Sensible, non-hysterical ESL and CL discussion only

[rcoobc]

I'd like to know what it is. People seem to be taking the view that they don't know what it is but know they don't like it. I've never actually seen any concrete proposals to decide if I like it or not. People are reacting to what they think it is and reacting to other people reacting to what they themselves think it is. It's all very odd.

As I said in the other thread, UEFA planned to make the CL into a league format anyway. If this is simply a break-away replacement but with clubs negotiating their own rights deal, similar to the foundation of the PL and there's opportunity for other clubs to qualify each year just like the proposed CL revamp, then I struggle to see that the hysteria has been fully justified.

This is very true.

In fact the ESL as it's currently planned reminds me greatly of the CL Revamp that was being pushed for a few seasons ago: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/23/uefa-champions-league-revamp

Uefa is considering a major revamp of the Champions League, which could involve cutting the group stage to 16 teams. The move is being driven by continental clubs’ concern that they are being left behind by huge revenues generated by the Premier League and the revised format could mean smaller teams having a reduced presence in the group phase.

Sources at a major Premier League club say the group stage could be split into what would effectively be two mini super-leagues. Uefa is expected to announce any changes next season, before the sale of the next cycle of commercial deals. As the Champions League is in the first term of a three-year rights contract it would be difficult for any changes to be implemented until after the 2017-18 edition.

I mean it's essentially identical, apart deciding how the teams enter the competition

 

[rcoobc]

No club will be banned from the prem, or CL, or Europa etc. All hogwash. No player will be banned from world cup or euros either.

I mean, if you banned all those clubs players' from the world cup or euros, most squads would be so much weaker, and the tournament would be shite i suspect.

The domestic leagues and european ones need the fans and the big clubs, more than we need them. The ESL will likely happen. But the prem will suffer in so much that top 4 isnt that big of a deal for the big clubs now... can finish 17th and still be in the Super League and make about 300m

Indeed. What some are suggesting isn't splitting a league, or a competition, it's splitting the entire sport.

And yeah, the fight for European places has been a big selling point for decades.

 

[HackeyC]

Whilst I don't agree with how they are going about this, from some perspectives I can understand why.

1. Corruption at the core of FIFA and UEFA raises doubts as to how licencing income is being used. Teams possibly believe they deserve more control when they "earn" the bulk of this.

2. Continuously fighting for a CL spot is proving troublesome for English teams who it would seem prefer more predictable cash flows.

3. Real and Barca may actually be in real trouble without this which could ultimately damage the CL.

4. A complete abandonment of financial fair play rules has proven an advantage to state owned teams, which needs to be managed.


Personally I hate the whole idea but the fact that UEFA and FIFA are claiming a moral high ground is laughable given their corruption issues. Additionally, any government involvement in this is a gross over reach of powers imo, these are private businesses despite the nostalgia amongst fans.

 

[ZolaWasMagic]

Indeed. What some are suggesting isn't splitting a league, or a competition, it's splitting the entire sport.

And yeah, the fight for European places has been a big selling point for decades.

Exactly. The 12 founding members of ESL will qualify every single year regardless, make a tonne of cash, and not have to worry about top 4 for years and years. Its why theyve all signed up. Finish 17th and still make hundreds of millions just from ESL. And i tell you another thing, i dont believe one single supporter who has said theyll never go watch them again if they sign up. Not a chance. Theyll even attend the ESL matches IMO

 

[Chief123]

This is very true.

In fact the ESL as it's currently planned reminds me greatly of the CL Revamp that was being pushed for a few seasons ago: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/mar/23/uefa-champions-league-revamp



I mean it's essentially identical, apart deciding how the teams enter the competition

The problem isn’t the formation of the competition. The biggest glaring problem is the fact it’s a ring fenced competition for only the “elite”. It will basically lead to these 15 founder clubs being uncatchable in terms of wealth and quality of players. They will literally blow every other team in Europe out of the water to a point where they can’t even get close to them. Even if the competition allows 5 other teams in the competition based on domestic success, those 5 teams will never be able to get close to the established 15 because those founder clubs get a payment every year which those 5 clubs aren’t entitled to. It’s basically keeping the elite clubs rich without any question or conditions.

The other glaring problem for me is going to be the fact that these clubs have absolutely no financial incentive to try and sign the best players in the world. Why would the Glazers even consider buying the likes of Mbappe or Haaland when ultimately they are going to get the guaranteed income regardless of footballing success anyway. It’s basically going to end up in a situation whereby the most successful club in the Super League is going to be the one who has an owner actually wanting footballing success and not as concerned about financial gains as the other 14 teams. Such a poor model to eliminate any form of promotion or relegation. It literally takes everything competitive out of the game.

 

[SwedishFish]

I'd like to know what it is. People seem to be taking the view that they don't know what it is but know they don't like it. I've never actually seen any concrete proposals to decide if I like it or not. People are reacting to what they think it is and reacting to other people reacting to what they themselves think it is. It's all very odd.

As I said in the other thread, UEFA planned to make the CL into a league format anyway. If this is simply a break-away replacement but with clubs negotiating their own rights deal, similar to the foundation of the PL and there's opportunity for other clubs to qualify each year just like the proposed CL revamp, then I struggle to see that the hysteria has been fully justified.

Very much agree with this. It's a sign of the times. The outrage begins instantly and gets fed through media and social media without anyone having a clue what's actually going on except for a few punchlines.

 

[Teja]

Whilst I don't agree with how they are going about this, from some perspectives I can understand why.

1. Corruption at the core of FIFA and UEFA raises doubts as to how licencing income is being used. Teams possibly believe they deserve more control when they "earn" the bulk of this.

2. Continuously fighting for a CL spot is proving troublesome for English teams who it would seem prefer more predictable cash flows.

3. Real and Barca may actually be in real trouble without this which could ultimately damage the CL.

4. A complete abandonment of financial fair play rules has proven an advantage to state owned teams, which needs to be managed.


Personally I hate the whole idea but the fact that UEFA and FIFA are claiming a moral high ground is laughable given their corruption issues. Additionally, any government involvement in this is a gross over reach of powers imo, these are private businesses despite the nostalgia amongst fans.

100x this.

The primary thing is that this is a cup competition and not one where top teams play each other home and away for 38 games a season.

The CL has 8 games before QFs. The ESL has 10 games before QFs. The meaningless group stage games in the CL will give way to actual good football.

The biggest thing for the Spanish / Italian teams I'm guessing is actual enforcement of FFP. Given UEFA's toothlessness in this regard, the clubs have just taken matters into their own hands. Yes it's a bit heavy handed ("We as clubs will decide if you're spending too much money"), but what else can you do? There's no way you can actually enforce fair competition - for every regulation UEFA comes up with, there will exist a thousand loop holes / tricks sugardaddy owners can use to get around them.

 

[SwedishFish]

The problem isn’t the formation of the competition. The biggest glaring problem is the fact it’s a ring fenced competition for only the “elite”. It will basically lead to these 15 founder clubs being uncatchable in terms of wealth and quality of players. They will literally blow every other team in Europe out of the water to a point where they can’t even get close to them. Even if the competition allows 5 other teams in the competition based on domestic success, those 5 teams will never be able to get close to the established 15 because those founder clubs get a payment every year which those 5 clubs aren’t entitled to. It’s basically keeping the elite clubs rich without any question or conditions.

The other glaring problem for me is going to be the fact that these clubs have absolutely no financial incentive to try and sign the best players in the world. Why would the Glazers even consider buying the likes of Mbappe or Haaland when ultimately they are going to get the guaranteed income regardless of footballing success anyway. It’s basically going to end up in a situation whereby the most successful club in the Super League is going to be the one who has an owner actually wanting footballing success and not as concerned about financial gains as the other 14 teams. Such a poor model to eliminate any form of promotion or relegation. It literally takes everything competitive out of the game.

This point I don't agree with because essentially it would mean that American sports would be completely non-competitive. There is an incentive in winning still and commercial aspects of having superstars that can't be disregarded.

Our owners as much as I dislike them brought in Tom Brady and his co-stars and won a Super Bowl this year.

The only thing that I could see is it becoming stagnant and uninteresting due to the last thing you mentioned along with a lot of matches against the same teams.

 

[1950]

This point I don't agree with because essentially it would mean that American sports would be completely non-competitive. There is an incentive in winning still and commercial aspects of having superstars that can't be disregarded.

Our owners as much as I dislike them brought in Tom Brady and his co-stars and won a Super Bowl this year.

The only thing that I could see is it becoming stagnant and uninteresting due to the last thing you mentioned along with a lot of matches against the same teams.

Agreed and the reason for this is the cap on spending. The owners don't even have to be cheap bastards since the rules of the competition already guarantee they'll make a killing even if they max their cap.

Additionally to the brand value attached to success and the superstar factor, there will surely be financial incentives for better placement in the Super League and the domestic league.

 

[RUCK4444]

I’d be all for this if it was geared towards ridding the game of plastic clubs like City, PSG and Chelsea.

The fact we would have to play them more than we already do makes this even less appealing than it already is.

 

[SwedishFish]

I’d be all for this if it was geared towards ridding the game of plastic clubs like City, PSG and Chelsea.

The fact we would have to play them more than we already do makes this even less appealing than it already is.

Well look I've in no way made my mind up about this and what I think or don't think about the Super League.

But at least the Super League would have a cap on the clubs involved which is a whole of a lot better than UEFAs FFP rules and would create a more level playing field amongst the top teams.

 

[ShoePolish]

All the possible punishments, to me, seem to push these clubs more towards the ESL rather than convince them not to do it. Just try to convince them to go back to normal, let the fan fury take out the greedy bastards within.

 

[Trophy Room]

It’s laughable that FIFA and UEFA have taken the moral high ground here - they are as corrupt as it comes. However, I feel this would be the end of European and English football as we know it - the death of the premier league. If it happens, from a personal perspective - my emotional connection to Manchester United will be over.

 

[Fox outside the box]

It's the Champions League and Europa that I want to know more about.

With what I've seen, this appears to take the format from a domestic league and 2 European competitions, with 7 qualifying for them to a domestic league and 3 European competitions, with 13 overall being involved.

Is this not a good opportunity for the clubs who will now qualify for the original 2? It seems it to me.

 

[RUCK4444]

Well look I've in no way made my mind up about this and what I think or don't think about the Super League.

But at least the Super League would have a cap on the clubs involved which is a whole of a lot better than UEFAs FFP rules and would create a more level playing field amongst the top teams.

So eventually Leicester in the PL, by ignoring FFP, would end up with a better team than any in the super league?

 

[rcoobc]

The problem isn’t the formation of the competition. The biggest glaring problem is the fact it’s a ring fenced competition for only the “elite”. It will basically lead to these 15 founder clubs being uncatchable in terms of wealth and quality of players. They will literally blow every other team in Europe out of the water to a point where they can’t even get close to them. Even if the competition allows 5 other teams in the competition based on domestic success, those 5 teams will never be able to get close to the established 15 because those founder clubs get a payment every year which those 5 clubs aren’t entitled to. It’s basically keeping the elite clubs rich without any question or conditions.

The other glaring problem for me is going to be the fact that these clubs have absolutely no financial incentive to try and sign the best players in the world. Why would the Glazers even consider buying the likes of Mbappe or Haaland when ultimately they are going to get the guaranteed income regardless of footballing success anyway. It’s basically going to end up in a situation whereby the most successful club in the Super League is going to be the one who has an owner actually wanting footballing success and not as concerned about financial gains as the other 14 teams. Such a poor model to eliminate any form of promotion or relegation. It literally takes everything competitive out of the game.

Indeed. Both points are completely valid.

I suspect that the "closed league" will be the first thing negotiated away. Those with long memories will recall that the creation of the Premier League was meant to be a closed loop. That's didn't happen either.

"

All the possible punishments, to me, seem to push these clubs more towards the ESL rather than convince them not to do it. Just try to convince them to go back to normal, let the fan fury take out the greedy bastards within.

Very true

 

[Random Task]

The essence of football lies in those once in a lifetime moments, such as Leicester winning the league or Greece winning the Euros. Just a couple of minor examples of what we'll lose should this super league go ahead as planned, but there are thousands to choose from. The romance of the game dies with the introduction of the ESL. No more upsets, no more surprises. No more David vs Goliath. Just the so-called big clubs battling it out in a predictably dull affair.

Gone is the working man's game, replaced by a competition available only to the richest and most powerful clubs in Europe. A competition for the supposed shameless elite of football. And United are one of those clubs.

Sigh.

 

[KGBhoy]

The fact that the 15 clubs are permanent is the biggest issue here for me - it's a very US like model where you qualify just based on the fact that you exist. Otherwise you could make an argument that it's similar to the existing CL.

 

[littlepeasoup]

The Super League have said they will have a cap on 'transfer spending' using the extra revenue generated from the competition, correct? (Or at the very least it's been mentioned as an idea) Doesn't this seem to fly in the face of the argument of those funds then trickling down to rest of the football pyramid?

Also, has there been any talk about limiting those extra funds on player wages?

 

[SwedishFish]

So eventually Leicester in the PL, by ignoring FFP, would end up with a better team than any in the super league?

Think the massive income from the ESL would put that out sadly but my point is that regardless of what happens I'd like to have it in our European competitions.

 

[SwedishFish]

The Super League have said they will have a cap on 'transfer spending' using the extra revenue generated from the competition, correct? (Or at the very least it's been mentioned as an idea) Doesn't this seem to fly in the face of the argument of those funds then trickling down to rest of the football pyramid?

Also, has there been any talk about limiting those extra funds on player wages?

As I understand it's a 50 percent cap of revenue going to wages.

I don't think there are any other caps in place, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[1950]

It was 55% of revenue on transfers and wages.

 

[Fox outside the box]

100x this.

The primary thing is that this is a cup competition and not one where top teams play each other home and away for 38 games a season.

The CL has 8 games before QFs. The ESL has 10 games before QFs. The meaningless group stage games in the CL will give way to actual good football.

The biggest thing for the Spanish / Italian teams I'm guessing is actual enforcement of FFP. Given UEFA's toothlessness in this regard, the clubs have just taken matters into their own hands. Yes it's a bit heavy handed ("We as clubs will decide if you're spending too much money"), but what else can you do? There's no way you can actually enforce fair competition - for every regulation UEFA comes up with, there will exist a thousand loop holes / tricks sugardaddy owners can use to get around them.

Yeah I've watched so many blurgh games and seen plenty of people openly say they aren't excited for them.

I will never get more excited to play Granada than Juve. When we've played Arsenal or Liverpool 3/4+ times in one season, I didn't get bored of those games.

I can totally see why clubs would prefer this over travelling to Kazakhstan in mid week. Even if their intentions are purely selfish, they still need a good product. I'm under no illusion that Amazon care about me, the goal is make money and more money. I just happen to love their product. Its a win win in that sense.

 

[rcoobc]

Is there a parallel to this anywhere else?

Maybe the split between Rugby League and Union or the two halves of the NFL?

 

[KekiZeki]

Did football really ended?

 

[RUCK4444]

Think the massive income from the ESL would put that out sadly but my point is that regardless of what happens I'd like to have it in our European competitions.

Yeah I agree, any changes or newly created competitions need to be stand alone and separate from domestic leagues.

 

[littlepeasoup]

It was 55% of revenue on transfers and wages.

Still a staggering amount, no?

 

[horsechoker]

This is war!

Boris Johnson needs to mobilise the troops because as far as I'm concerned Prince Philip's death was caused by this as was DMX's

Every man woman and child has been personally stabbed in the chest by the blade of the venomous snakes that be the Glazer's

Further, I propose we go on a national strike until football is given back to the people!

Oh sorry, misread the title, I thought this was the hysterical thread.

 

[Fox outside the box]

It’s laughable that FIFA and UEFA have taken the moral high ground here - they are as corrupt as it comes. However, I feel this would be the end of European and English football as we know it - the death of the premier league. If it happens, from a personal perspective - my emotional connection to Manchester United will be over.

Football has changed a lot anyway though. Football in 2020 is not the same as it was in 2000 and that wasn't the same as 1980.

The game has changed significantly over time. The old European Cup being changed, the Champions League format changing, introduction of the Premier League, offside rule, no back pass, FFP, VAR, short sponsors being introduced, sleeve sponsors, stadium naming. I'll be missing loads of other stuff that people have gotten upset about at the time.

It feels a little bit who cried wolf, I've seen fans claim that X is going to destroy the soul and integrity of the game they love so, so many times. All of the threats to boycott etc have been rubbish, for the most part.

We may lose some fans but I suspect that in general, a large amount will tune in or turn up to the ground. They will grumble but then continue to enjoy the sport. And that one in ten or h whatever who does turn their back on it will probably slowly creep back in as clips and comments fill their social media time lines and they end up getting sucked back in anyway.

 

[rcoobc]

This is war!

Boris Johnson needs to mobilise the troops because as far as I'm concerned Prince Philip's death was caused by this as was DMX's

Every man woman and child has been personally stabbed in the chest by the blade of the venomous snakes that be the Glazer's

Further, I propose we go on a national strike until football is given back to the people!

Oh sorry, misread the title, I thought this was the hysterical thread.

Easily done choker, easily done.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Whilst I don't agree with how they are going about this, from some perspectives I can understand why.

1. Corruption at the core of FIFA and UEFA raises doubts as to how licencing income is being used. Teams possibly believe they deserve more control when they "earn" the bulk of this.

2. Continuously fighting for a CL spot is proving troublesome for English teams who it would seem prefer more predictable cash flows.

3. Real and Barca may actually be in real trouble without this which could ultimately damage the CL.

4. A complete abandonment of financial fair play rules has proven an advantage to state owned teams, which needs to be managed.


Personally I hate the whole idea but the fact that UEFA and FIFA are claiming a moral high ground is laughable given their corruption issues. Additionally, any government involvement in this is a gross over reach of powers imo, these are private businesses despite the nostalgia amongst fans.

Great post. Hopefully the outcry about the ESL can help 'fix' the above issues. I know I am probably expecting too much. I'd for sure stick with the 'devil I know' between CL and ESL.

 

[rcoobc]

What I would like to point out is that, whatever happens to the Champions League and/or the ESL, they are fundamentally limited in viewing figures because of the mid-week matches.

How do our American and Asian Caf-members view these games? 8pm UK time is 3pm in New York.

There is a fundamental limit to what any new "Super League" can achieve when it occupies mid-week slots.

 

[horsechoker]

What I would like to point out is that, whatever happens to the Champions League and/or the ESL, they are fundamentally limited in viewing figures because of the mid-week matches.

How do our American and Asian Caf-members view these games? 8pm UK time is 3pm in New York.

There is a fundamental limit to what any new "Super League" can achieve when it occupies mid-week slots.

I would fully expect them to take the games to other countries. I think the Middle-East will be the prime candidate as it sits half-way between Europe and The Far East. However, they'll also look at ways of scheduling matches in America and the Far East.

 

[bsCallout]

I'll be one that won't continue watching football. Maybe its just an excuse not too.

I for one love that small clubs play in the UCL. I have zero interest in having guaranteed games against the biggest teams in Europe every year. Part of the romance of the UCL is firstly, are you even going to make it, and secondly, have the draw and possibly getting a tie you've not had for 10 years. One thing about being an away fan is being able to go all over Europe too.

I loved that Ajax made it to the Semis. I loved that a team like Instanbul got a result against the mighty United, or that Leipzig got game against both United & Liverpool this season, including a win.

I think the flow of money will make the premiership dramatically less competitive.

I hate also that clubs like Leicester, West Ham etc won't be giving everything to achieve UCL, or even Europa League.

 

[rcoobc]

I would fully expect them to take the games to other countries. I think the Middle-East will be the prime candidate as it sits half-way between Europe and The Far East. However, they'll also look at ways of scheduling matches in America and the Far East.

Jeesus.. probably.

 

[vulmik]

Is there a parallel to this anywhere else?

Maybe the split between Rugby League and Union or the two halves of the NFL?

Rugby League in Australia had their own Super League war in the 90s.
Still the biggest story and threat to the games existence ever.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

The Ornstein and Chapman podcast once again had the best non-hysterical discussion on this. They say the remaining three spots are kind of an open invite to Munich, PSG and Dortmund. Bayern and Dortmund cannot join right now because they need fan permission on such an issue owing to the ownership model, PSG did not join yet because Qatar owns Bein sports, which has exclusive rights to champions league right now and the competition would be utterly worthless with the super league.

Apparently the discussions on the CL format change were a lot more fractious than UEFA led us to imagine and Bayern were one of the vocal proponents of wanting the clubs that draw most TV revenue to play more often as it seems idiotic not maximizing that. Also the champions league TV revenue fell 35% over the past season, the Spanish, German, Italian and French clubs all are having to negotiate TV deals for less. The premier league clubs have in the past been lukewarm to the idea of the super league because they have very good TV deals and would stand to benefit less as compared to the Spanish, German or Italian clubs but now they see the writing on the wall that the next premier league TV deal will be much poorer than the current one. All that has led to this being sprung so suddenly.

There's still no official broadcast partner and that is still something that will be open for bidding in the near future.

 

[sullydnl]

What I would like to point out is that, whatever happens to the Champions League and/or the ESL, they are fundamentally limited in viewing figures because of the mid-week matches.

How do our American and Asian Caf-members view these games? 8pm UK time is 3pm in New York.

There is a fundamental limit to what any new "Super League" can achieve when it occupies mid-week slots.

In the immediate to mid term this is true.

I think it would be a mistake to assume this is the ultimate end-point for the competition though. I believe they've committed themselves to domestic competitions for a period of time but once that period ends and the ESL is well established then they may take a different approach.

 

[littleman]

I'll be one that won't continue watching football. Maybe its just an excuse not too.

I for one love that small clubs play in the UCL. I have zero interest in having guaranteed games against the biggest teams in Europe every year. Part of the romance of the UCL is firstly, are you even going to make it, and secondly, have the draw and possibly getting a tie you've not had for 10 years. One thing about being an away fan is being able to go all over Europe too.

I loved that Ajax made it to the Semis. I loved that a team like Instanbul got a result against the mighty United, or that Leipzig got game against both United & Liverpool this season, including a win.

I think the flow of money will make the premiership dramatically less competitive.

I hate also that clubs like Leicester, West Ham etc won't be giving everything to achieve UCL, or even Europa League.

I think there’s some discomfort with change. Having watched the EPL for 20 years I too feel like a lot of exciting dynamics will be lost.

However, I’ve lived in the USA for the past decade and sports here is really organized differently, more like the ESL. And it’s still competitive, people still enjoy it and there are just as many sporting stories here as there are in the EPL.

I think this really shows how much these leagues and tournament formats are reliant on these giant clubs. Any entity with leverage should exercise it fully. Just like a top player has choice, and a top league has choice.. this is just a natural evolution of top clubs exercising willpower and choice. The Leicesters and West Hams are all ultimately beneficiaries of Man United. And MUFC has come to collect.

 

[Ali Dia]

The set teams and no relegation is an absolute dealbreaker