Julian Nagelsmann | Sacked and replaced by Tuchel

Ish

Lights on for Luke
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
32,171
Location
Voted the best city in the world
If Bayern don't sign them, do you think they will stay at Leipzig as Werner and Naby Keita did?
When Bayern didnt sign from Dortmund for the past 5 seasons did Auba Miki, Dembele Pulisic Sancho? stay?
Are you saying Bayern should not be allowed to sign from Bundesliga and every club domestic and foreign should be able to
Where did I say Bayern shouldn’t sign them? I was engaging JP on what he posted to understand another POV from the usual “Bayern bad” posts on here. Whether they stay in the BL or leave for another team doesn’t really make what I posted any less true anyway - unless you’re going to argue Bayern signing players/managers from BL teams doesn’t weaken those teams? Which would be an odd thing to argue.
Nah, we were certainly interested in Reus and we were 100% after him when he was still with Gladbach. He decided to go to Dortmund because he didn't want to compete with Ribery and Robben for a spot which was reasonable at the time.

Also people might think players always chose us over every other german club but Reus isn't the only example where Dortmund competes for a player with us and wins out, especially when it comes to younger players. We were also interested in Dembele, Sancho and Bellingham before they joined Dortmund and there is certainly a trend in the last few years where we end up going for the same players but that's an area Dortmund has an advantage in.
Yeah I’d say Dortmund has an advantage over most of Europe’s elite when chasing for the signatures of hot prospects. It’s probably because they have a bit of a stepping stone reputation - ie great opportunity for development and Dortmund won’t stand in your way to move on when the time (and money!) is right. Bit of a win win in that sense.
 

kaiser1

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
2,034
Supports
Bayern Munich
That right there for me is the issue. If I run Leipzig, it is in my interest to sell Upamecano to anyone not Bayern. But most of the BL fans have accepted its their fault that Bayern can take whatever player they want from them.

Bayern announced they are signing Dayot when Lepizig still had a realistic chance of winning the league. This kind of thing is un imaginable in the Premier League.
You know how a release clause works right? The type of clause the selling club has no option but to sell like what Madrid did with Figo or what PSG did with Neymar even if it almost caused a riot
 

Jim Beam

Gets aroused by men in low socks
Joined
Feb 10, 2017
Messages
13,076
Location
All over the place
It is now 15 years ago that we lost Ballack to Chelsea and people considered that the next logical "step up" at the time, comparable to how a Sancho transfer would be viewed.
What a weird comparison. Those two cases (if Sancho one happens) couldn't be more different.
 

Cheimoon

Made of cheese
Scout
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
14,339
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
You know how a release clause works right? The type of clause the selling club has no option but to sell like what Madrid did with Figo or what PSG did with Neymar even if it almost caused a riot
That's what I was wondering about. People are blaming Leipzig for allowing Bayern to get stronger at their expense, but once Bayern triggered Upamecano's release clause, what could Leipzig realistically have done to stop him from joining Bayern? Advertise him to other big clubs outside Germany in the hope that someone will take him? That seems like a pretty feeble attempt once Bayern has triggered the clause, as the players at that moment probably already is close to or has reached a personal agreement with Bayern.

I get the impressions some sters project the dynamics of the EPL on the BL and then blame the BL subtop for not behaving like the EPL top 6 generally do among each other. But that doesn't make much sense.
 

Suedesi

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
23,873
Location
New York City
So many butt-hurt United fans in this thread, it's not even funny. Remember when United were a properly run club and would get the best players possible to strengthen the club's chances of silverware, did that devalue the Premiership in the 90's, early noughties - I guess we were not ruining the PL then.

Man Utd could have gotten Nagelsmann and Upamecano, we just didn't because we're not a well run club. We could have paid the clause for Upamecano. So all the comments towards Bayern are basically sour grapes at a club that is run extremely well from a commercial and football perspective.

Their dominance in the league is because of two fundamental reasons essentially - they are very well run AND other clubs are extremely poorly run. I brought up the Schalke example earlier, but how can a club have in its ranks Manuel Neuer, Mesut Ozil, Ilkay Gundogan, Leon Goretzka, Julian Draxler, Thilo Kehrer, Joel Matip, Leroy Sane, Saed Kolasinac, Benedikt Howevedes, Christoph Metzelder etc, etc and win feckall with all that talent? Not only that, but they have managed to relegate themselves. Forget rivalries, any Schalke promising player who wants to further his career would go to Bayern in pursuit of stability, career growth, trophies and money. Or he can take his chances at Schalke :lol::lol::lol:. The same could be said (to a lesser extent) for other clubs, Leverkusen, Hamburg, Berlin, Stuttgart, Bremen, Wolfsburg etc.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,791
Location
France
That's what I was wondering about. People are blaming Leipzig for allowing Bayern to get stronger at their expense, but once Bayern triggered Upamecano's release clause, what could Leipzig realistically have done to stop him from joining Bayern? Advertise him to other big clubs outside Germany in the hope that someone will take him? That seems like a pretty feeble attempt once Bayern has triggered the clause, as the players at that moment probably already is close to or has reached a personal agreement with Bayern.

I get the impressions some sters project the dynamics of the EPL on the BL and then blame the BL subtop for not behaving like the EPL top 6 generally do among each other. But that doesn't make much sense.
And interestingly the reason he had that clause was because he agreed to extend last year in order to not leave on a free this summer.
 

Lagger

Full Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
1,134
Supports
FC Bayern
The hell is going on here? Oh right, hating on Bayern, as usual... continue.
 

nuanced

loves geopolitical narrative
Joined
Oct 14, 2020
Messages
479
Ok fair enough, I agree that regularly refreshing the team with new players is very important for sustained success, but I think you're overstating the importance of some of these players in Bayern's dominance since 2012. That's not to say they're not good players, but United definitely has access to players of such quality.
I would have to disagree with that. United have had to pay good chunk of money to get players mediocre players from outside their league like Bailley, Lindelof, Depay, Mkhitaryan for high wages. If they want to buy any decent PL player, they end up spending as much as (and frequently more than) BM's erstwhile record transfer (41 Mil euros until 2019) for squad players like - Mata, Fellaini, Shaw, Matic.

Gomez, Mandzukic, Dante and Gustavo are all good players and played their part in Bayern's first treble, but their importance pretty much fizzled out after that, if they didn't leave straight away. Rode and Rudy are decent players, but just squad players at the end of the day. The same applies to Pizarro's second spell at Bayern, after all he was already 33 or so, and basically had Choupo Moting's role. I forgot Hummels, obviously he was important. Kimmich was a young player playing in the second league, even if ultimately he was bought from Stuttgart. And if media reports are to be believed, Gnabry was essentially loaned to Bremen in all but name rather than bought from them.
Agree with this apart from that Gomez was a 40 goal striker at the start of the last decade for them. He was poor at building up play, but was lethal in the penalty area. Agreed, that these players were never lynchpins for BM, but the fact is they were more than good for rest of the BL, and you need these sort of players if want to compete on all fronts throughout the season.

Refreshing the team continually has definitely been an important part for Bayern, but I think there are better examples than some of those names mentioned. After all they also bought Xabi Alonso, Thiago, Javi Martinez, Vidal, Tolisso, Bernat and tried to find long term replacements for Robbery in Shaquiri and Douglas Costa. On top of that other players that ultimately didn't succeed like Benatia, or Renato Sanches, and loan players James, Coutinho etc.

So overall I don't see how them refreshing the team, or their success in general, is very Bundesliga focussed at all.
As you say, they've failed in a lot of their international transfers, so how are they still on that crazy BL winning streak? They have poor transfers (generally outside their league) like most other clubs. In a highly competitive league like the PL, poor buys lead you to miss CL, while for BM the worst case scenario generally is a second place finish. My reading is that the baseline level for BM is the same as the best for most of the BL, when you add in world class talent outside the league, you have a team way above their competition and competent against European teams. If the BL baseline falls, then BM baseline would also be expected to fall, since those are the bread and butter players for BM.
 

Hansi Fick

New Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
5,057
Supports
FC Bayern
Well. Yay?
Things are moving too fast for me at this club right now.
They are, aren't they? Still haven't fuilly processed, and can't quite believe, that Brazzo and Flick ACTUALLY fell out to the point of Flick calling quits midseason. In the season after we won the treble.
It's just silly, honestly. But hey, let's enjoy the ride.
 

HerrLeinad

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
352
Supports
Bayern München
They are, aren't they? Still haven't fuilly processed, and can't quite believe, that Brazzo and Flick ACTUALLY fell out to the point of Flick calling quits midseason. In the season after we won the treble.
It's just silly, honestly. But hey, let's enjoy the ride.
Have you already created your new account "Julian Nagelmann"? :p ;)
 

Hansi Fick

New Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
5,057
Supports
FC Bayern
Will he still be managing RBL this season? I understand it with players, but with managers in the same league, won't that be a huge conflict of interest?
What's the conflict of interest? Bayern are not going to miss out on CL, and if Nagelsmann actually managed to beat Bayern to the league championship, he would have a massive bonus of authority and reputation coming in. Like Kovac beating us (undeservedly) in the Cup final after his hiring was announced.
While if he, let's say, bottles top 4 with Leipzig now, he's got question marks and media tension following him into the Bayern job. So I don't see where the conflict of interest would be. He has no incentive to do badly.
 

Boavista

Full Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
529
I would have to disagree with that. United have had to pay good chunk of money to get players mediocre players from outside their league like Bailley, Lindelof, Depay, Mkhitaryan for high wages. If they want to buy any decent PL player, they end up spending as much as (and frequently more than) BM's erstwhile record transfer (41 Mil euros until 2019) for squad players like - Mata, Fellaini, Shaw, Matic.
But now you're arguing in hindsight about who United bought, and the prices paid, which I think is a very different question than who they have access to or rather who they could be buying. Are players in England more expensive? Yeah, but you're comparing players that were bought to hopefully improve the first eleven at some point, with players that Bayern brought in as squad options like Rode or Rudy.. In many transfer dealings Bayern has had the good fortune that in most positions they already have exceptional players, so players they sign don't always have to replace the established player (immediately). For the most part United haven't really had that many completely undisputed players in a lot of positions for a long time. Hence you see fewer signings that are obviously squad options from the start.

The fact that many of United's signings fail to deliver doesn't mean that mediocre players cost a fortune necessarily, it just means that the players they have bought turned out mediocre for whatever reason. None of the players you listed there were brought in under the expectation that they weren't good players, or even as squad options. Someone like Daniel James, or Telles fit that description better. Bayern are penny pinchers a lot of the time, so a lot of players they would probably like to have are immediately out of the question, even players like Dest for instance. That being said, nothing is stopping United from buying the players Bayern bought cheaply. They won't magically be twice as expensive. Bayern buys the players they do, because those are the ones affordable to them, in the same way that Juventus for instance frequently target free agent players. Some players may end up preferring Bayern, but you rarely read about United being interested in the same players as them.

From the list of players you had mentioned earlier, there isn't many players I see that wouldn't have been possible for United. I do see players that United would never be interested in in the first place, but that's a different matter.
Agree with this apart from that Gomez was a 40 goal striker at the start of the last decade for them. He was poor at building up play, but was lethal in the penalty area. Agreed, that these players were never lynchpins for BM, but the fact is they were more than good for rest of the BL, and you need these sort of players if want to compete on all fronts throughout the season.
Yeah Gomez is a very underrated player, but a bit unfortunate always in the way that strikers can be the face of failure without necessarily being the cause; that final against Chelsea for instance. I kind of excluded him because his time at the club was already coming to an end by the time Bayern became so dominant. His best seasons were when Dortmund won the title.

As you say, they've failed in a lot of their international transfers, so how are they still on that crazy BL winning streak? They have poor transfers (generally outside their league) like most other clubs. In a highly competitive league like the PL, poor buys lead you to miss CL, while for BM the worst case scenario generally is a second place finish. My reading is that the baseline level for BM is the same as the best for most of the BL, when you add in world class talent outside the league, you have a team way above their competition and competent against European teams. If the BL baseline falls, then BM baseline would also be expected to fall, since those are the bread and butter players for BM.
Where did I say they failed a lot of international transfers? I don't think that's really the case. They've had their share of duds, but overall I think they've done pretty well with international transfers. Even with the ones that didn't succeed, Bayern have had such continuity in their team that compensated for players that didn't perform. That's down to having fantastic coaches in that time frame, but also the unexpected longevity of some players. Players brought in to replace Ribery and Robben for instance failed to do so, but it didn't matter because they just kept going at such a high level.

I'm not sure I follow you on the whole baseline thing, but if you're saying that Bayern's level would decrease if their domestic league stops producing talent, then I'd argue that the same applies to anywhere really. As for poor transfers leading to missing the CL in the PL.. not sure I agree, if you already have a good team to begin with. The inverse of that would be, that a team relies on good transfers to make top 4, which wouldn't really be as necessary if that club already had a very good team? And that's generally been the case for Bayern. I can't see a single season in which Bayern wouldn't have made the CL in the Premier League in the past decade.
 

GhastlyHun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
12,788
Location
Bavaria
Supports
Bayern München

"30m are really over the top for a 33y old who's only been sitting on the bench lately".
Can't argue with that.


Also...

:lol:
(For those unfamiliar with the kit: TSV 1860 München, Bayern's city / arch rivals of days gone by.)
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
37,331
Are you meaning to say that you weren't?
No, im saying we looked out for ourselves and were accused of killing English football. Bayern does it and its wouldn't you do it too?
The way Bayern acts is the exact doomsday scenario that was pushed forward for the Premier League last week but its 1 club instead of 6. Which is better... Someow.
 

Pep's Suit

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
1,705
Dortmund could be the best run club in the world but they earn 300M less than Bayern every season. And you have no chance to close that gap without big investment from rich owners. Look at Seria A. Juve would win another title even with Pirlo in charge if Suning didn't spend so much on Inter.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund

"30m are really over the top for a 33y old who's only been sitting on the bench lately".
Can't argue with that.


Also...

:lol:
(For those unfamiliar with the kit: TSV 1860 München, Bayern's city / arch rivals of days gone by.)
The German word for 30 is 25? :angel:
 

Baneofthegame

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2019
Messages
3,009
You can’t really blame Bayern for taking advantage of their situation, it’s essentially a one team league, if you ran Bayern, you would do the same thing.
 

Hansi Fick

New Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
5,057
Supports
FC Bayern
No, im saying we looked out for ourselves and were accused of killing English football. Bayern does it and its wouldn't you do it too?
The way Bayern acts is the exact doomsday scenario that was pushed forward for the Premier League last week but its 1 club instead of 6. Which is better... Someow.
Are you actually comparing signing a manager from another club with breaking away into another league that detaches itself from the football pyramid?
That's some next level whataboutism.

Disgusting post. Shame on you.

One would have thought the events of last week would have led to some reflection and humility.
 

Rektsanwalt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
1,571
Supports
Schalke 04
Bild reports both clubs agreed to a 15 million € transfer fee for Nagelsmann, which could become around 20 million € due to bonuses.

This is done imo. Maybe just a matter of hours until the clubs will officially declare him as Flick's successor.

Edit: reports are, it's a 5 year contract with 3 million € p. a. salary for Nagelsmann. Crazy if true, both figures.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund

Sky report that Bayern have come to an arrangement for the termination of Flick's contract and that Nagelsmann is going to sign a 5 year contract.

Bild reports both clubs agreed to a 15 million € transfer fee for Nagelsmann, which could become around 20 million € due to bonuses.

This is done imo. Maybe just a matter of hours until the clubs will officially declare him as Flick's successor.

Edit: reports are, it's a 5 year contract with 3 million € p. a. salary for Nagelsmann. Crazy if true, both figures.
Crazy low for the salary? That has to be bullshit, he can probably easily earn three times that. No way he'd sign a 5 year contract with these terms.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,715
Are you actually comparing signing a manager from another club with breaking away into another league that detaches itself from the football pyramid?
That's some next level whataboutism.

Disgusting post. Shame on you.

One would have thought the events of last week would have led to some reflection and humility.
:lol:
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
37,331
Are you actually comparing signing a manager from another club with breaking away into another league that detaches itself from the football pyramid?
That's some next level whataboutism.

Disgusting post. Shame on you.

One would have thought the events of last week would have led to some reflection and humility.
Its not whataboutism, its a direct comparison.
What difference would the hold of a super league side in England have v Bayern in Germany?Nobody can compete, in any way with Bayern. feck me you have Dortmund fans on here defending that domination.
At least 6 super league clubs would have 6 way fights for the title. Germany is better because its 1 dominating. A lot healthier im sure you agree.
Im sure youll have a lot of differences to post. One side goes around telling top players to stay put so they can sign them cheaply or on frees thus undercutting and unsettlng players... The other would have been in a super league.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
5,907
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
I want him to do well because I really rate him, but then don't want Bayern to win another title. What do I wish for? :nervous:

Flick going for the German NT job is great though :D
 

big rons sovereign

New Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Messages
6,160
I want him to do well because I really rate him, but then don't want Bayern to win another title. What do I wish for? :nervous:

Flick going for the German NT job is great though :D
Catch 22 that mate. Although I'd say wishing for Bayern not to win is a wasted wish since they play in a one 1½ team league.
 

2ndTouch

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
2,644
Supports
Bayern München
Crazy low for the salary? That has to be bullshit, he can probably easily earn three times that. No way he'd sign a 5 year contract with these terms.
Well, he isn't a free agent. These 20 or 30m we have to pay for him should be considered a part of the package
 

Rektsanwalt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
1,571
Supports
Schalke 04
Well, he isn't a free agent. These 20 or 30m we have to pay for him should be considered a part of the package
I agree, the ~20mio € that Bayern might have to pay in the end with bonuses should be considered. I still think that 3mio € sounds a bit low for such a long contract. It seems unlikely that Nagelsmann, even if a transfer fee is paid, would earn less than half what Flick earned at Bayern. And almost 1/8 of what Guardiola earned at Bayern.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
15,626
Location
Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
confirmed:


Well, he isn't a free agent. These 20 or 30m we have to pay for him should be considered a part of the package
I could see Nagelsmann making some concessions, but letting go of like 2/3 of what he might be able to earn elsewhere/under different circumstances in combination with a very long contract sounds far fetched.
 
Last edited:

slored1

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
3,532
An interesting appointment. I think he is a bit too young for the top level, but what do I know.