Declan Rice

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bsCallout

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Your location gives away your bias.

Go on then, is he any better than McTominay? Can he ping balls from deep like Carrick? Is he not as slow as Matic at half his age?

It's not lazy posting, it's an opinion of what I've seen time and time again from him. He tackles well and his distribution is ok-ish but nothing special and he's slow.

If you think that's worth 60-80 million then that's your opinion.
You're really talking tosh. He is better than McT, he's much faster than Matic and he plays the ball around very well. And he's only young.

I could understand if you didn't think he was the player we should be after but you definitely aren't acknowledging how good he actually is. To claim he's as slow as Matic and not better than McT is ridiculous.
 

bsCallout

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That's not how it works. It's not FIFA. Hes an experienced 22 year old. I'm sure you weren't refering to Rashford 'tender age' last season. He's young. He will of course improve, but he's no babe.
Bit of a bizarre thing to get hung up on. He's a top CM that's likely nowhere near his peak and is still very young with plenty of years ahead of him. He's likely not even a quarter way through his pro career.

Fred and Pogba are 6 years older.

De Bruyne is 7/8 years older(which shocked me).

Modric is still a baller and is 13 years older!

Rice is basically a novice at 22.
 

OrcaFat

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That's not how it works. It's not FIFA. Hes an experienced 22 year old. I'm sure you weren't refering to Rashford 'tender age' last season. He's young. He will of course improve, but he's no babe.
It is how it works. Roy Keane was the complete midfielder at 30 but far from that at 22. Not sure what FIFA has to do with it but if you’re talking about a video game, I have no idea how that works.

“Tender age” was not meant to say he’s a baby. I know how old he is. 22 is young for any player, especially a DM as good as Rice.
 

LuisNaniencia

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Not similar at all. Rice is much more positionally savvy, a much better tackler and just more organised in the way he plays football.

Scott is a box-to-box energy player, brings intensity. But his passing and positional play isn't particularly good. Not without quality, but I don't think he's first xi for a league winner.
Okay thanks, that's interesting. Although I'd have to disagree about Mctominay's passing, his long balls are like arrows. Maybe his choice of pass sometimes? I also think he could be league winning quality.
 

ivaldo

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Bit of a bizarre thing to get hung up on. He's a top CM that's likely nowhere near his peak and is still very young with plenty of years ahead of him. He's likely not even a quarter way through his pro career.

Fred and Pogba are 6 years older.

De Bruyne is 7/8 years older(which shocked me).

Modric is still a baller and is 13 years older!

Rice is basically a novice at 22.
I'm confused. Where have I said otherwise? Do you think I'm saying he hasn't got many years left or something? So having established himself as a England starter, having played over 100 games for a PL team, you still think he's 'tender' at 22? He's not a kid.
 

izak

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You're really talking tosh. He is better than McT, he's much faster than Matic and he plays the ball around very well. And he's only young.

I could understand if you didn't think he was the player we should be after but you definitely aren't acknowledging how good he actually is. To claim he's as slow as Matic and not better than McT is ridiculous.
Please put a stats up to show he's been better than McT for season past, in every aspect of their game because i don't agree with you! I've watched him and he's not any better.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I'm confused. Where have I said otherwise? Do you think I'm saying he hasn't got many years left or something? So having established himself as a England starter, having played over 100 games for a PL team, you still think he's 'tender' at 22? He's not a kid.
Semantics really. He's still 22, and a very young footballer with a lot of room for growth.
 

ivaldo

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It is how it works. Roy Keane was the complete midfielder at 30 but far from that at 22. Not sure what FIFA has to do with it but if you’re talking about a video game, I have no idea how that works.

“Tender age” was not meant to say he’s a baby. I know how old he is. 22 is young for any player, especially a DM as good as Rice.
Because there's not some hard and fast measurement for how much a player will improve based on his age. Experience is vastly more important to development than his age. I'm not sure if English is your first language, but you're not 'tender' at 22.
 

ivaldo

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Semantics really. He's still 22, and a very young footballer with a lot of room for growth.
Exaggeration more like, which seems to be a running theme when highlighting Rice's plus points.

The average age of our entire squad last year was only 2 years older and plenty here thought we should be in a position to start challenging.
 

Sultan

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Declan Rice is too defensive and static, and that's probably due to concerns at West Ham not needing or wanting to attack the opposition. Is he as good if he needs to venture forward and be creative which would be the case for most games playing for United?

I would then counter he is pretty similar to McTominay who is going to be in his peak over the next few seasons if the trajectory of his improvement carries on as it has been doing over the last few years. Scott is strong in the challenge and is getting consistently better and like Rice can play in defence. I am sure if required he can hold down a position just in front of the back four if the coaches requested similar to Rice's role at West Ham.

On the flip side, with Matic coming to the end of his best days, he could be his replacement. I can't personally see a transfer happening due to financial restraints this year and needing to fill other voids in the squad. However, there is one difficult avenue that can be explored that is finding a buyer for VDB and using Lingard's popularity to get a deal that then would pay for Declan Rice.
 

Lewnited

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He holds his position centrally very well, so I think the only way this makes sense is if we intend to play him as a sole #6 and let any two of Pogba/Bruno/VdB/McT push higher as #8s.

In a pivot, I think we'd end up with a lot of the same issues we've seen this season moving the ball through midfield as he's not an amazing passer, and of all our FBs only Shaw contributes significantly in progressing the ball.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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What makes people think that signing Rice or DM means they will play next to Pogba? Pogba is playing wide against the top sides because he will get more freedom and more space to do his things meaning he won’t lose the ball in dangerous area. Signing DM and playing Pogba next to DM doesn’t neglect the fact he could still lose the ball in dangerous area which could cost us conceded a goal.

I like Rice or the idea of signing midfielder because I think Matic is done for and relying on Fred and McT alone is not enough as we need option to rotate but not for the price that west ham is asking for. We need to find 30m-35m at max this summer.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Declan Rice is too defensive and static, and that's probably due to concerns at West Ham not needing or wanting to attack the opposition. Is he as good if he needs to venture forward and be creative which would be the case for most games playing for United?

I would then counter he is pretty similar to McTominay who is going to be in his peak over the next few seasons if the trajectory of his improvement carries on as it has been doing over the last few years. Scott is strong in the challenge and is getting consistently better and like Rice can play in defence. I am sure if required he can hold down a position just in front of the back four if the coaches requested similar to Rice's role at West Ham.

On the flip side, with Matic coming to the end of his best days, he could be his replacement. I can't personally see a transfer happening due to financial restraints this year and needing to fill other voids in the squad. However, there is one difficult avenue that can be explored that is finding a buyer for VDB and using Lingard's popularity to get a deal that then would pay for Declan Rice.
I don't think he needs to be able to bomb forward. But he needs to be technically strong and be able to dictate the game from deep - like Fabinho does - and I have major doubt about that. Personally, I don't think Mctominay or Fred are really genuinely at the level we need so clogging the midfield up with another defense minded midfielder only makes sense if they're good on the ball.
 

Sultan

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I don't think he needs to be able to bomb forward. But he needs to be technically strong and be able to dictate the game from deep - like Fabinho does - and I have major doubt about that. Personally, I don't think Mctominay or Fred are really genuinely at the level we need so clogging the midfield up with another defense minded midfielder only makes sense if they're good on the ball.
He's definitely not Carrick standard in his distribution as some would claim.

United's hiring policy has been a shambles over the last decade with very few exceptions. Fabinho was actually courting United to sign him up whilst at Monaco. Our French posters were so positive about his ability. Unfortunately, he's turned out to be the best in class.
 

romufc

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We really need to see if this is a deal worth doing. His total cost would easily be £60-80m, either with Lingard included or cash only.

When you can get Cammavinga or someone from Europe for £30m. Surely, we need to be looking at the most cost effective way of improving the team.

I would understand going for Rice if he was the perfect choice and he was the missing piece but we need 3 signings to compete. ST, CDM, CB so we need to find deals around that can help us.
 

bsCallout

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Please put a stats up to show he's been better than McT for season past, in every aspect of their game because i don't agree with you! I've watched him and he's not any better.
You're way too reliant on stats. McT doesn't even start at CM for Scotland, that is telling.
 

bsCallout

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I'm confused. Where have I said otherwise? Do you think I'm saying he hasn't got many years left or something? So having established himself as a England starter, having played over 100 games for a PL team, you still think he's 'tender' at 22? He's not a kid.
Weird hang up again. Tender age = Young and lacks experience.

In the world of football he is very young and lacks experience.
 

Hammondo

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You're really talking tosh. He is better than McT, he's much faster than Matic and he plays the ball around very well. And he's only young.

I could understand if you didn't think he was the player we should be after but you definitely aren't acknowledging how good he actually is. To claim he's as slow as Matic and not better than McT is ridiculous.
His passing is really average. He is hard work over talent.
 

RUCK4444

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Rice is 22, same age as Roy when we bought him in 1993. Roy was a big talent and a good player already then, like Rice. And his first two seasons at United, 93/94 and 94/95, he played well but was overshadowed by the utterly magnificent Paul Ince. Roy even played some games at right back. When Ince was sold in the summer of '95, up steps Roy Keane. World class bonanza for ten years.

If anything Rice is ahead of the curve, being captain/vice-captain of a good Premier League team. Roy's Forest was relegated in his last season there.

Who knows how good he'll end up being, but the signs so far are encouraging to say the least.

And I must admit I think it's funny that my favourite player ever Roy Keane thinks the same thing about Rice as I have done for some time. I'm sure it means a lot to Roy as well. :wenger:
In fairness he’s young and like I say I don’t think he’s a bad player at all, I just don’t think he’s worth the mental money West Ham think he is.

Time will tell. I’m super critical about the DM whole in our squad though, I’ve been desperate for us to sign a top level DM for ages.
 

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Weird hang up again. Tender age = Young and lacks experience.

In the world of football he is very young and lacks experience.
He's played 4 seasons in the premier league and 15 caps for England. He's far more experienced than most in world football. You're just assuming because he's 22 his progress will be linear.
 

bsCallout

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He's played 4 seasons in the premier league and 15 caps for England. He's far more experienced than most in world football. You're just assuming because he's 22 his progress will be linear.
He's played 4 season at West Ham and only has 15 caps in basic games for England. He is very inexperienced.

He's never gotten to latter stages of a cup comp.

He's never had the pressure of playing for a big club.

He's never played in a club team that is expected to win and dominate games.

He's never played in big European games.

He's a novice.
 

Poborsky's hair

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He´s another Eric Dier but obviously posters here get easily desperate over any kind of signing. I say we rather wait and buy top quality rather than another Daniel James/ Wan Bissaka. Could also do with a loan next season, maybe someone like Vidal, even though he´s old now. And then give it to Garner who will do better going out on loan again getting valuable experience and game time.
 

Lash

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He's played 4 season at West Ham and only has 15 caps in basic games for England. He is very inexperienced.

He's never gotten to latter stages of a cup comp.

He's never had the pressure of playing for a big club.

He's never played in a club team that is expected to win and dominate games.

He's never played in big European games.

He's a novice.
It's semantics at this point. What your describing there is someone who's played at the elite level of football. Having 128 appearances for your club in the premier league is very experienced - no way would I describe Rice as a novice and I'm sure if you called him that, he'd tell you to feck off.
 

ivaldo

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Weird hang up again. Tender age = Young and lacks experience.

In the world of football he is very young and lacks experience.
He's played over 100 games for a PL team and is a regular in the England national team. To put it into context that's about the same amount of club games as Bailly, and considerably more than AWB who is roughly the same age. We expect them to be able to perform now. It would be ridiculous to say Bailly and AWB lacked experience.
 
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ivaldo

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He's played 4 season at West Ham and only has 15 caps in basic games for England. He is very inexperienced.

He's never gotten to latter stages of a cup comp.

He's never had the pressure of playing for a big club.

He's never played in a club team that is expected to win and dominate games.

He's never played in big European games.

He's a novice.
A novice. feck sake.
 

bsCallout

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He´s another Eric Dier but obviously posters here get easily desperate over any kind of signing. I say we rather wait and buy top quality rather than another Daniel James/ Wan Bissaka. Could also do with a loan next season, maybe someone like Vidal, even though he´s old now. And then give it to Garner who will do better going out on loan again getting valuable experience and game time.
Ok now you're being ridiculous. He's levels above Dier.

Funnily enough Garner would probably be perfect next to Rice.
 

ivaldo

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Really good point, I'll mull it over.
There's a lot more than that you need to mull over. You're either taking the piss or you really don't understand what a novice is.
 
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bsCallout

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Rather take a punt on Sander Berge. Rice would take a huge chunk out of our transfer budget.
He's only played 13 games this season, just had surgery for a bizarre injury and is older than Rice. Surely we want players we know can step right in?
 

Sir Marcus

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He's played 4 season at West Ham and only has 15 caps in basic games for England. He is very inexperienced.

He's never gotten to latter stages of a cup comp.

He's never had the pressure of playing for a big club.

He's never played in a club team that is expected to win and dominate games.

He's never played in big European games.

He's a novice.

He really isn't.


Still not 100% convinced by Rice but I wouldn't be that surprised if he did prove to be capable of being a regular at a big club.
 

Floyd

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In fairness he’s young and like I say I don’t think he’s a bad player at all, I just don’t think he’s worth the mental money West Ham think he is.

Time will tell. I’m super critical about the DM whole in our squad though, I’ve been desperate for us to sign a top level DM for ages.
Of course, if West Ham are serious about their £100m valuation this is not going to happen and rightly so.

But if the price is £40m + Jesse I think a deal could be done. And it would be a good deal in the long run, he could play for us for 10-12 years, no problem.
 

Floyd

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He´s another Eric Dier but obviously posters here get easily desperate over any kind of signing. I say we rather wait and buy top quality rather than another Daniel James/ Wan Bissaka. Could also do with a loan next season, maybe someone like Vidal, even though he´s old now. And then give it to Garner who will do better going out on loan again getting valuable experience and game time.
Vidal? He's done for and he's not even a DM.
 

OrcaFat

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Because there's not some hard and fast measurement for how much a player will improve based on his age. Experience is vastly more important to development than his age. I'm not sure if English is your first language, but you're not 'tender' at 22.
I’m not sure if English is your first language but all terms are relative and, if I say he’s tender-aged, it ought to be obvious to you that I’m making the point that, at 22, he is younger than most guys playing at elite level in his position.

You’re absolutely right that experience is more important than age and, guess what, he’ll have a lot more experience when he’s 30 than he has now.

I wasn’t expecting to be in a debate about the definition of the word “tender” but if you prefer I can just say “young”. Please let’s not get in a debate about what “young” means.
 

Lash

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Comparing Dier to Rice purely because they're both English, then saying we should sign Vidal in 2021. God bless the Caf.
It is a actually fair comparison. Dier was actually challenging for the league at the same age with Tottenham, he just fell off a cliff with injuries and form.
 
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