What’s your best case outcome from these protests?

ElCuddlos

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
64
Weren't we a publicly listed company before the Glazers came in? What's to stop them just selling up by issuing shares? We wouldn't need to roll the dice with another billionaire owner and fans could buy shares to have voting rights. Sure, there probably aren't enough fans to buy the whole club and there would doubtless be some investment vehicles that would come in just for the dividends but hopefully that wouldn't cost more than servicing the debt. At the very least the Glazers should sell enough of their stake to pay off the debt and give the fans some representation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sultan

pacifictheme

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Messages
7,665
I hear a lot of Glazer hating fans say they only care about getting top 4 and they don't care about competitions such as FA Cup and Europa League. Why is it one law for them particular fans and one law for the Glazers?
What does that have to do with anything.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,545
Location
Somewhere out there
There isn't a fairytale ending to any of this, and there definitely isn't a plan B at the moment. I honestly think, as bad as the Glazers are, that there is a decent chance we'd all look back 5 years after they've gone and wish they were still here.
Agreed.

Best case for me is new government and FA legislation that gives fans voting rights on big decisions.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,545
Location
Somewhere out there
Weren't we a publicly listed company before the Glazers came in? What's to stop them just selling up by issuing shares? We wouldn't need to roll the dice with another billionaire owner and fans could buy shares to have voting rights. Sure, there probably aren't enough fans to buy the whole club and there would doubtless be some investment vehicles that would come in just for the dividends but hopefully that wouldn't cost more than servicing the debt. At the very least the Glazers should sell enough of their stake to pay off the debt and give the fans some representation.
Pretty certain that the Glazers stand to make an absolute fortune more by selling “the club”, rather than selling their shares on the open market.
There’s a reason Mike Ashley who desperately wants rid of Newcastle doesn’t just sell shares to get rid.
 

alexthelion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
3,601
Eh? Gary is working for the company that started all of this commercialisation to start with. Its a bit rich of him or he didn't want the SPL as a competitor to his company's, Sky broadcast?
Exactly, Sky (and to a lesser extent, BT) are also a major problem that needs/will need to be looked at. Sooner rather than later for me.
 

RedChisel

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 24, 2018
Messages
606
Interesting how some fans are happy to become a tourism promotions department of a murderous and evil regime just so they can bask in that sweet sweet reflected glory again.

How is being owned by the Saudis the "United Way" or in line with the soul of the club? Baffles me how morally corrupt fans can be so they get to see some trophies lifted.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
I think I’d like to see a better footballing structure at the club, a clear separation between the money men and the football people. And not just people who happen to have played here I think that’s lazy and contributory to stagnation

Greater engagement with fans and for them to be forced to communicate two or three times a year and meet with fans groups and work with them constructively to answer questions and address concerns.
 

Gordon S

Full Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,524
If a guy like Daniel Ek could throw a bid for Arsenal, surely other similar superrich businesspeople could do that with us?
There must be better alternatives out there to MBS? Bezos, Musk, Page, Brin, Ma?
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,545
Location
Somewhere out there
If a guy like Daniel Ek could throw a bid for Arsenal, surely other similar superrich businesspeople could do that with us?
There must be better alternatives out there to MBS? Bezos, Musk, Page, Brin, Ma?
Why would Dan Ek be a good owner? His net worth is half of Stan Kroenke, do we just like Spotify and think that’ll make him good at owning a footy club?
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
If a guy like Daniel Ek could throw a bid for Arsenal, surely other similar superrich businesspeople could do that with us?
There must be better alternatives out there to MBS? Bezos, Musk, Page, Brin, Ma?
Sure but you can’t force people to buy a football club. Far more likely we’ll be bought by a consortium who will recognise the untapped revenue potential in things like the physical assets and infrastructure, stadium name, ending the collective negotiation rights for domestic games and resign up to a revised version of the super league.

How many flares do you think it’ll take for the collection of the nameless and faceless investors of the Synergeitc Investment Enterprise Corporation to give a shit about fan opinion?

These people are sharks who will exploit. They won’t give a feck if we turn up to game against Sheffield United in green and gold knickers
 

Roboc7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2014
Messages
6,562
There isn't a fairytale ending to any of this, and there definitely isn't a plan B at the moment. I honestly think, as bad as the Glazers are, that there is a decent chance we'd all look back 5 years after they've gone and wish they were still here.
I agree there isn’t a fairytale ending but that will always be the case and Glazers won’t be here forever. The big problem with the Glazers carrying on as they are is in five years there will still be no investment in infrastructure and money will continue to drain from the club.

When these guys do leave the club will not be in a good state and will have been left behind in number of areas.

The club is a business whether people like it or not but there’s no medium to long term strategy with the Glazers other than lining their pockets.

I also don’t understand why people talk about the Saudi’s so much, they are going to buy Newcastle or stopped from buying a Premier League team. Those are the two scenarios, not going to buy Utd.
 

Gordon S

Full Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
3,524
Why would Dan Ek be a good owner? His net worth is half of Stan Kroenke, do we just like Spotify and think that’ll make him good at owning a footy club?
I obviously haven´t got a clue if he would be a good owner? I have absolutely no idea if any of the guys i mentioned would be better than our current owners. But if we are desperate to get Glazers out and certainly don´t want MBS, who or what could we possibly hope for?
 

padzilla

Hipster
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Messages
3,329
Can the UK government enforce a 50 + 1 ownership model like there is in Germany? Would it even be legal or would the government even want to given the Tories are not exactly renowned for fighting the good fight on behalf of the common man against big business and absentee multi-millionaire owners.
 

stw2022

New Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
3,687
Weren't we a publicly listed company before the Glazers came in? What's to stop them just selling up by issuing shares? We wouldn't need to roll the dice with another billionaire owner and fans could buy shares to have voting rights. Sure, there probably aren't enough fans to buy the whole club and there would doubtless be some investment vehicles that would come in just for the dividends but hopefully that wouldn't cost more than servicing the debt. At the very least the Glazers should sell enough of their stake to pay off the debt and give the fans some representation.
Selling enough shares to raise capital for huge investment in stadium, one or two huge summers in the transfer market whilst maintaining overall control of the club will be how this ends.

Sorry for the spoiler
 

diarm

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
16,681
It could also force the Glazers to start making decisions in the best interest of the club.

I would settle for the following commitments:
  • No more dividends taken out until the debt is cleared.
  • A written promise never to engage in talks about another breakaway league.
  • A 5 year plan for development and renovation of the stadium and facilities.
  • A CEO with a football first background to replace Woodward.
  • A written promise never to sell the club to the Saudis (or another such prehistoric and murderous regime).
Those 5 commitments would be enough for me to give the Glazers more time to rebuild their ownership of the club.
 

the_answer

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
104
If we continue we can force the Glazers to sell this club for well under 4bn.
Which will help to make the club more attractive for potential buyers AND also we warn the next buyers that they have to put the clubs interest at heart (I doubt any American billionaire who just want to profit would want to deal with this kind of issues again).
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,203
Weren't we a publicly listed company before the Glazers came in? What's to stop them just selling up by issuing shares? We wouldn't need to roll the dice with another billionaire owner and fans could buy shares to have voting rights. Sure, there probably aren't enough fans to buy the whole club and there would doubtless be some investment vehicles that would come in just for the dividends but hopefully that wouldn't cost more than servicing the debt. At the very least the Glazers should sell enough of their stake to pay off the debt and give the fans some representation.
Unfortunately the shares currently available on the stock market are less than 20% of the total shares in the club. If the Glazers made the other 80% available the share price would tank. They need to find somebody who will buy them in bulk.

For me, the best case outcome is this convinces them it's time to look for that buyer.
 

RoyH1

Full Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
5,887
Location
DKNY
Interesting how some fans are happy to become a tourism promotions department of a murderous and evil regime just so they can bask in that sweet sweet reflected glory again.

How is being owned by the Saudis the "United Way" or in line with the soul of the club? Baffles me how morally corrupt fans can be so they get to see some trophies lifted.
I don't get that either. I want no part of the Saudi regime buying us.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

Full Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Messages
21,629
Location
Copenhagen
Supports
Time Travel
I'd be enraged if the premier league screw us over by taking us from the Glazers to the Saudis in the span of a decade and half. Neither of those should pass the fit and proper persons test.
 

jojojo

JoJoJoJoJoJoJo
Staff
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
38,145
Location
Welcome to Manchester reception committee
Legislation from government and regulation from the football authorities.

The 50 + 1 thing offers a model from a neighbour.

The fit and proper person business needs actual teeth. You're neither fit not proper if you want to undermine the foundations of the game, or damage the links between a club and its community.

I admit all this may come too late for United (and Bury and lots of other clubs) but with luck it won't come too late for football. At which point, I'm hoping that the Glazers spot that their asset isn't looking that shiny and start selling it off at a (voting) share price that actually reflects its ability to makes money (not its imaginary ability to make money at some point in the future provided it gets all the rule changes overturned)
 

Escobar

Shameless Musketeer
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
30,063
Location
La-La-Land
Best? That a new ownership model is enforced. Wont happen though. What wont happen either is that they will sell. So I am rather pessimistic overall
 

DRJosh

Full Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
2,845
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Supports
United minus the Glazers
Best outcome? We bring in a top player in the next transfer window even if the intention behind it is to temporarily appease fans, however short-sighted this is.
I doubt the owners would sell but they would thread more cautiously in future - at least when it comes to underestimating fans.
 

AneRu

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
3,065
Selling enough shares to raise capital for huge investment in stadium, one or two huge summers in the transfer market whilst maintaining overall control of the club will be how this ends.

Sorry for the spoiler
You could be on to something but it's the Glazers we talking about and it wouldnt surprise me if they do sell off a significant portion and kept it to themselves. They have always had that option and they haven't exercised it to get rid of the debt, for example.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,413
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
I think any chance of the Glazers having the frugal window they were 100% planning has gone out the window. We will definitely use player sales to raise a lot of the funds but I think we are going to spend heavily now. Not that it should make any difference to anyone’s opinions but there is no way in my mind that the Glazer’s will be able to think about welcoming these fans back into Old Trafford if they’ve not invested in the squad this summer.
 

IncyWincySpider

Full Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
497
The best outcome would be that the UK government bought the club, restructured the ownership model to give fans more of a voice, and then sold shares on the market again with the new model in place. Don't see that happening though.

If the Glazers sell it's likely to be to an investment group that will be no different in practice to the Glazers themselves, or to a regime of religious fanatics who routinely commit human rights atrocities.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
Two outcomes should come from this.
The Glazers should take note of this and start listening to the fans. A plan should be made to invest in the club, reduce the debt and improve facilities.

A second outcome would be a consortium of business people willing to buy the club, like the Red Knights, who have a fan spokesperson on the board.

This is the preferred outcome and would give the fans a say.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,350
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I think any chance of the Glazers having the frugal window they were 100% planning has gone out the window. We will definitely use player sales to raise a lot of the funds but I think we are going to spend heavily now. Not that it should make any difference to anyone’s opinions but there is no way in my mind that the Glazer’s will be able to think about welcoming these fans back into Old Trafford if they’ve not invested in the squad this summer.
Or they think if this is what the fans think of us after a net spend higher than almost every club in Europe since 2013 (second only to City in PL, nearly twice as much as Arsenal in third place) why throw good money after bad? They could stop investing in the squad altogether and make us even more of a cash cow, saving their money for “franchises” that show them more appreciation and a more level playing field than trying to compete with gulf states to win trophies.

Table below is transfer income vs spend since 2013.


City£367.95m£1232.45m£864.5m
Man Utd£335.35m£1078.07m£742.72m
Arsenal£252.5m£697.44m£444.94m
Chelsea£739.7m£1119.65m£379.95m
Liverpool£541.05m£772.12m£231.07m
Tottenham£447.31m£615.21m£167.9m

Which brings me to a follow up question from the OP. If you’re a potential “benevolent billionaire” owner that many fans see as the best outcome from these protests, do scenes like we saw yesterday make you more - or less - enthusiastic about taking the Glazer’s place on the hot seat?
 
Last edited:

sglowrider

Thinks the caf is 'wokeish'.
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Messages
25,182
Location
Hell on Earth
Which brings me to a follow up question from the OP. If you’re a potential “benevolent billionaire” owner that many fans see as the best outcome from these protests, do scenes like we saw yesterday make you more - or less - enthusiastic about taking the Glazer’s place on the hot seat?
Has there ever been a beloved owner in the PL? The Thai owners of Leicester are one that comes to mind but he has the unfair advantage of having died on the grounds of the stadium.
But I think the expectations of Top 4 clubs are different. Otherwise, most owners are disliked at best or hated usually. We would need a multi-multi billionaire United fan buyer at £4Billion. Possibly like only a handful in the world that consist of 500million United fans.

So we are left with Putin, MBS -- white washers, and/or Xi Jin-Ping who apparently is a United fan.
 

MU655

Full Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Messages
1,258
Weren't we a publicly listed company before the Glazers came in? What's to stop them just selling up by issuing shares? We wouldn't need to roll the dice with another billionaire owner and fans could buy shares to have voting rights. Sure, there probably aren't enough fans to buy the whole club and there would doubtless be some investment vehicles that would come in just for the dividends but hopefully that wouldn't cost more than servicing the debt. At the very least the Glazers should sell enough of their stake to pay off the debt and give the fans some representation.
Why would the Glazers pay off the debt with share sales? They have no legal obligation to pay it off. The debt is on the club not them. The likelihood is that the new owners will need to pay off the debt.

Equity (shares etc.) is usually more expensive than debt. Dividends are costly, but without them you are limiting the attractiveness of the shares.

Putting the entire club on the stock market will put the club at the whims of the shareholders who only have financial interests. Those shareholders will end up having the control because they are the ones with the money.
 

McGrathsipan

Dawn’s less famous husband
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
24,581
Location
Dublin
There was a recent piece 5 days ago that the Glazers are open to selling (after the ESL collapse) so I think they will sell, the question is who can afford to pay $4 billion.
Jeff Bezos.
Surely he's bored of online shopping by now
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,350
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Has there ever been a beloved owner in the PL? The Thai owners of Leicester are one that comes to mind but he has the unfair advantage of having died on the grounds of the stadium.
But I think the expectations of Top 4 clubs are different. Otherwise, most owners are disliked at best or hated usually. We would need a multi-multi billionaire United fan buyer at £4Billion. Possibly like only a handful in the world that consist of 500million United fans.

So we are left with Putin, MBS -- white washers, and/or Xi Jin-Ping who apparently is a United fan.
If an owner is perceived as a white knight they could be popular. Buying a bankrupt club, or restoring a sleeping giant. There’s an obvious upside for new owners in those scenarios, financially and in terms of reputation.

None of this applies at United and you can see why the visceral hatred of the Glazers would be extremely off putting to potential new owners, considering how expensive/difficult it would be for them to a) buy the club and b) bring more success on the pitch.
 

Spoony

The People's President
Joined
Oct 27, 2001
Messages
63,107
Location
eerF Palestine.
Best? Make the owners feel uneasy, I guess. But as has been said before it can't stop... protests have to continue. Smacks of desperation but let's be honest the owners have all the power.
 

Banana Republic

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
1,272
What some don’t appear to understand or appreciate, is that even the richest multi billionaires, like Jeff Bezos, don’t actually have vast amounts of money just lying in a bank account, or stashed under the bed.
Taking Bezos as an example. It’s estimated his net worth is somewhere around $195 billion to $200 billion, but most of that is the value of his ownership of Amazon and other assets and investments. He doesn’t have $200 billion in the bank or cash to spend.

According to sources like Forbes etc, the average multi-billionaire only has around 1% of their net value in liquidity, in other words, cash in hand.
In the example of Bezos, that might only be a couple of $ billion tops ( note that he only takes a salary of around $84k per year).
To spend £4 billion on a football club would either mean selling off shares or assets to raise the funds, or borrowing the money from the banks or other financial investors, all of who would expect a return on their own investment.

Daniel Ek will be looking to gather investors together, if he intends to buy the Arse.
He won’t be able to do it, by ferreting down the back of the sofa looking for some loose change.

At this sort of level ( £3 to £4 billion), nobody can afford a buyout of Utd purely as a benevolent, or non-profit act, except a state or state backed entity.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,350
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
What some don’t appear to understand or appreciate, is that even the richest multi billionaires, like Jeff Bezos, don’t actually have vast amounts of money just lying in a bank account, or stashed under the bed.
Taking Bezos as an example. It’s estimated his net worth is somewhere around $195 billion to $200 billion, but most of that is the value of his ownership of Amazon and other assets and investments. He doesn’t have $200 billion in the bank or cash to spend.

According to sources like Forbes etc, the average multi-billionaire only has around 1% of their net value in liquidity, in other words, cash in hand.
In the example of Bezos, that might only be a couple of $ billion tops ( note that he only takes a salary of around $84k per year).
To spend £4 billion on a football club would either mean selling off shares or assets to raise the funds, or borrowing the money from the banks or other financial investors, all of who would expect a return on their own investment.

Daniel Ek will be looking to gather investors together, if he intends to buy the Arse.
He won’t be able to do it, by ferreting down the back of the sofa looking for some loose change.

At this sort of level ( £3 to £4 billion), nobody can afford a buyout of Utd purely as a benevolent, or non-profit act, except a state or state backed entity.
And even state backed entities will look for value. Hence the Saudis went in for Newcastle rather than trying to make the owners of MUFC, Liverpool or Arsenal an offer they couldn’t refuse (which they surely could have afforded to do).

Our historical status as a “big club” doesn’t count for much when you can see how a club that’s always been bang average like City has been so quickly converted into a status symbol for its owners.

So billionaires can’t afford us and gulf states have far cheaper options to be moulded into penis extensions. All of which points towards a full on scorched earth policy to be the only way for us to end up with new owners. A spectacular and prolonged collapse, on and off the pitch, that wipes billions off our value. I wonder how many United fans really have the appetite for all that entails? I also wonder if that’s a gamble worth taking when there’s every chance the hypothetical new owners will be cut from the same cloth as the owners of Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool or the generally despised owners of any other non gulf state backed PL club you can think of (Leicester an honourable exception, helped by VERY low expectations)
 
Last edited:

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
We now appear to be in a conversation whereby we are asking ourselves if there is value in United for a billionaire?!

You lot have answered that already...we have the second highest net spend of any club, yet are still profitable and cash rich.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,545
Location
Somewhere out there
If an owner is perceived as a white knight they could be popular. Buying a bankrupt club, or restoring a sleeping giant. There’s an obvious upside for new owners in those scenarios, financially and in terms of reputation.

None of this applies at United and you can see why the visceral hatred of the Glazers would be extremely off putting to potential new owners, considering how expensive/difficult it would be for them to a) buy the club and b) bring more success on the pitch.
Nice to see some posts where some geniune thought has gone into them.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,545
Location
Somewhere out there
We now appear to be in a conversation whereby we are asking ourselves if there is value in United for a billionaire?!

You lot have answered that already...we have the second highest net spend of any club, yet are still profitable and cash rich.
Yet we win very little despite that spend, we’re competing with one, and possibly soon two gulf states. And the fans utterly detest the owners.

For a 4 billion purchase, it’s very little to be excited about and there are many many better ways to make much more money.
 

Mickeza

still gets no respect
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
13,978
Location
Deepthroating information to Howard Nurse.
It could also force the Glazers to start making decisions in the best interest of the club.

I would settle for the following commitments:
  • No more dividends taken out until the debt is cleared.
  • A written promise never to engage in talks about another breakaway league.
  • A 5 year plan for development and renovation of the stadium and facilities.
  • A CEO with a football first background to replace Woodward.
  • A written promise never to sell the club to the Saudis (or another such prehistoric and murderous regime).
Those 5 commitments would be enough for me to give the Glazers more time to rebuild their ownership of the club.
Agree with all except the CEO bit. We need to make money from sponsorships etc to compete with City. I’d go further in terms of dividends though and ask for percentage of shares to be sold to fan groups with the money invested in paying off the debt. The best case scenario for me is legislative reform and the glazers coming to the negotiating table.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
Yet we win very little despite that spend, we’re competing with one, and possibly soon two gulf states. And the fans utterly detest the owners.

For a 4 billion purchase, it’s very little to be excited about and there are many many better ways to make much more money.
So the biggest, high profile football club in the world isn't something to get excited about?

I would like to know a better way of making money than buying a extremely profitable self sufficient club.

Winning trophies comes from having a good setup from top to bottom, something the Glazers have failed to do throughout their tenure.