Julian Nagelsmann | Sacked and replaced by Tuchel

SAFMUTD

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Yeah you could see it that way, but I wouldn't say they lack ambition as much as they simply lack money. They have to be realistic in terms of their capabilities. Acting with too much ambition means taking risks that can come back to bite them. The reality simply is that the gap to most teams is so large, that what you called the double effect in another post is really not as relevant as you think. To most teams behind Bayern it makes no difference whether they're losing their players to Bayern or to someone else, because Bayern would just buy someone else and not be any weaker for it. So that gap exists no matter if they refuse or not.

Clubs that have ambition either don't have the money to compete yet, or don't have the money nor any sense if you look at the likes of Schalke. As hopeless as Bayern's dominance may seem, clubs are growing in their shadow. Unfortunately for them Bayern is also growing constantly, so the gap is unlikely to ever close entirely but I don't think it's necessary to be on completely equal level financially to sustain a challenge.
I get what you say, maybe they just know and accept the gap between them is so big that there's really nothing they can do to close it enough to actually compete with them. Maybe as you say is not lack of ambition but just resignation.

Truth is unless a massive take over is done in Germany or Bayern suffering an unprecedented crisis I don't think things will change much in the next year's.

The gap is huge and it's increasing year by year, even last season when Bayern was a disaster and started the league terribly they managed to win it walking.
 

SAFMUTD

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Probably yes, they'd expected to have sold him earlier for more. But that's the thing - he'd have left earlier, and then in the season after he didn't leave for more, they got to a CL semifinal with important contributions from him, which is worth a lot too, financially and in other ways.
I get that, but at the end they are empty handed and received an average fee for a top promising player. I don't know how the supporters keep up with that, I would be depressed if I was supporting any club from Germany that is not Bayern. Just knowing there's no light ahead of the tunnel as soon as you get closer Bayern will dismantle you must be a hard pill to swallow.
 

Hansi Fick

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I get that, but at the end they are empty handed and received an average fee for a top promising player. I don't know how the supporters keep up with that, I would be depressed if I was supporting any club from Germany that is not Bayern. Just knowing there's no light ahead of the tunnel as soon as you get closer Bayern will dismantle you must be a hard pill to swallow.
Nope they would have been empty handed if they hadn't managed to get him to extend with that lower clause.

But don't worry too much over Leipzig, you can forget about them now. They came up in 10 years, they have peaked, and now they will perish.
Rangnick gone, Nagelsmann gone, DoF leaving, both CBs leaving. You won't be hearing from them again.
 

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Yes I'm aware is a negotiation between the player and club, but it's easier to negotiate a high clause when the player is an unknown. Not all players are child super stars like Haaland, most are just happy to have the chance and then the club is in a stronger position to negotiate a higher clause.

They do it in Spain all the time, Kounde has a 70M clause, how did Sevilla get him to agree that? Well they sign him when he was young, unrated and didn't worth what he worths today. Same case can be replicated to players in the Bundesliga.
Upamecano wasn't an unknown player and he was in high demand when he was 15 with Bayern, Arsenal, United and Salzburg after him, he wasn't an unknown when he moved to Leipzig from Salzburg and his extension was in 2020 when he wasn't an unknown either. Upamecano did the exact same thing that Haaland did with Dortmund but sooner.
And Koundé does whatever he wants, sometimes players are more interested in what they are going to earn then how restrictive a contract can be. If you take Sevilla as an example Rakitic had an 18m clause that Barcelona triggered.
 

VorZakone

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Why do you think they're incapable of doing it?
I don't know. And that's why I don't call them un-ambitious or un-aggressive. I assume however that Dortmund aren't stupid at negotiating and have tried everything that you've said.
 

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Well they might set their release clauses way too low the funny thing is it seems only Bayern takes advantage of that. Just look at Havertz and Werner, do you seriously think if Bayern was into them they would have had to pay the same amount Chelsea did?

About the "fortunate" to get players with their contracts running out, its not really luck at all. Bayern has been critiziced because they persuade players so they dont renew and they sign them for free.
You can't be for real dude. A few years ago Juventus were the kings of signing great players on a free and winning things... Pogba, Pirlo, Khedira, Ramsey, Rabiot etc, that strategy worked until it didn't. Then they went full 180 and bought Higuain and Ronaldo for 100m each with mixed results. Clearly not so smart.

Now Bayern are kings of taking advantage of low release clauses. Bayern also let Thiago go for a cheap, Alaba for free and Kroos for cheap. You win some, you lose some, unless you're run by Woodward in which case you keep paying top dollar for Phil Jones and all your discarded players win Serie A under Conte.
 

SAFMUTD

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Nope they would have been empty handed if they hadn't managed to get him to extend with that lower clause.

But don't worry too much over Leipzig, you can forget about them now. They came up in 10 years, they have peaked, and now they will perish.
Rangnick gone, Nagelsmann gone, DoF leaving, both CBs leaving. You won't be hearing from them again.
Hopefully they can keep up but yeah it seems their "golden" era lasted only 2 seasons and they got no trophies to show for it.
 

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First because we are not the smartest club in the planet, thats clear and second because is not only triggering the clause and the player is yours. The player must want to join you, and the vast majority of the players in the bundesliga want to join Bayern. Like I said they have the great advantage that most german players are his fans, its easier to convince/attract a player who's dream is to play for you isnt it?

Any player from any team in the bundesliga wouldnt think twice about joining Bayern, its as if Bayern wants a player from there they can take him. Haaland for a change wont join them because they got Lewandowski, Sancho wont because he's english and they have his position covered. But as soon as Bayern needs a player from a Bundesliga team we all know they'll get him, and they'll get him cheaply.
Great theory, except Dayot Upamecano is a French player, so I doubt he's enamored with the Bundesliga more than the average professional.
 

SAFMUTD

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Upamecano wasn't an unknown player and he was in high demand when he was 15 with Bayern, Arsenal, United and Salzburg after him, he wasn't an unknown when he moved to Leipzig from Salzburg and his extension was in 2020 when he wasn't an unknown either. Upamecano did the exact same thing that Haaland did with Dortmund but sooner.
And Koundé does whatever he wants, sometimes players are more interested in what they are going to earn then how restrictive a contract can be. If you take Sevilla as an example Rakitic had an 18m clause that Barcelona triggered.
Maybe Upamecano was a promising youngster, I didn't knew him before Leipzig but I doubt he was in such a strong position as a teen ager to set his own conditions. Very few players can.
 

SAFMUTD

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Great theory, except Dayot Upamecano is a French player, so I doubt he's enamored with the Bundesliga more than the average professional.
Don't you think Bayern has a better shot at getting any player from the Bundesliga than any other club? German or not.
 

SAFMUTD

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I don't know. And that's why I don't call them un-ambitious or un-aggressive. I assume however that Dortmund aren't stupid at negotiating and have tried everything that you've said.
Haha well then let's leave it there mate, so basically what you are saying it's let give them the benefit of the doubt just because. If they have done anything criticizable they must have had their reasons. Under that premise I could argue that Woodward is a genius.
 

JPRouve

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Maybe Upamecano was a promising youngster, I didn't knew him before Leipzig but I doubt he was in such a strong position as a teen ager to set his own conditions. Very few players can.
This is confusing, Upamecano signed a new contract last summer, he wasn't a teenager or unknown. The contract that he signed in 2017 was expiring in 2021.
 

SAFMUTD

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This is confusing, Upamecano signed a new contract last summer, he wasn't a teenager or unknown. The contract that he signed in 2017 was expiring in 2021.
I was talking about getting a bigger clause when he was 17-18 in 2017. Not last year when he was in has last year of contract.
 

JPRouve

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I was talking about getting a bigger clause when he was 17-18 in 2017. Not last year when he was in has last year of contract.
He had a bigger clause but I'm not sure how that's relevant, he didn't move before 2020.
 

SAFMUTD

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He had a bigger clause but I'm not sure how that's relevant, he didn't move before 2020.
I was talking about general clauses in the Bundesliga not only Upamecano. I get he did have a lower one because the club was against the wall with the contract running out. But it seems most Bundesliga players have low clauses. Many below their market value or slightly above, when in Spain the clause is just some high fee that almost never gets triggered.
 

Hansi Fick

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I was talking about general clauses in the Bundesliga not only Upamecano. I get he did have a lower one because the club was against the wall with the contract running out. But it seems most Bundesliga players have low clauses. Many below their market value or slightly above, when in Spain the clause is just some high fee that almost never gets triggered.
Which other clauses are you talking about then?

As for the bolded, again: In Spain a contract HAS TO HAVE a release clause, which is why many are set so high that they won't be triggered. Are you able to understand the difference?
 

Boavista

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Don't you think Bayern has a better shot at getting any player from the Bundesliga than any other club? German or not.
Maybe, Bayern have been one of the top 3 favourites for the CL for a decade now. Only Real and Barcelona have been at a similar level I would say, so if one those came calling, players would definitely listen. But they're not generally after the same players Bayern pursue.

The top Premier League teams obviously have a lot of pull too, but you make it seem like Bayern's main attraction is that they're in the same league which I don't think is the case. PL teams can definitely compete against Bayern for the signature of BL players, but they don't always do that for whatever reason. At the end of the day though, Bayern have generally been a better team than most English teams so it's not a surprise players sometimes prefer them for other reasons than just staying in the country.
 

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Don't you think Bayern has a better shot at getting any player from the Bundesliga than any other club? German or not.
Sure, as the richest club in the league they do. But world class players have left Bundesliga to play abroad as well... Kroos, KDB, Gundogan, Ozil, Khedira, Haavertz (not WC yet but he will be), Vidal (during the Juve era) etc, etc.

Also forget that for a sec - they're a German team so the core will be German or Bundesliga players, but they were able to get Coutinho on a free loan from Barca and James from Real on a cheap 2-yr loan with a ridiculous buyout (which they didn't exercise). They got Coman on a free from Juve. They got Robben very cheap from Madrid. Ribery for peanuts. Sane for a very reasonable price. Douglas Costa on a loan from Juve. So they get great value from other big clubs in Europe. They're just shrewd in the market, accept that.
 

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Hopefully it clicks for them and we can see several teams challenging for the Bundesliga. Someone mentioned here some time ago that Bayern has more Bundesliga titles than all the other clubs combined. They won 15 of the last 20 titles, and are on their way to win their 9th in a row. It has got to the point where Bundesliga has become a given that Bayern will win it but you see it because other clubs have some interesting youngsters now and then.
Yeah, absolutely, it's a bore - which is a shame especially as it's really exciting right behind them.

Guess we (well, the non-Bayern fans) have to hope Bayern fall of a cliff when their top brass resign and some of that business acumen disappears. Although signing Nagelsmann might give them a long-term management edge that might be hard to overcome. But let's see how that goes for him.
 

SAFMUTD

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Which other clauses are you talking about then?

As for the bolded, again: In Spain a contract HAS TO HAVE a release clause, which is why many are set so high that they won't be triggered. Are you able to understand the difference?
I thought they were mandatory in Germany as well. Then it makes even less sense to have lower clauses. It's just a lose-lose situation for the club.

Which other clauses? well a poster back told the reason why Bayern got Dante, Pavard and Gotze so cheap was because they had triggered their release clause.
 

JPRouve

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I was talking about general clauses in the Bundesliga not only Upamecano. I get he did have a lower one because the club was against the wall with the contract running out. But it seems most Bundesliga players have low clauses. Many below their market value or slightly above, when in Spain the clause is just some high fee that almost never gets triggered.
Most Bundesliga players don't have clauses at all, the ones that demand clauses aren't going to negotiate ones that are unrealistic, it would defy the point of the clause. In Spain clausula de rescision are mandatory and not be confused with release clauses, the former is a way for a player to literally buy his contract it's not a transfer fee, players that are playing for big clubs generally have clauses that are unaffordable but players in smaller clubs and lower leagues have very affordable clauses. A simple example would be Braithwaite which is why Barcelona picked him last year.
 

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I thought they were mandatory in Germany as well. Then it makes even less sense to have lower clauses. It's just a lose-lose situation for the club.

Which other clauses? well a poster back told the reason why Bayern got Dante, Pavard and Gotze so cheap was because they had triggered their release clause.
Ah that's where the confusion comes from. No, they are not. The vast majority of Bundesliga players do not have release clauses in their contract. And the ones who have, accordingly, made a point out of negotiating for one.

And neither Dante's nor Pavard's, nor Götze's release clause would have been considered particularly cheap at the time of them signing the respective contract...
 

SAFMUTD

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Maybe, Bayern have been one of the top 3 favourites for the CL for a decade now. Only Real and Barcelona have been at a similar level I would say, so if one those came calling, players would definitely listen. But they're not generally after the same players Bayern pursue.

The top Premier League teams obviously have a lot of pull too, but you make it seem like Bayern's main attraction is that they're in the same league which I don't think is the case. PL teams can definitely compete against Bayern for the signature of BL players, but they don't always do that for whatever reason. At the end of the day though, Bayern have generally been a better team than most English teams so it's not a surprise players sometimes prefer them for other reasons than just staying in the country.
Sure if Bayern was a disaster players wouldn't be attracted to them but moving to a different country has proven to be a big deal in the past for some players. Specially when England is involved which is not precisely known for their great weather.

It's the same in each country, Barca and Madrid attract the Spanish players, Inter, Milan and Juve the Italians, etc.

The main difference is that Bayern is the only big club in Germany. So they face virtually no competition.
 

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I thought they were mandatory in Germany as well. Then it makes even less sense to have lower clauses. It's just a lose-lose situation for the club.

Which other clauses? well a poster back told the reason why Bayern got Dante, Pavard and Gotze so cheap was because they had triggered their release clause.
Does it make less sense? To me it makes a lot more sense, if you think about it from the perspective that whenever there's a clause, it's not because the club wanted it. I think it's safe to say that whenever there's a release clause it's because the player insisted on it.
 

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Deschamps likes players that play for Bayern. In the french national team there is often as many players playing for Bayern than for PSG...

And Upemecano lived 2 years in Salzburg - he might like the area and the mountains...

Who knows... he probably did not sleep in Bayern bed sheets as young kid...

------------
About Upamecano's clause...
Everybody actually thought he would get a transfer last season as his contract ran out this season. But then came Covid. Yes, it could be that Upamecano always had a transfer to Bayern in mind, but Bayern had enough defenders then and with Alaba, Boateng and Süle getting a starting spot was a big question! This season it looks different. Atleast there were already rumours about that last season!

At the end the Leipzig side and Upamecano made a deal. Last year a transfer to any other club would not have been a good deal for Leipzig anyways because of Covid and only one year contract left. As it was now it was fair to every side! They got another season with a very good defender!
 

SAFMUTD

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Sure, as the richest club in the league they do. But world class players have left Bundesliga to play abroad as well... Kroos, KDB, Gundogan, Ozil, Khedira, Haavertz (not WC yet but he will be), Vidal (during the Juve era) etc, etc.

Also forget that for a sec - they're a German team so the core will be German or Bundesliga players, but they were able to get Coutinho on a free loan from Barca and James from Real on a cheap 2-yr loan with a ridiculous buyout (which they didn't exercise). They got Coman on a free from Juve. They got Robben very cheap from Madrid. Ribery for peanuts. Sane for a very reasonable price. Douglas Costa on a loan from Juve. So they get great value from other big clubs in Europe. They're just shrewd in the market, accept that.
Yes they are great negotiators and get great deals, no one is denying that. They're a great truly well run club, top management, top squad, great history, financially strong, all the components to be a truly giant of the sport.

But that doesn't have anything to do with what we are discussing, which is that the other Bundesliga clubs work as seeders for them.
 

SAFMUTD

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Most Bundesliga players don't have clauses at all, the ones that demand clauses aren't going to negotiate ones that are unrealistic, it would defy the point of the clause. In Spain clausula de rescision are mandatory and not be confused with release clauses, the former is a way for a player to literally buy his contract it's not a transfer fee, players that are playing for big clubs generally have clauses that are unaffordable but players in smaller clubs and lower leagues have very affordable clauses. A simple example would be Braithwaite which is why Barcelona picked him last year.
My mistake I thought they were mandatory on Germany as well. But then my point stands I was saying they should get high release clauses so they can not be triggered easily, but if they're not obligated to have them then its under the clubs control to sell the player for the right price.
 

JPRouve

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Deschamps likes players that play for Bayern. In the french national team there is often as many players playing for Bayern than for PSG...

And Upemecano lived 2 years in Salzburg - he might like the area and the mountains...

Who knows... he probably did not sleep in Bayern bed sheets as young kid...

------------
About Upamecano's clause...
Everybody actually thought he would get a transfer last season as his contract ran out this season. But then came Covid. Yes, it could be that Upamecano always had a transfer to Bayern in mind, but Bayern had enough defenders then and with Alaba, Boateng and Süle getting a starting spot was a big question! This season it looks different. Atleast there were already rumours about that last season!

At the end the Leipzig side and Upamecano made a deal. Last year a transfer to any other club would not have been a good deal for Leipzig anyways because of Covid and only one year contract left. As it was now it was fair to every side! They got another season with a very good defender!
Interestingly, the rumour says that his favor absolutely wanted him to sign for Bayern instead of Salzburg and with the help of his father Bayern tried to convince until the last minute.
 

Hansi Fick

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My mistake I thought they were mandatory on Germany as well. But then my point stands I was saying they should get high release clauses so they can not be triggered easily, but if they're not obligated to have them then its under the clubs control to sell the player for the right price.
It's a tradeoff.
Gladbach, for example, as one of the upper table clubs whose players have clauses sometimes, have relatively little money and can't pay the kind of wages you would need to pay to have a squad of that level.
So if must be, they get quality players on lower wages they can afford to pay, with the tradeoff of conceding them a release clause. That's how they are able to overperform their budget.
 

JPRouve

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My mistake I thought they were mandatory on Germany as well. But then my point stands I was saying they should get high release clauses so they can not be triggered easily, but if they're not obligated to have them then its under the clubs control to sell the player for the right price.
You seem to completely ignore the fact that it's the players that demand them and that you are not getting the players in question without the release clauses. To make it clear, you either accept the clause or the player goes somewhere else.
 

SAFMUTD

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Ah that's where the confusion comes from. No, they are not. The vast majority of Bundesliga players do not have release clauses in their contract. And the ones who have, accordingly, made a point out of negotiating for one.

And neither Dante's nor Pavard's, nor Götze's release clause would have been considered particularly cheap at the time of them signing the respective contract...
Then they must have thought Dante was shit at the time since his clause was about 8M.

I still don't understand why would clubs agree to have a release clause if not mandatory, specially if the clause is low. Sure it may sound good at the time of signing the contract but the club can only lose there.

If the player doesn't reach the heights then no one will pay the clause if they do then they'll pay it, it they overachieve it they'll still pay the same amount. Makes no sense to me. I get it from the players point of view to protect themselves from the club asking too much for them and stopping their move to a bigger club.
 

SAFMUTD

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Does it make less sense? To me it makes a lot more sense, if you think about it from the perspective that whenever there's a clause, it's not because the club wanted it. I think it's safe to say that whenever there's a release clause it's because the player insisted on it.
Yes totally agree, it's a card that works totally in the players favour.
 

Hansi Fick

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Then they must have thought Dante was shit at the time since his clause was about 8M.
The fact that you think 8m € in 2012 is a price reserved for shit players goes to show how little you know about football outside of the PL..
 

SAFMUTD

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It's a tradeoff.
Gladbach, for example, as one of the upper table clubs whose players have clauses sometimes, have relatively little money and can't pay the kind of wages you would need to pay to have a squad of that level.
So if must be, they get quality players on lower wages they can afford to pay, with the tradeoff of conceding them a release clause. That's how they are able to overperform their budget.
I get it that way, the player accepting a lower wage in exchange of being assured that he'll be let go easily if a bigger club comes calling. Makes sense for the player, as for the club I would have to look into the specifics of every club because unless they are truly broke or something I don't get why they'll accept that.

I mean I don't know how much can they cut the players wage, but I don't think they can cut it more than 20-30%?
 

SAFMUTD

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The fact that you think 8m € in 2012 is a price reserved for shit players goes to show how little you know about football outside of the PL..
Well 8M is a small fee now and was a small fee back then, in any top league. I know the PL moves way more money than the BL but let's not pretend 8M is anything remotely close to a decent fee.
 

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Sure if Bayern was a disaster players wouldn't be attracted to them but moving to a different country has proven to be a big deal in the past for some players. Specially when England is involved which is not precisely known for their great weather.

It's the same in each country, Barca and Madrid attract the Spanish players, Inter, Milan and Juve the Italians, etc.

The main difference is that Bayern is the only big club in Germany. So they face virtually no competition.
England's weather is not as bad as it's made out to be. That might be a bigger issue if you're from Brazil or somewhere mediterranean.

And sure, some players may prefer to stay close to home, but my point was more that Bayern is a very attractive destination independent of that.

But never mind that, as far as I know Bayern rarely targets the same players that other top teams seriously go after. In hindsight you always read opinions like why didn't other teams come in for those players if they only cost x. Sometimes it seems that they know who they want years in advance, and it almost doesn't matter if those players go through patches of bad form. So in the end it rarely gets tested if Bayern has significantly more pull than Barca/Real/City over Bundesliga players, because there's rarely really a fight over the same players. And when there is competition for that signature, eg De Bruyne, Sane, Havertz, those players often become too expensive for Bayern.
 

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Well 8M is a small fee now and was a small fee back then, in any top league. I know the PL moves way more money than the BL but let's not pretend 8M is anything remotely close to a decent fee.
We're talking about a player that moved from Standard Liège to Gladbach in 2009. No, 8m € is not a small fee in that context (and Gladbach sure did pay much less for him).
Are you ever going to try to give a thought to the replies you get?
 

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I get it that way, the player accepting a lower wage in exchange of being assured that he'll be let go easily if a bigger club comes calling. Makes sense for the player, as for the club I would have to look into the specifics of every club because unless they are truly broke or something I don't get why they'll accept that.

I mean I don't know how much can they cut the players wage, but I don't think they can cut it more than 20-30%?
Maybe because Dortmund would prefer to have Haaland instead of not having him?