McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams

[Desert Eagle]

Fred should not be tarred with the same brush as McTominay. Fred may have his shortcomings, but his contributions to our midfield far outweigh McTominay's. I struggle to see what the Scott actually offers. Doesn't contribute a great deal in progressing the ball up the pitch and constantly seems to shy away from being an option for our defence when they have the ball. He's not good enough with the ball at his feet to be a starter for us.

Agreed. Fred has been very solid for most of the season. Mctominay has had flashes but is consistently a 5 or 6 out of ten for me most games. I've said it before but he is our most easily improved member of the starting 11.

 

[tjb]

The truth is its a bad partnership that is the best one we have available. Matic is literally our only other option now that we realise Pogba just doesn't have it defensively. Our lack of creativity at time is due to them not moving the ball quickly enough high up the pitch. In the games where the opposition parks the bus, the lack of intricacy and willingness to hold on to the ball from either, forces Maguire to try to dictate from deep ( which is a lot harder to do).

 

[Litch]

Agreed. Fred has been very solid for most of the season. Mctominay has had flashes but is consistently a 5 or 6 out of ten for me most games. I've said it before but he is our most easily improved member of the starting 11.

Agree. Any player on here that's not liked, they always focus on what they can't do and not what they can. Fred has his moments but it's way over the top the criticism of him. If we are to win the league, we may need better than Fred but we'll also need improvement and consistency in the other players inc the manager. The home losses are not solely down to the midfield.

 

[Litch]

The truth is its a bad partnership that is the best one we have available. Matic is literally our only other option now that we realise Pogba just doesn't have it defensively. Our lack of creativity at time is due to them not moving the ball quickly enough high up the pitch. In the games where the opposition parks the bus, the lack of intricacy and willingness to hold on to the ball from either, forces Maguire to try to dictate from deep ( which is a lot harder to do).

How do you get to 2nd and a European final with a bad partnership that's played the majority of the games? What you are describing is not their inability- that doesn't make them bad cause you are just offering a different measure of 'good'. If I looked at that Liverpool midfield, who would have thought it would be PL and CL winners? If I looked at the Leicester defence, who'd have thought it would have won the league. Even is I looked at the City side, they have had better teams that didn't make CL final.

It's too simplistic view that it's all about Scott and Fred, and we will need to see a more consistent Pogs, Rashford, Martial and even Ole to challenge for the title.....

 

[tjb]

How do you get to 2nd and a European final with a bad partnership that's played the majority of the games? What you are describing is not their inability- that doesn't make them bad cause you are just offering a different measure of 'good'. If I looked at that Liverpool midfield, who would have thought it would be PL and CL winners? If I looked at the Leicester defence, who'd have thought it would have won the league. Even is I looked at the City side, they have had better teams that didn't make CL final.

It's too simplistic view that it's all about Scott and Fred, and we will need to see a more consistent Pogs, Rashford, Martial and even Ole to challenge for the title.....

How? Well we got there in spite of the partnership. My case is this, if we had a better partnership ( Fred + a new midfielder) we would be able to compete for the UCL and would potentially be closer to City, maybe even ahead of them. The rest of the team has been that consistent, even the defence despite Lindelof. Harry Maguire has been one of the best centre backs in the world for the past two seasons with a brief blip at the start of the season ( for obvious reasons). Shaw has been phenomenal. AWB has been consistent.

 

[Halftrack]

Harry Maguire has been one of the best centre backs in the world for the past two seasons

Harry's been good and solid for us, but this isn't even close to true.

 

[tjb]

Harry's been good and solid for us, but this isn't even close to true.

In Europe this season, I can only think of Dias and Marquinhos who have been better and more consistent. VVD and Sergio Ramos have been injured.

 

[Ali Dia]

League and CL winning teams have better starting midfield pairings.

I’ve already told you that I think we need at least one attacking player to improve further. You’re arguing with yourself here.

Gini and Henderson offer about the same on and off the ball and they’ve won it all. They've also dropped off considerably since. A conservative but flexible midfield let’s the fulls backs constantly attack.

Why do you think Cavani is doing so well? He’s easily caught up with Rashfords numbers in 10 less games. Why do you think that is? The lads can find him for fun but struggle with finding each other periodically. It’s not a coincidence. We were seriously lacking in quality up there that’s why and we still are. We need a creative wide player and a younger striker and then get back to me on the midfield. Worst midfield in the top 10? Mental.

How? Well we got there in spite of the partnership. My case is this, if we had a better partnership ( Fred + a new midfielder) we would be able to compete for the UCL and would potentially be closer to City, maybe even ahead of them. The rest of the team has been that consistent, even the defence despite Lindelof. Harry Maguire has been one of the best centre backs in the world for the past two seasons with a brief blip at the start of the season ( for obvious reasons). Shaw has been phenomenal. AWB has been consistent.

You genuinely think our forwards have been CL final/PL winning consistent/level this season and it’s the midfield that’s been letting them down all along? Just get rice and we’d score 15 more goals. It’s pie in the sky

 

[city-puma]

Pathetic thread!

 

[tjb]

Gini and Henderson offer about the same on and off the ball and they’ve won it all. They've also dropped off considerably since. A conservative but flexible midfield let’s the fulls backs constantly attack.

Why do you think Cavani is doing so well? He’s easily caught up with Rashfords numbers in 10 less games. Why do you think that is? The lads can find him for fun but struggle with finding each other periodically. It’s not a coincidence. We were seriously lacking in quality up there that’s why and we still are. We need a creative wide player and a younger striker and then get back to me on the midfield. Worst midfield in the top 10? Mental.


You genuinely think our forwards have been CL final/PL winning consistent this season and it’s the midfield that’s been letting them down all along?

Here's what I'll say. The current set up in attack as it is, with a better midfield would be able to challenge. However, at the start of the season, we didn't have that balance either. Bruno had to craft all the chances we had by himself because an attack consisting of Martial, Rashford and Greenwood/James creates absolutely nothing which meant that we would need to rely more on a more creative midfield to create chances, which we didn't have. Also remember that Pogba was injured alot in the first half of the season, plus in the double pivot he was weak defensively.

If we go into next season with the current set up in attack and defence ( in spite of Lindelof) but with a good midfielder playing alongside Fred, we'll do much better than we did this season with just that.

 

[Ali Dia]

Pathetic thread!

100%

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Bet you were one of the plonkers who thought lingard was championship quality too.

Fred good again today.

You can settle for a mediocre midfielder if you want.

Lingard isn't championship quality but he's also not good enough for utd

 

[Welbeckham]

Far from it. They haven’t exactly been in form of late but our opponents rarely dominate us with them playing. They are probably not the best midfield two in PL top 10, but they are far from the worst.

 

[Abraxas]

How? Well we got there in spite of the partnership. My case is this, if we had a better partnership ( Fred + a new midfielder) we would be able to compete for the UCL and would potentially be closer to City, maybe even ahead of them. The rest of the team has been that consistent, even the defence despite Lindelof. Harry Maguire has been one of the best centre backs in the world for the past two seasons with a brief blip at the start of the season ( for obvious reasons). Shaw has been phenomenal. AWB has been consistent.

This sounds a bit too simplistic. We are not 10 points off City and falling out of the group stage because of one central midfield player. Especially one that is not exactly a league 2 player, we are talking about a good footballer. Or approached from the other perspective, does a shiny new midfielder mean that our forwards finish all their chances or that we do not make costly mistakes defensively or in terms of approach? Your new central midfield signing must have broad shoulders!

There are numerous positions that we should be looking to improve that may get us closer, that is about all that can be reasonably said.

 

[Ali Dia]

This sounds a bit too simplistic. We are not 10 points off City and falling out of the group stage because of one central midfield player. Especially one that is not exactly a league 2 player, we are talking about a good footballer. Or approached from the other perspective, does a shiny new midfielder mean that our forwards finish all their chances or that we do not make costly mistakes defensively or in terms of approach? Your new central midfield signing must have broad shoulders!

There are numerous positions that we should be looking to improve that may get us closer, that is about all that can be reasonably said.

@tjb I agree with this pretty much. It’s almost exactly what I would have written. Our forwards need to sort out their creativity issues amongst themselves as a unit before we go adding anything else behind to “unlock” them or else we are just overcomplicating the basics to cover for their deficiencies. There’s no point adding more layers when they get the fundamentals wrong so often. Do we need a change in personnel in our regular starters? Look at the difference Pogba and Cavani have made recently. Simple pass and move football. Dangerous runs. Pressing desire and ball in behind. It’s what any top class forward line should provide for each other as standard and they are failing to do that too often. A central midfielder isn’t going to change that.

 

[Halftrack]

In Europe this season, I can only think of Dias and Marquinhos who have been better and more consistent. VVD and Sergio Ramos have been injured.

Came in a bit hot on that one. Harry's not a world class CB, but he's a very good and reliable one. Saying he's "not even close" to being one of the best was an a bit of an overstatement on my part. What I meant was that there's a clear gap between him and the likes of Marquinhos or VvD on song.

What I said was a bit like saying Robben wasn't one of the best in the world because Messi and C. Ronaldo existed.

 

[United492]

Haven't read all of this thread and to be honest I won't bother, I get the gist.

For me, I've said it before and I'll say it again, most of our problems come from the lack of movement from the front 3, mainly Rashford, Martial (when fit) and Greenwood (who is still learning). Don't get me wrong, they're all learning from Cavani at the moment, Greenwood seemingly quicker than the rest, however, the point is, McFred aren't fantastic as a duo, but both have different qualities. Fred... he epitomises our team. He can be shite one half and brilliant the next - when the forwards are mobile, he picks passes as he can actually release the ball when the forwards aren't stood still holding hands with the defenders. Mct..... I hate the Pro Evo Soccer categorisation of players so used by Goldbridge, but McT is not a defensive midfielder or a 'CDM', when he bombs forward, with Fred sitting (second half obviously), we're good, he can make things happen around the box, moves it well and has a decent shot on him.

All this nonsense of them being 2 players in one is just that, nonsense. They can be a decent pairing, we just use them in the wrong way, we need to free McT in 1st halves from hereon in.

 

[tjb]

This sounds a bit too simplistic. We are not 10 points off City and falling out of the group stage because of one central midfield player. Especially one that is not exactly a league 2 player, we are talking about a good footballer. Or approached from the other perspective, does a shiny new midfielder mean that our forwards finish all their chances or that we do not make costly mistakes defensively or in terms of approach? Your new central midfield signing must have broad shoulders!

There are numerous positions that we should be looking to improve that may get us closer, that is about all that can be reasonably said.

In a front 6, adding one player can actually do a lot of things. Not because thay player is phenomenal but because (particularly in midfield), he provides enough support to allow other players do their job. For example, would you suggest Cavani was bad to start the season or we simply didn't create enough for him. Since the new year, we only added Pogba, now Cavani is getting the requisite level of chances created to have the opportunity to score more goals. Him having that earlier could have been a difference of 5 or 6 points.

In midfield, we usually spend more time getting the ball in our half than the opposition. The major reason for this is thag our midfielders don't have the technical skills to consistently recieve and release possession quickly enough to surpass opposition presses. As a result we play it slowly, allowing our opponents to sit deep and compact. Even after this, we then face the situation in which we don't have the distribution from deeper area's to get the ball into more attacking zones consistently due to our midfielders lacking the speed of thought and technique to pass or drive through incisive angles. As a result, Maguire becomes our chief distributor from even deeper, slowly trying to break down two blocks from the half way line, because again, our midfielders lack the awareness, technique or passing rang to recieve and make incisive decisions on the ball. That has cost us in the majority of our home games, so yes, it's that simple.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Have we dropped more points with them, or without them? Anyone?

 

[tjb]

Came in a bit hot on that one. Harry's not a world class CB, but he's a very good and reliable one. Saying he's "not even close" to being one of the best was an a bit of an overstatement on my part. What I meant was that there's a clear gap between him and the likes of Marquinhos or VvD on song.

What I said was a bit like saying Robben wasn't one of the best in the world because Messi and C. Ronaldo existed.

You are right, but it's the best us or any other team without that quality of defender can do.

 

[tjb]

Have we dropped more points with them, or without them? Anyone?

I mean, if not them then who? Matic?

That's like arsenal saying they've win more with Xhaka playing. It may be true, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved.

That mentality is what caused our decline imo. Same thing was done for the likes of Herrera.

 

[OrcaFat]

Harry's been good and solid for us, but this isn't even close to true.

A few dodgy moments aside, he’s been one of the best.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I mean, if not them then who? Matic?

That's like arsenal saying they've win more with Xhaka playing. It may be true, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved.

That mentality is what caused our decline imo. Same thing was done for the likes of Herrera.

As a pair I mean.

They’re not bad players. Nor is Matic. Our problem is not working out how to play Bruno, Pogba, and a functional front 3 in the same side for a whole season. If we had got that sorted from the first game, and they stayed fit, we would have won the league.

Fred and McTominay are solid and dependable footballers. Fergie would have treasured them. I freely admit that they’re an uninspiring pair from minute 1. But they should be retained and both play lots of minutes.

 

[OrcaFat]

They’re mainly quite effective and often they are the least bad option.

McT seems to have great potential one minute and to be a liability the next. Possibly he improves over the next year or two.

Fred has a great engine is mobile and gets through a lot of work. Not sure he will improve much more from here.

Playing them both does leave us short on quality in CM but I don’t think they are the least effective pair in the top ten. But I do think CM or DCM is a priority area for strengthening.

 

[Roboc7]

I don’t think they significantly improve more than a couple of teams in top half, don’t significantly weaken more than 2 or 3 either.

They do a job but surely we have to be looking to upgrade at least one as soon as possible.

 

[Ali Dia]

I don’t think they significantly improve more than a couple of teams in top half, don’t significantly weaken more than 2 or 3 either.

They do a job but surely we have to be looking to upgrade at least one as soon as possible.

What if we swapped Rashford and Greenwood for Kane and Son or Salah and Jota or the Chelsea lads? It would probably be an instant upgrade but you don’t see threads saying we have the worst attackers in the top 6 do you? This is easily the worst thread on here and makes total scapegoats of the wrong group of players in our squad. Its your forwards chemistry that sets you apart in the games where teams park the bus and we’ve huffed and puffed and struggled to create in too many of the easier games this season. That’s the main problem with this squad currently. Too many wide forwards doing the same thing as each other.

 

[Roboc7]

What if we swapped Rashford and Greenwood for Kane and Son or Salah and Jota or the Chelsea lads? It would probably be an instant upgrade but you don’t see threads saying we have the worst attackers in the top 6 do you? This is easily the worst thread on here and makes total scapegoats of the wrong group of players in our squad. Its your forwards chemistry that sets you apart in the games where teams park the bus and we’ve huffed and puffed and struggled to create in too many of the easier games this season. That’s the main problem with this squad currently. Too many wide forwards doing the same thing as each other.

It’s unfair to label them worst in top half but it’s a no brainer to watch Mcfred and think can’t improve on at least one relatively easily.

I also think having two midfielders, neither of who are very creative or particularly good passers has played a part in those games as well.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I bet our win rate with them starting is very high.

 

[Red Shorts]

What if we swapped Rashford and Greenwood for Kane and Son or Salah and Jota or the Chelsea lads? It would probably be an instant upgrade but you don’t see threads saying we have the worst attackers in the top 6 do you? This is easily the worst thread on here and makes total scapegoats of the wrong group of players in our squad. Its your forwards chemistry that sets you apart in the games where teams park the bus and we’ve huffed and puffed and struggled to create in too many of the easier games this season. That’s the main problem with this squad currently. Too many wide forwards doing the same thing as each other.

0
I've read a lot of your posts and understand the defence; personally I love both individually, and they have traits that show true heart for the club.

But what I would like you to answer is: do you truly think as a midfield duo, we could win the league in the next 2/3 seasons with them in the centre? Forget about the up front conundrum you keep mentioning.. the CMs make things tick from back to front, much like Scholes, Carrick and Keane etc. Did for 20 year between them. Do you believe that they are a top 3 pairing in the league?

And before you Insult me much like you have other posters, this is an open, neutral question I would be interested in understanding your opinion

 

[jesperjaap]

The truth is its a bad partnership that is the best one we have available. Matic is literally our only other option now that we realise Pogba just doesn't have it defensively. Our lack of creativity at time is due to them not moving the ball quickly enough high up the pitch. In the games where the opposition parks the bus, the lack of intricacy and willingness to hold on to the ball from either, forces Maguire to try to dictate from deep ( which is a lot harder to do).

"Bad" is maybe a bit harsh, but I would pretty much agree with that. I think they are good at chasing and breaking up play in some of the big games that we are the under dog in, we have seen that against PSG, City and even Liverpool at times. But over a season when we are the majority of the time the side that are favourites, they are lacking if we are to kick on to the next level for me, as starters at least anyway

 

[jesperjaap]

How do you get to 2nd and a European final with a bad partnership that's played the majority of the games? What you are describing is not their inability- that doesn't make them bad cause you are just offering a different measure of 'good'. If I looked at that Liverpool midfield, who would have thought it would be PL and CL winners? If I looked at the Leicester defence, who'd have thought it would have won the league. Even is I looked at the City side, they have had better teams that didn't make CL final.

It's too simplistic view that it's all about Scott and Fred, and we will need to see a more consistent Pogs, Rashford, Martial and even Ole to challenge for the title.....

Despite the great run of results, I do think individual consistency of performance has been a problem from several players for a while now...probably our biggest problem for the last 3 years or so. Would also agree individually, the Liverpool midfield are not that special, it was the team work and consistent form also indivdually they out in for a good 18months or so with the addition of a couple of players made a big difference.

BUT, I still agree with the post you are answering. We have a few problems in our side in defence, midfield and even attack. But for me that double pivot really is a weak spot and neither of those players do I see in a title winning side week in week out as starters, individually or as a partnership. Its great we have got to a European final, but we havent even played a top side in the tournament, Arsenal are an absolute shambles this season and reached the semis lets not forget.

Even if you do like the partnership, what back up is there behind it. Matic will be another year older, Pogba has been dreadfully inconsistent and at time shoddy in the wrong areas playing there, VDB hasnt played full stop and Garner is probably the next option. Along with a centre back, for me the pivot is the area we most need to be lookign at improving the first eleven in and certainly giving us more options

 

[Falcow]

Gini and Henderson offer about the same on and off the ball and they’ve won it all. They've also dropped off considerably since. A conservative but flexible midfield let’s the fulls backs constantly attack.

Why do you think Cavani is doing so well? He’s easily caught up with Rashfords numbers in 10 less games. Why do you think that is? The lads can find him for fun but struggle with finding each other periodically. It’s not a coincidence. We were seriously lacking in quality up there that’s why and we still are. We need a creative wide player and a younger striker and then get back to me on the midfield. Worst midfield in the top 10? Mental.


You genuinely think our forwards have been CL final/PL winning consistent/level this season and it’s the midfield that’s been letting them down all along? Just get rice and we’d score 15 more goals. It’s pie in the sky

Couldnt agree more with this. I keep saying if we had Kane we would have the league wrapped up by now. Midfield are far from the worst area.

 

[Ali Dia]

0
I've read a lot of your posts and understand the defence; personally I love both individually, and they have traits that show true heart for the club.

But what I would like you to answer is: do you truly think as a midfield duo, we could win the league in the next 2/3 seasons with them in the centre? Forget about the up front conundrum you keep mentioning.. the CMs make things tick from back to front, much like Scholes, Carrick and Keane etc. Did for 20 year between them. Do you believe that they are a top 3 pairing in the league?

And before you Insult me much like you have other posters, this is an open, neutral question I would be interested in understanding your opinion

Hey how’s it going? I wasnt trying to be insulting earlier and it’s not my usual speed at all but I was told to grow a pair by someone who thinks this thread is actually worthwhile and I snapped back. I don’t think there’s a huge problem with Fred and McT being the base of a winning team if our forwards improve a lot as a unit. If Gini and Henderson can do it then Fred and McT can too. The main difference is their forwards were in world class form when they were winning I don’t get how fans can’t see the difference. Our forwards turning their domination of the ball into goals is what we really needed in the tighter games where we dropped points this season. Cavani has already decided how many tight games for us since he got fit? Same with Pogba on the left. Creativity, aggression, taking up the right positions and doing the simple things well is what our forwards have clearly been missing for most of this season.

What I would currently improve on with our setup in the middle is moving Matic on for someone who can do as good of a job going both ways that can rotate with Fred and McT or else just replace him with a DM and finally give that system a shot. Our biggest weakness in midfield is overplaying the same 2 players that run and press the most in every game. They are the only 2 proper box to box players we have in a system that totally relies on box to box players.. Fred has sent Rashford through one on one about 10 times this season, he’s actually pretty creative for such an industrious player. McT has scored a nice few goals. Creatively they are doing fine. The defence is doing fine.

Put a dm in this lineup with Pogba on the left and Bruno on the right and any team with any bit of steel or skill at all will cut right through us. Rice also has much less creative play than either player we currently play in there and worse attacking numbers but he’s still somehow the answer to unlocking the forwards potential? It’s a real 2+2=5 as far as I’m concerned. The forwards need to figure out how to do the basics for each other before we go changing system to get a dm in to supposedly balance the team. Balance the forwards properly and get some rotation in midfield and we are set.

 

[tjb]

"Bad" is maybe a bit harsh, but I would pretty much agree with that. I think they are good at chasing and breaking up play in some of the big games that we are the under dog in, we have seen that against PSG, City and even Liverpool at times. But over a season when we are the majority of the time the side that are favourites, they are lacking if we are to kick on to the next level for me, as starters at least anyway

To add to that, we don't really want to play that way in those games. We need to start getting dominant wins against the Arsenals and Spurs, for me, that the tell tale sign of a team that is operating at the highest gear. You can't do that when our midfield loses the midfield battle to them due to those teams having superior technical ability in that area.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Vanilla CM

 

[rhajdu]

It seems this is the place today to be negative instead of the Ole's thread right now. Fred and McTominay is far from the worst midfield 2 of the PL's top 10 teams. I am not even sure if they are the worst midfield 2 of the PL's top 4 teams. They play an important part in our tactic which allow us to demolish teams in the 2nd halfs. However, I agree that it would be really nice to sign a DM (for example Rice), because then the team would evolve into something else. I believe that it is possible to appreciate our players and see the improvement opportunities at the same time.

 

[kettledrumhamster]

Fred was great today, really good. McT not so much

 

[rhajdu]

To add to that, we don't really want to play that way in those games. We need to start getting dominant wins against the Arsenals and Spurs, for me, that the tell tale sign of a team that is operating at the highest gear. You can't do that when our midfield loses the midfield battle to them due to those teams having superior technical ability in that area.

It was actually just a month ago that we defeated Spurs. Fred scored the equalizer and we also had more possession than them. Our midfield 2 is not as bad as you would think based on this thread.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

They would get more appreciated if people rated them by their effectiveness in our tactic and not just technical ability. Fred in particular. I think Mctominay should be on the bench or be getting Matic minutes

 

[Skills]

I hate that they're both being coupled together. Fred's miles better than McTominay