’s also no rush, in my view - we usually win and I really enjoy watching us - but a top class CM, if we can get one, would have a big impact on our game.

 

[crossy1686]

AWB, Fred, McTomminay, James imo have pretty poor technical ability for their respective positions. Not completely terrible, but below PL average for sure

Bruno, Shaw and Pogba obviously have natural technique which is way, way above average

The rest i feel are about average

And to the people who keep banging on about coaching. These guys have played organized football for 10+ years before they even got into the first team. The notion that some bloke can just show up and "coach" Fred into Pirlo is absurd

Whoah there, these kids aren't ready to hear these truth bombs yet.

 

[Jonno]

What bullshit? Do you honestly think we're a good coached team? Really? Or is it bullshit because it doesn't suit your agenda?

We're still shit at playing out from the back 2,5 years into his reign. And that's after spending £150 m on defence to replace some defenders like Smalling, Valencia/Dalot etc. + getting a new goalkeeper. So you can't blame player quality as most of that back 5 five are his players. I've explained that before.

We're shit at creating chances from open play. Most of our goals come from counter attacks no matter who the opposition team is. Even after spending a fortune, we're the ultimate underdogs and that's how we got our wins against City etc. But I'm sure that's not down to coaching.

As opposed to the OP, we clearly have some serious technical quality in our team. And despite that, we're a reactive team that always start slow in nearly all of our games, only start to play after conceding. Rather than a team that play on the front foot, taking the game to the opposition. But of course that's definitely not because of Ole and his coaching.

We're shit at set pieces. Both in defending and attacking. That's also only on players, Woodward/Glazers, spoiled fans, tea lady etc.

But hey, we won against the mighty Brighton at OT so we must act like everything's perfect I reckon. If we hadn't won this game, these kind of threads would be full of hate and blame for some of the easy targets like Fred, Woodward etc. ignoring the apparent fact that our (lack of) coaching is the main problem.

All the more remarkable that we're currently higher in the league than every PL team bar City, despite being...... sh!te in defence, creating chances, scoring goals that aren't from counters, set pieces both defending and attacking, and of course, coaching.

Honestly, this place.

 

[wolvored]

My favourite Van Gaal stat was the game where we played West Brom.

80% possession, we lost 1-0.

Reminds me of Fergie after Arsenal game. Commentator said Arsenal had 65% possession. Fergie said Aye and we won 4-2. Priceless