We lack basic technical ability

crossy1686

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Reminds me of Fergie after Arsenal game. Commentator said Arsenal had 65% possession. Fergie said Aye and we won 4-2. Priceless
Yep, possession means feck all if you don't put the ball in the back of the net. People seem to have forgotten how bad things were under Van Gaal for some reason, I keep seeing his name pop up lately.
 

wolvored

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Yep, possession means feck all if you don't put the ball in the back of the net. People seem to have forgotten how bad things were under Van Gaal for some reason, I keep seeing his name pop up lately.
I stopped watching quite a few games under VG. Snooze fest mainly.
 

Tallis

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In a weekend where we won, Chelsea lost, Leicester lost, Spurs drew, Arsenal were abysmal, somehow we have a thread where a number of our fans are bashing the team and manager.
 
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We used to dominate possession for fun under LVG with average midfields. I remember us having 70% possession at Stamford Bridge to a title winning Chelsea with a midfield of Herrera, Fellaini, and Rooney.

We've now got a midfield containing two of the best midfielders in the world, yet we struggle to even string a few passes together at times.
Yep, my favourite performances were City and Liverpool away. We completely played them off the park on both occasions.

One of our biggest problems under LVG was creativity, bruno and pogba would have solved that issue.
 

Jonno

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We've now got a midfield containing two of the best midfielders in the world, yet we struggle to even string a few passes together at times.
You say this, despite the fact Bruno's entire game is based on risky passes an as such results in a lower pass completion ratio.

We also have Fred in our DM position, a player who whilst very good at breaking up play and doing certain things, is atrocious at passing
 

Tallis

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What makes me laugh most is football fans with absolutely no experience of football at an elite level 'knowing' with absolute certainty that we're a 'poorly coached team'.

Let's just reflect on that comment and judgement for a second.

Manchester United, a giant club, former elite who's name still holds massive value, have staff at the club that cannot coach, despite having spent all their lives either playing football at an elite level or working as coaching staff at an elite level. So that's a serious dereliction of duty right
?

If the staff can't coach then surely the players would be regressing? Surely they should all collectively getting worse? I wonder why none have them have spoken out about their careers slowly going down the shitter due to not receiving coaching on par with what is expected at an elite club? What does it also say about the clubs board? I mean, if they're allowing this circus to happen right under their nose then they must all be the most incompetent bunch of clowns ever right?

Obviously if we just had a manager like Pep then we'd be absolutely fine, we'd win the treble most seasons because coaching is the only issue and it's acutely apparent that this group of players are better than anything we've ever had under Fergie.

This is why your post is bullshit. It's an ill thought out jibe at the club as a whole because you believe we're run shockingly.
Thank you for that bit in bold - pretty much my feelings.

I guess a lot of people didn’t think Ole would get this far and need reasons to justify their position:

- We can’t win against the big teams
- Ole is a coward
- We are poorly coached
- we are in 2nd because others messed up
 

RedIan

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God help us on the caf if we were not 2nd in the league to an outstanding city side.... 3rd last year so it can all be bad.

I do agree something isnt right and look to Lingard as an example, written of as hopeless by United fans , goes to west ham and starts banging goals in and their fans love him. DVB is clearly technically gifted cant get a game, I’m certain if he moves on to say arsenal level club he would shine again.
 

DomesticTadpole

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We lack basic coaching too, but nobody wants to talk about that.
We do, but to me you get technical ability, ball control with practice. Years ago players learnt to control the ball from being young through kicking a ball against a ball. How many kids can do that now in this country without having neighbours coming out yelling at them. I still remember that warm up against Barcelona and even our great side couldn't control a football. Some players don't want to put the extra effort in now to get better. You look at the likes of Beckham and Ronaldo who puts hours of work in to be the best they could.
 

MalcolmTucker

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We did the basics very well under LVG with worse players, make of that what you will.
We didn't, we played pretty much exactly like we did in the first half - slow and lots of sideways passing except at least now we're very good on the break.

The problem yesterday is we have too many players who don't have the confidence in their ability to make passes that break the lines - so many times Greenwood would be in a pocket of space and Fred would hesitate and end up playing it sideways. It's sad that our most progressive and technically solid player this season is our left back.

You could also argue that if we were better coached then players that aren't as technically good would know automatically where their colleagues are and would have the confidence to pick out better passes quicker. I think it's probably a little bit of both.
 

Odin

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We try to make use of tempo shifts with incisive, direct football carried out at high tempo ("counter attacking football, no coaching required, ...") intermixed with energy saving, high back-line possesion where only the ball runs at high tempo ("tiki-taka, Pep is God, ...).

Our squad is getting better but still doesn't gel as smoothly as City, perform as consistent as Bayern ver. 19/20, are as well connected in the VAR room as Liverpool ver. 19/20 or as cynical as Sevilla. But we have progressed. The team looks like they have raised the bar for themselves and try to play the football Ole wants. Whenever we fall behind (too often) the players believe/know they can turn it around.

2nd in the league isn't too bad for a young squad still learning on the job. I am sure the management can see the faults, inabilities and inconsistecies we see. Some will need ironing out, others will have to be masked and some may require a change in personnel at squad, coaching or managerial level. The team is still progressing.

Next year I believe we will gel better and play with more confidence and flair. I'll cheer our match day squad on, be frustrated when they can't pull it off, forgive them as long as they try and be heartbroken when they loose. Onwards and upwards!
 

Josep Dowling

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The major issue is passing accuracy, pass appreciation and speed of moving the ball forward. A lot of that comes down to drills on the training pitch and that’s why Pep’s teams are world class at passing the ball so fluidly.

There is footage of Pep telling Sterling how he should stand when receiving the ball, drilling it into him.

I don’t know how many times I see the likes of Fred pass the ball out wide, only for it to be underhit. The full back has to run back to receive the ball, that couple of seconds lost allows the opposition to get into shape. It’s tiny details like that we lack.

First time crosses by a full back? Whipped into the six yard box? 10 years of Valencia cutting the ball back, and we have managed to replace him with AWB who either can’t cross or does the same ball as Valencia did for years. Again coaches should identify this and drill into the players to stop cutting it back to no one.
 

cyberman

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How can we lack basic, techincal ability yet claim we only win by indivdual brilliance when that argument suits?
 

RashyForPM

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Disagree. Henderson’s distribution is good, and the last thing Lindelof, Maguire, Shaw, Pogba, Greenwood, Bruno and Rashford lack is technical ability. McT is getting much better on the ball too. AWB is just technically bad, no other way to put it, and Cavani’s touch is worse than I expected. However, most of our players, especially those in our best 11, are fine technically.

Our problem is, because our attacking tactics is essentially off the cuff, interpret and play as the attackers please, sometimes the players are sloppy because they are passing into decent areas where no one moves into. This tactic can result in scintillating stuff at times, but we also look clueless at times. A lot of our players are excellent passers, dribblers and finishers - movement is the problem.
 

r3idy

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Next season when we should be challenging for the title is when it will really show how basic our coaching is. 2nd will be a millstone around Oles neck as to improve he needs to win the league. This wont happen. I have noticed the decline in form of Bruno is a long term thing. Hes definitely not the player he was when he joined. Thats got to be the lack of quality training as well.
Or maybe just a completely ridiculous playing schedule ??

It's amazing that all the teams we are being compared to e.g. Liverpool, Chelsea etc it's OK, just passed as a drop in form and they will bounce back at our expense next year because we are an awfully coached team.
God help us on the caf if we were not 2nd in the league to an outstanding city side.... 3rd last year so it can all be bad.

I do agree something isnt right and look to Lingard as an example, written of as hopeless by United fans , goes to west ham and starts banging goals in and their fans love him. DVB is clearly technically gifted cant get a game, I’m certain if he moves on to say arsenal level club he would shine again.
Again Ole damned if he does, damned if he doesn't On the odd occasion he is vocal about his team or players publicly he made it clear at the back end of last season that if you don't perform, you are out. Lingard had more than enough chances to shine and show his worth. Maybe he did need a change of scenery to get his head and his sorted.

The the flip side is you look at Shaw who is in his richest vain of form with us. Not only at United but arguably the form Left Back of this season and deservedly recognised with an International Recall. That is not luck or down to bad management, if anything it's down to good management.

Up to his recent injury, Pogba showed a consistent run of form that Jose got nowhere near and he is one of our most technically gifted players, all down to luck or other teams being poor? Don't believe that.

My personal belief is that we won't win the league for at least another two to three years and that has nothing to do with Ole's management. City are just too strong. I don't believe it is any coincidence that they can field pretty much two international XI's and they are sitting pretty and winning the league at a canter. United will probably invest in one maybe two players over the coming few windows and it wont be enough to bridge the gap. City when backed with unlimited funds will not stand still.
 

Mart1974

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There were some awful touches last night. I recall shouting at the TV as Pogba miscontrolled a simple pass by about 10 yards.
 

crossy1686

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There were some awful touches last night. I recall shouting at the TV as Pogba miscontrolled a simple pass by about 10 yards.
Yep, there was some series ring rust last night. He also made some sloppy 10 yard passes that didn't find a man, but you know, probably the coaching right?
 

crossy1686

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Yep, my favourite performances were City and Liverpool away. We completely played them off the park on both occasions.

One of our biggest problems under LVG was creativity, bruno and pogba would have solved that issue.
First of all, he wouldn't have singed them. Secondly, we were absolutely abysmal under Van Gaal and we had Rooney, Di Maria, Schneiderlin, Depay, Shaw, Falcao, a good Lingard, Hererra, Blind, and Martial.

There's some serious romancing of a manager that possibly did the most damage to the club post Fergie.
 

Infra-red

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There were some awful touches last night. I recall shouting at the TV as Pogba miscontrolled a simple pass by about 10 yards.
Pogba is a sloppy player, but I don't think that can be blamed on his technical ability (of which he has plenty).
 

Cassidy

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The same was said last season. For any rise expected of them, you have to say Utd are just as likely to match or go one better. There’s a real obsession with Chelsea in particular despite having a worse team than us.
They actually dont
 

LoneStar

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How does ‘coaching’, whatever some of you actually mean by such a word, solve the fact that the likes of Fred aren’t remotely good enough at controlling and passing the football?

You don’t seriously think another bloke walks in and solves the fact that this halfwit keeps blasting the fecker out of play? Get real, lads.
We can obviously upgrade on some positions , where it's clearly the lack of the players ability. But we do have enough talent to string together more passes in the final third and try to create more chances.

Most of our chances seem to come from counters or individual brilliance, so coaching can definitely be improved upon.
 

wolvored

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Or maybe just a completely ridiculous playing schedule ??

It's amazing that all the teams we are being compared to e.g. Liverpool, Chelsea etc it's OK, just passed as a drop in form and they will bounce back at our expense next year because we are an awfully coached team.
I havent said any of that!
Im saying to improve again we need to be winning the title which I dont think we will regardless of whether any other club improves or not. This is on the coaching imo.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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They actually dont
I think they easily do.

They are the most overrated team I've ever seen in the Prem. I couldn't believe people thought they were a level above us after their transfer window.
 

crossy1686

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In a weekend where we won, Chelsea lost, Leicester lost, Spurs drew, Arsenal were abysmal, somehow we have a thread where a number of our fans are bashing the team and manager.
It's not the manager anymore.

There's a section of United supporters who believe the club is run by people less qualified than their local chippy staff. They believe Solskjaer is 'their man' and therefore a physical embodiment of everything wrong with the club behind Woodward, Judge, Glazers etc.

No matter how well Solskajer does he will always be lacking in some area because it fits their narrative of incompetent nepotism being rife at United.

It's pure and utter resentment at the club for 'letting itself go' like a spouse that's put on a tonne of weight after 20 years of marriage.

People need to step back and see the progress instead of scrutinising and looking for faults constantly.
 

Cassidy

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I think they easily do.

They are the most overrated team I've ever seen in the Prem. I couldn't believe people thought they were a level above us after their transfer window.
I guess we’ll agree to disagree
 

crossy1686

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We do, but to me you get technical ability, ball control with practice. Years ago players learnt to control the ball from being young through kicking a ball against a ball. How many kids can do that now in this country without having neighbours coming out yelling at them. I still remember that warm up against Barcelona and even our great side couldn't control a football. Some players don't want to put the extra effort in now to get better. You look at the likes of Beckham and Ronaldo who puts hours of work in to be the best they could.
Apart from Ronaldo being a freak, it's not that, there's intangibles that have a huge impact on performances. A CL final is a huge deal, the world is watching, of course you're going to be nervous and miss a couple of passes etc. The current crop of players struggle with the pressure of playing for United and the expectation, they're not used to it.

I've played against Ronnie Wallwork. He completely bossed the game for 90 minutes, I couldn't even get near him before he played a 60 yard, pin point, pass to a striker for a tap in. Why couldn't he do that for United in the PL? Reality is the pace and intensity of the game I played was no where near the same as PL level game so of course he could stroll around in second gear running the show because he already knew what he was going to do when he got the ball and how much time he would have.

Most of the players in the PL would absolutely run rings around anyone on this forum but the margins are so fine at an elite level.
 

Walrus

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I find it bizarre the OP @Walrus has been on the Caf posting in the general forum after the game but hasn't said anything at all positive about the second half display, or result itself, anywhere.
Contrary to what you may believe, I didnt create the thread purely as a reaction to the first half vs Brighton. The fact that we went on to get the three points is great, but doesnt change my thoughts on the matter.
 

crossy1686

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Contrary to what you may believe, I didnt create the thread purely as a reaction to the first half vs Brighton. The fact that we went on to get the three points is great, but doesnt change my thoughts on the matter.
Opinions should be challenged, reflected upon and revised whenever the variables that a belief is placed upon changes, otherwise it's just an emotional reaction to an event and therefore dismissible. So with United going on to win 2-1, a lot of your original half time points are null and void.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Most of our goals are either counterattacks, set pieces or individual brilliance. We struggle to maintain possession and to beat the press, because too many of our players simply arent comfortable on the ball.
Not trying to attack you, but you suggest most of our goals are from individual brilliance(that requires plenty of technical ability and then another 1/3 from counterattacks(that usually requires basic technical ability). Finally you mention set pieces(which again requires basic technical ability).

So how can you state we lack basic technical ability if you think most of our goals are essentially tied down to the players themselves showing technical ability on a basic level?

Don't think you're being contradicting with your statement?

As for the bold: Why is that entirely down to the players and not the structure implemented by the coaching staff and Ole?
 

Walrus

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Opinions should be challenged, reflected upon and revised whenever the variables that a belief is placed upon changes, otherwise it's just an emotional reaction to an event and therefore dismissible. So with United going on to win 2-1, a lot of your original half time points are null and void.
My mistake (one of many, I am sure) was indeed to make the thread at HT so that it became reactionary and viewed as an emotional response. The point I was trying to make however is from observations over the entire season, not just yesterday's game.

Not trying to attack you, but you suggest of our goals are from individual brilliance(that requires plenty of technical ability and then another 1/3 from counterattacks(that usually requires basic technical ability). Finally you mention set pieces(which again requires basic technical ability).

So how can you state we lack basic technical ability if you think most of our goals are essentially tied down to the players themselves showing technical ability on a basic level?

Don't think you're being contradicting with your statement?

As for the bold: Why is that entirely down to the players and not the structure implemented by the coaching staff and Ole?
There are a lot of different facets of "technical ability". We have players like Bruno and Pogba who are capable of hitting incredible 50-yard passes. We have players like Greenwood who is a fantastic finisher. This isnt what I was referring to, I was referring to the basics that you have to do for 80 minutes, not the clever creative stuff you get to do for the other 10.

The reason counterattacking works is because the opponents are typically out of position, that you can use physical attributes (mainly speed) to create a numerical advantage, and because usually there arent that many decisions that need to be made, or many passes etc that need to be executed.
Similarly, set pieces are a learned, practiced routine.

The area that I believe we struggle with is simply having standard possession. We struggle to play out from the back, we struggle to maintain possession against pressure, we struggle to break down organised defences in any systematic way. In my view, these areas can all be linked to our players not being comfortable enough on the ball, not being able to execute simple passes or control the ball reliably well. If I am playing a simple 10 yard pass to a teammate, it makes a huge difference if I put the pass a yard behind them vs a yard in front. The pace that I put on the pass also makes a massive difference. These are not technically complex passes, they are the bread and butter.

The pass Pogba played to Fred, leading to Brighton's goal yesterday is a convenient example - the ball was underhit and it allowed the opponent to nip in and challenge for it. That time we got punished for it, but this happens far too many times in any given game. We are our own worst enemies. We play better without the ball than with it.
 

Eriku

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All the more remarkable that we're currently higher in the league than every PL team bar City, despite being...... sh!te in defence, creating chances, scoring goals that aren't from counters, set pieces both defending and attacking, and of course, coaching.

Honestly, this place.
Don’t you know? Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, they’re all off the boil this season, whereas this season is so much easier for us for whatever reason :rolleyes:
 

Tallis

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It's not the manager anymore.

There's a section of United supporters who believe the club is run by people less qualified than their local chippy staff. They believe Solskjaer is 'their man' and therefore a physical embodiment of everything wrong with the club behind Woodward, Judge, Glazers etc.

No matter how well Solskajer does he will always be lacking in some area because it fits their narrative of incompetent nepotism being rife at United.

It's pure and utter resentment at the club for 'letting itself go' like a spouse that's put on a tonne of weight after 20 years of marriage.

People need to step back and see the progress instead of scrutinising and looking for faults constantly.
That makes sense. All of this has been very puzzling for me but this gives it some context.
 

r3idy

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It's not the manager anymore.

There's a section of United supporters who believe the club is run by people less qualified than their local chippy staff. They believe Solskjaer is 'their man' and therefore a physical embodiment of everything wrong with the club behind Woodward, Judge, Glazers etc.

No matter how well Solskajer does he will always be lacking in some area because it fits their narrative of incompetent nepotism being rife at United.

It's pure and utter resentment at the club for 'letting itself go' like a spouse that's put on a tonne of weight after 20 years of marriage.

People need to step back and see the progress instead of scrutinising and looking for faults constantly.
My sentiments exactly.
 

TrueRed1999

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Yes Redcafe, its another thread of complaints and negativity.

To make my own positions clear; I am Ole-in, Pogba-out, and think our #1 priority this summer should be to try to sign Haaland.

Now the actual point - I am watching the game against Brighton and the thing that stands out to me is that - compared with virtually every other team in the league - we seem to have a lot of players who simply lack basic technical competence.
I am defining technical ability as things like first touch, ball control and passing. Things that you should pretty much take for granted in any professional footballer. We have too many players who are deficient in these areas. This isnt a thread about naming names or trying to blame specific players because I believe it is a problem with the entire squad, but there are certainly some more culpable than others. Fred and AWB come to mind - but again, they arent the only ones.

The result of this is that we rarely seem to score goals from well worked pieces of play. Most of our goals are either counterattacks, set pieces or individual brilliance. We struggle to maintain possession and to beat the press, because too many of our players simply arent comfortable on the ball.

If you look at basically any other team in the league, especially the midfielders and forwards, they are technically sound players, comfortable on the ball and able to do the basics with a 90%+ success rate. It isnt about being able to play a killer pass or take on 5 players, its about the basics;

* Simple 10-yard passes are too often sloppy/imprecise. This invites pressure and often kills any momentum.
* First touches when recieving the ball. Again, these are often sloppy, leading to the classic "second touch is a tackle" syndrome.
* Holding the ball under pressure. This makes us too easy to play against and spoils a lot of opportunities to counterattack - you beat a press by either crisp short passing, or by beating a man - we dont reliably do either.

I think there are some significant holes in the squad that need addressing, but in order to strengthen as a team, we need our players to be comfortable on the ball. This doesnt mean a £60m playmaker, this simply means players who can do the basics (and then presumably have some key strengths on top of this - we dont want a squad of Tom Cleverleys). Dont look at the other team teams in the league, look at the mid table sides. Look at the ~6th place sides in La Liga. You will not see so many players who are so uncomfortable on the ball as ours.
Mainly because of our coaches are rubbish to be honest if I were Ole I would be asking Rene or Carlos to come back, we shouldn't be looking at the past to get us back however, Carrick, McKenna and Phelan aren't up to scratch. Nice people but we look like such an average team and frankly if those below us had performed this year we would be battling it out for 6th place.
 

crossy1686

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Mainly because of our coaches are rubbish to be honest if I were Ole I would be asking Rene or Carlos to come back, we shouldn't be looking at the past to get us back however, Carrick, McKenna and Phelan aren't up to scratch. Nice people but we look like such an average team and frankly if those below us had performed this year we would be battling it out for 6th place.
A coaching staff that have managed to improve almost every player in the team individually, and coach the team as a collective to 2nd place are rubbish? Okay then.