Pogba is not a left winger

Silas

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*has his first poor game since returning from injury*
Exactly. :lol:

I think people in this thread are just annoyed about Rashford being on the right and have been waiting for Pogba to have a poor game for vindication. On form, it should be Pogba-Bruno-Greenwood anyway, to be honest.
 

UpWithRivers

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He plays in a 3 man midfield with the lenience to go forward/drift around. Has always done when at his best - Juve/France etc. But oh no we cant do that at United. We just shove him in a 2 man midfield or on the left half the time. Yesterday his main job was tracking TAA. He is a top player so he can fit other positions but if we want to give him the platform to succeed then we need a functioning midfield i.e. 2 decent midfielders next to him.
 

tomaldinho1

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Today's issue wasn't Pogba or Bruno or Cavani or Rashford. Our defense couldn't bring the ball up. Ole should have identified this and changed the tactics at half time. If you don't have the ball, there is nothing these guys can do.
It's a team game. We regularly have this issue versus 'good' teams where our defensive unit seems completely unattached to our forwards - it's like a mish-mash of styles because we're trying to play out from the back (I assume to invite the press) but then there's no option but long balls or a risky dribble. We tried that long ball over to Rashford about 10 times last night, it's just too basic. Liverpool were playing with two very average CBs and we offered Cavani next to no service whatsoever - xG over a full season just confirms how poor we are at consistently creating real chances.

Football is always changing and I think the future of the game in the near term is going to be these mobile, super fit teams who play like Chelsea and City (structured defence, possession focused and well coached at pressing) without a traditional central striker where the style works in both PL and CL. Even Liverpool were moving towards more of a possession based game and I think that's the reason Klopp bought Thiago, as bad as he's been, and also Jota for the central role because they became really reliant on direct long balls at one point & TAA bailing them out with worldy crosses. United need some kind of tactical change because we actually have decent players, sure we need an RW and I'd love a DM but a top DM is pointless if we keep this same setup - it won't magically change the fact there isn't enough movement for us to pay out from the back against any half decent pressing teams.
 

He'sRaldo

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He plays in a 3 man midfield with the lenience to go forward/drift around. Has always done when at his best - Juve/France etc. But oh no we cant do that at United. We just shove him in a 2 man midfield or on the left half the time. Yesterday his main job was tracking TAA. He is a top player so he can fit other positions but if we want to give him the platform to succeed then we need a functioning midfield i.e. 2 decent midfielders next to him.
It's so obvious isn't it.

I remember when Modric and Kroos played in a double pivot with each other, they were seen as nowhere as good as they are now. Zidane came in and stuck Casemiro between them, and voila, world class midfield, 3 CL's in a row, Balon D'or etc.

Sometimes it really is as simple as it seems, but our managers love to make it as though it's rocket science.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I have serious doubts over DM plus Pogba being the answer. It sounds nice on power but I don't think Pogba is really a proper CM and it'll show even then. Well still lack someone to pull the strings as we all though a DM would allow Pogba to do so. Really like him as a player but I feel this theory /plan overrated his midfield qualifies.
 

He'sRaldo

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I have serious doubts over DM plus Pogba being the answer. It sounds nice on power but I don't think Pogba is really a proper CM and it'll show even then. Well still lack someone to pull the strings as we all though a DM would allow Pogba to do so. Really like him as a player but I feel this theory /plan overrated his midfield qualifies.
Pogs specifically has proven it everywhere else but here that he can win trophies in that setup.

And take a look at the quality of DM's we've had during his tenure: Fellaini, Herrera, Matic, Fred, McTominay, and most of the time it's him + 1 of them in a 2 man midfield, so probably being overrun. I don't see why we'd be confident we've given him the tools to succeed and he simply can't do it.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Pogs specifically has proven it everywhere else but here that he can win trophies in that setup.

And take a look at the quality of DM's we've had during his tenure: Fellaini, Herrera, Matic, Fred, McTominay (most of the time in a 2 man midfield so probably being overrun anyway). I don't see why we'd be confident we've given him the tools to succeed and he simply can't do it.
Which set up with one DM has he managed it?
 
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Which set up with one DM has he managed it?
What do you think he was doing at Juve? People have this mythical idea at Juve he was a 10 of sorts
with no defensive responsibility. At Juve he played in a diamond in which he helped do most of the defending and ball winning for the 6 who was Pirlo.


He even won the world cup alongside Kante.
 

R77

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He's great out left in some games. He's also great in CM in some games. Other times his weaknesses are glaringly exposed and he's not great, no matter where he is. Last night is a funny game to use given the circumstances, but the issue is less where to play him, but his status. He, his agent and many fans see him as some GOAT level legendary worldie. He's not.
 

RuudTom83

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Pogba is NOT a left winger until the next time he puts in a MOTM performance at left wing then he WILL be a left winger until the next match at least...

I think i've got it!
 

He'sRaldo

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Or, buddy. In one game how do we get two players to fill in and still play Bruno?
It is doable. In Juve, Vidal would be the Bruno equivalent, and Allegri simply played a diamond midfield to fit them all in and it worked a treat.

In any case my main point is that Pogba can operate with a quality midfield setup, and he has to good effect. He's quality so he can play on the left wing as well, but that's simply his general area as opposed to his primary position which is LCM.
 

amolbhatia50k

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It is doable. In Juve, Vidal would be the Bruno equivalent, and Allegri simply played a diamond midfield to fit them all in and it worked a treat.

In any case my main point is that Pogba can operate with a quality midfield setup, and he has to good effect. He's quality so he can play on the left wing as well, but that's simply his general area as opposed to his primary position which is LCM.
Vidal was 10 times Bruno as a defender though. We aren't going to play a diamond as Pogba isn't good enough to change things completely when Martial, probably Sancho and Rahsford all suit a formation with width.

I understand we want to make Pogba work but the team is more important. He isn't a Messi you change everything for.
 

He'sRaldo

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Vidal was 10 times Bruno as a defender though. We aren't going to play a diamond as Pogba isn't good enough to change things completely when Martial, probably Sancho and Rahsford all suit a formation with width.

I understand we want to make Pogba work but the team is more important. He isn't a Messi you change everything for.
Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood are better as narrow strikers (like in a 4-3-3) rather than wingers in a 4-2-3-1. And in any case it doesn't have to be exactly like for like. The most important thing is to be creative with your options to bring out the best in the team you have, and especially your best players.

Playing a midfield 2 with Lingard/Pereira in front of Pogba at who is at DM is the opposite of that. Leaving Greenwood on the bench, to play Rashford on the right, to play Pogba on the left, all so that Fred and Scott can play in midfield, all to fit a 4-2-3-1 formation, is also not on the mark. However, playing Pogba on the left as opposed to a double pivot with 1 other mediocre DM is a lot closer to getting the best out of the team, and we saw the effects of that recently.

My point is that we can definitely do better than what we've done so far. I'm sure we agree that 2nd in the league and a Europa final isn't something so magnificent that we can't try other formations and setups other than the 4-2-3-1.
 

mav_9me

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I agree we should be playing Rashford left and Greenwood. Pogba should be playing in midfield. We need to start taking games to teams.
The obvious question is where in midfield. Can't be in place of Bruno as Bruno is better. Then in a middle two? He leaves us so exposed when he plays in the middle....for us to take games to teams we need to control the game. Pogba in the middle makes us so weak defensively we always lose control.

Unfortunately it's becoming clearer that we don't have a place for him.
 

acnumber9

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The obvious question is where in midfield. Can't be in place of Bruno as Bruno is better. Then in a middle two? He leaves us so exposed when he plays in the middle....for us to take games to teams we need to control the game. Pogba in the middle makes us so weak defensively we always lose control.

Unfortunately it's becoming clearer that we don't have a place for him.
We don’t have control in midfield though. We instantly starting looking like a football team again when Fred came off and Pogba moved into the middle.
 

Craig Ward

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He's not a #10. He's not a LW. He's not a CM. And he's not LAM (at least not in a top league).

I think he's the sort of player who'd be a world class free-role maverick in the 1990s. But it's way more tricky to find him a proper position in a team in the 2020s.

Maybe if you built the entire team around him (which Jose did seem to try for a while tbf) it would work. But the back-and-forth in the thread shows how difficult it is to pin down what he actually does.

I think the bottom line is that he needs to change. Because we've spent 4 years trying and failing to change for him.
Nailed it.

We've dedicated so much time and effort and still we're in a bit of limbo with Pogba.

He's not good enough for the DM double pivot and while he does shine occasionally from LW - he's not a forward. It's also moving Rashford from his best position. For the sake of the team Pogba needs to be benched and used LW when we are coasting/dominating or playing #10 when Bruno is resting.

He could slot in to DM for the odd game - but he is atrocious defensively there so we will likely be on the back foot/additional pressure when he doesn't track runners etc.

Amazingly Rashfords getting a lot of the hate when it's Pogba causing the team to be unbalanced (again)
 

Craig Ward

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We don’t have control in midfield though. We instantly starting looking like a football team again when Fred came off and Pogba moved into the middle.
We didnt though did we? lets be honest.

Why our fans cant see that pogba is a liability in the central midfield area is beyond me.
 

He'sRaldo

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We've dedicated so much time and effort and still we're in a bit of limbo with Pogba.
Since Pogba came in five seasons ago, we've bought exactly 2 DM's: Matic and Fred (and even Fred being a DM is arguable). Matic was already finished when we got him, and we all know how Fred is.

In my view, we simply splurged on the player without much thought to anything. I don't think we've dedicated as much into making it work as you imply.
 

acnumber9

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We didnt though did we? lets be honest.

Why our fans cant see that pogba is a liability in the central midfield area is beyond me.
We did though. Or at least we looked like a team that could create chances. By virtue of the fact we scored within minutes and almost scored again not long after that. Prior to the change we couldn’t get out of our half because our midfield was camped on top of our back four offering no viable out ball.
 

Craig Ward

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Since Pogba came in five seasons ago, we've bought exactly 2 DM's: Matic and Fred (and even Fred being a DM is arguable). Matic was already finished when we got him, and we all know how Fred is.

In my view, we simply splurged on the player without much thought to anything. I don't think we've dedicated as much into making it work as you imply.
We spent big on him so he could dominate our midfield and dictate play for us.

5 seasons on he cant be trusted to play DM and has to play LW. Sums his utd career up - all hype no substance.

I really felt for Matic when he was Pogba's partner in DM - it was painful to watch how little Pogba contributed defensively and left him to it. Painful.

We need to get rid of him at all costs
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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He's played his best when surrounded by two defensive mids/workhorses - Kante and Matuidi, Pirlo and Vidal, Matic and Herrera, Mctominay and Fred. Its quite obvious at this point his best game is when he's given freedom which is only possible when he has at least 2 midfielders protecting him. So pairing Pogba with a DM is not enough unless we sacrifice LW or AM or RW for a workhorse or defensive astute player
 

Craig Ward

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We did though. Or at least we looked like a team that could create chances. By virtue of the fact we scored within minutes and almost scored again not long after that. Prior to the change we couldn’t get out of our half because our midfield was camped on top of our back four offering no viable out ball.
Jesus - such a warped view of what actually happened. We were abysmal for the whole game, we dont magically turn into a world beating team jst because pogba managed to pass the ball once or twice.

I assure you, there will be more neagtives than positives if we analyze pogba's game!
 

gerdm07

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As I’ve said somewhere else if we need to play him then play him on the RIGHT!

If not then put him on the bench.

Rashford is just better than him on the left, it’s not even an argument.

He is a player that is a great footballer whose obviously best in a 4-3-3 but it imbalances our team.

In all honesty i think I’d be happy with this if Cavani doesn’t play.

———————Pogba———————-
Rashford —Bruno——Greenwood

Actually think he’s be very good as a false nine particularly his hold up play.
Hmmm. That might be worth a try but it won't happen in the next 3 matches.
 

He'sRaldo

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We spent big on him so he could dominate our midfield and dictate play for us.

5 seasons on he cant be trusted to play DM and has to play LW. Sums his utd career up - all hype no substance.

I really felt for Matic when he was Pogba's partner in DM - it was painful to watch how little Pogba contributed defensively and left him to it. Painful.

We need to get rid of him at all costs
Don't get it wrong, he's been one of our top performers this season so I don't agree with any "Pogba liability" talk.

But as for constructing a top level midfield? Given that we play Fred and Scott most weeks, I'll leave it to your judgement as to whether we've done the best we can in that area.
 

JanK

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Okay. To be honest, football is a team sport. In order to succeed, you need to have a team where everyone has the position and chance to play on their strengths. I know that sometimes you need to test something new and experiment in order to find some hidden gems (Pirlo playing deeper, Schweinsteiger too), but if it is known what type of setup brings out the best from the player, then it is mandatory to play on the strengths.

Pogba has been the best in a midfield 3 as a LCM. Play a midfield 3, then. Okay, you cannot because a lack of DM. Buy a DM then. Solved. It seems that the tinkering and testing is meaningless and the only option to bring out the best from our most expensive signing is to rely on setup which has proven to work. Simple.
 

tjb

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Pogs specifically has proven it everywhere else but here that he can win trophies in that setup.

And take a look at the quality of DM's we've had during his tenure: Fellaini, Herrera, Matic, Fred, McTominay, and most of the time it's him + 1 of them in a 2 man midfield, so probably being overrun. I don't see why we'd be confident we've given him the tools to succeed and he simply can't do it.
I really dislike that statement. Italy is a different league with a different set up, but France have and still struggle with him. Even we have had a good month with Pogba. Which other teams has he been on?
 

He'sRaldo

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I really dislike that statement. Italy is a different league with a different set up, but France have and still struggle with him. Even we have had a good month with Pogba. Which other teams has he been on?
He got to 2 CL finals as well in that setup, so it's not just Italy.

2 CL finals, a Euro's final and a World cup (alongside league titles) as a key player in midfield is a pretty decent acumen I'd say.
 

acnumber9

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Jesus - such a warped view of what actually happened. We were abysmal for the whole game, we dont magically turn into a world beating team jst because pogba managed to pass the ball once or twice.

I assure you, there will be more neagtives than positives if we analyze pogba's game!
I never said we turned into a world beating team. When you create an argument with yourself you are both the winner and the loser. What happened was we went from having no defensive protection and no attacking output to at least looking like we could score while still having no defensive protection. We were no worse defensively but much better going forward.
 

tjb

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He got to 2 CL finals as well in that setup, so it's not just Italy.

2 CL finals, a Euro's final and a World cup (alongside league titles) as a key player in midfield is a pretty decent acumen I'd say.
So what? Kleberson won a world cup starting for Brazil.

As for Juve, again. He's not a bad player, so didn't disrupt the team. In 2015, Pogba was not a star man for Juve. He was a part of a well functioning team. In Euro 2016, France were actively trying to figure out how to play him best. He wasn't great in that tournament, both Payet and Griezman were phenomenal. Should I then say us reaching the FA cup final, finishing 2nd twice and winning a Europa league proves Pogba has worked in our systems. A team wins trophies, not a player. Let's not come here and act like Pogba was the force that drove France to a world cup win. He was influencial, but nowhere near the main man. First the defence for France were fantastic throughout. Umtiti and Varane were solid in that tournament. Kante was fantastic bar the final. Mbappe was the most influencial player in my opinion, his pace allowed for the counter attack. Griezman was France's talisman.

Veron also won league titles in Italy, and was more influencial in that Lazio team than Pogba was for Juve. Didn't make him a success here.
 

Lay

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I like him but I find it difficult to pinpoint a position for him. He’s too slow sometimes in advanced positions and not disciplined enough for defensive positions
 

He'sRaldo

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So what? Kleberson won a world cup starting for Brazil.

As for Juve, again. He's not a bad player, so didn't disrupt the team. In 2015, Pogba was not a star man for Juve. He was a part of a well functioning team. In Euro 2016, France were actively trying to figure out how to play him best. He wasn't great in that tournament, both Payet and Griezman were phenomenal. Should I then say us reaching the FA cup final, finishing 2nd twice and winning a Europa league proves Pogba has worked in our systems. A team wins trophies, not a player. Let's not come here and act like Pogba was the force that drove France to a world cup win. He was influencial, but nowhere near the main man. First the defence for France were fantastic throughout. Umtiti and Varane were solid in that tournament. Kante was fantastic bar the final. Mbappe was the most influencial player in my opinion, his pace allowed for the counter attack. Griezman was France's talisman.

Veron also won league titles in Italy, and was more influencial in that Lazio team than Pogba was for Juve. Didn't make him a success here.
I don't disagree with any of that. In fact, your 2nd paragraph pretty much emphasizes the main point.

Juventus had a well functioning team, and thus Pogba was able to play in midfield without his weaknesses being highlighted, all the way to league titles as well as CL finals. Same as France, at first they were unbalanced, but then they put together a much better functioning unit and, together with the talent they had, managed to win the top prize.

Forwards are usually the star men in the team, so expecting that of Pogba is futile (even though he is very influential). However, it's safe to say that with a well functioning unit, there's no reason why Pogba can't play in midfield and be a huge net positive, and that is backed up by his body of work playing in midfield for well functioning teams. He may never get that at Utd, but that's a different matter from it being impossible.
 

Nytram Shakes

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No, he isn't. But he can do a job there and it's a way to get his talent into the team.

The problem with Pogba has always been can you rely on him week in week out in central midfield and the answer is no.

Maybe if we got a world-class defensive midfielder to play beside him, we could get away with playing him in the middle, but unless we do we have to find other ways the leaver him into the team.
 

tjb

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I don't disagree with any of that. In fact, your 2nd paragraph pretty much emphasizes the main point.

Juventus had a well functioning team, and thus Pogba was able to play in midfield without his weaknesses being highlighted, all the way to league titles as well as CL finals. Same as France, at first they were unbalanced, but then they put together a much better functioning unit and, together with the talent they had, managed to win the top prize.

Forwards are usually the star men in the team, so expecting that of Pogba is futile (even though he is very influential). However, it's safe to say that with a well functioning unit, there's no reason why Pogba can't play in midfield and be a huge net positive, and that is backed up by his body of work playing in midfield for well functioning teams. He may never get that at Utd, but that's a different matter from it being impossible.
When you put it like that, I think him on the left is actually the solution. We've now discovered that expecting any significant defensive contribution from Pogba is a mistake. Now we use him at his best, driving forward, looking for passes, making runs, taking shots, without having to be as intricate as an attacking midfielder. Our midfield sucks, but that doesn't mean Pogba is to blame. Its on us to sign midfielders than can allow us to win midfield battles in these big games. If that happens, I'm sure we'll see Cavani, Bruno, Pogba, Greenwood and Rashford take teams apart in these big games.