Our defense looks shaky this season at times and we want to play with one DM while Pogba's defensive contribution is almost zero.
I can't imagine what would happen.
I can't imagine what would happen.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
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No, there isn't a DM in existence that makes that feasible, you still need the #8 to be better defensively and get about the pitch more than Pogba does no matter who your #6 is.
Some people on here want to make him the highest paid player at the club. Baffling.
We’ve won a fair amount of games with Pogba playing there most namely after lockdown last season after we signed Bruno and went on a crazy run to catch Chelsea and Leicester in the top 4.
If it’s not Pogba his point still stands in my opinion, it’s a waste of time to sign a Rice or Ndidi and parter them up with McTominay we need creativity, maybe we start getting VDB same game time.
get a better partner for Maguire.
Yes, I dont get it. He simply hasnt been good enough in the double pivot in several years now consistently. Yet still people are convinced he just needs the right player next to him.
He hasnt had the best of partners lets be honest most of the time but this is an £80m player, an absolutely huge signing. People really need to forget his ability and consider the level of performances warranting an £80m fee we have paid and a new contract that would cost the club about £100m in wages over the period he would sign for....£100m.
I cant remember which journalist wrote it, think it was in the telegraph but he made the point of "does Pogba offer solutions to the club or problems", sums up the divide perfectly. Hasnt been good in central midfield, has been good on the left....but has he been THAT good there even to warrant a £100m contract....of course he hasnt and we do have Rashford, whether or not people think one is better than the other there, I would argue a fee for Pogba and saving on that contract, effectively buys you Harry Kane, or Sancho and Camavinga, or Rice and Romero and Nuno Mendes, or Neto and Kounde and Kamara, a Calvert-Lewin and ROmagnoli and Sulimana and Bissouma.....I simply dont see for all his abilities AND weaknesses what justfies such an outlay that could be spent elsewhere from the Pogba of the last 5years, considering the team we currently have and the players positions we need to improve on when there are so many talented young players about at the moment
Obviously, which means it is a long process to fix. There is no super DM atm to fix it.
I don’t think there is a player in existence who can play as a lone central player with Pogba and Bruno ahead. The balance will be wrong.
Rice could play 6 with an 8 and a 10 but neither Bruno nor Pogba have quite the right attributes to play 8, they are both essentially 10s. I think if we bought Rice he would play with either McT or Fred (neither of whom are quite good enough, of course).
We actually need two new midfielders but, if we have the cash, we should get Rice as one of them.
I genuinely believe Ndidi could be the single DM behind Bruno and Pogba. In bigger games where you need reinforcements you’d replace Pogba with McT for the increased work rate behind Bruno.
But I believe this midfield would dominate 90% of our games.
..........Front Three..........
.....................Bruno........
......Pogba......................
................Ndidi..............
But it went downhill once teams started countering it and we had no solutions.
It will be pretty much how we play now with Pogba starting from double pivot position but less defensive duties with more freedom to go further.
Of course having a good DM would help massively with our defending. But, to turn it around to support attacking, we will need a proactive and dominating CB to come out of the line to clear any threats early and effectively. Otherwise, playing a single DM alone between the line will be suicidal against counter attacks.
Yeah we definitely need two (1 CDM & CM tempo controller) but all signs are if Pogba stays no one is coming in there
I agree. If Pogba stays we’ll get one midfielder at most.
I don’t dislike Pogba and don’t dispute his talent. He must be one of the best players ever who is not a definite starter - he looks good and does some great things but wherever he plays he seems to take something away from the team.
It’s up for debate whether he adds more individually than he takes away from the team balance.
In any case, if Pogba plays 8, I will feel better about that if we have Rice at 6.
I’d like to believe it.
I think 90% is exaggerating. Probably more like 75% - on paper. But once you allow for off games from Pogba and Bruno (and they both have quite a few games where they give it away too much), we’re looking at, what, 60%ish?
I don’t know. The weak link in this idea is not Ndidi. He’d be fine. It’s the other two.
Pogba had a few good games there under Mourinho as well, but it never lasts and can't be trusted against better teams. With Van de Beek I don't think Ole fancies him in general and while I agree Rice would need a more creative midfielder with him I don't think VdB is that player as his passing range isn't good enough and he can't drive the ball out of midfield, it's why I've been saying for ages we need 2 midfielders.
We will play a 4231 next season. It allows our best and most productive player (Bruno) to play in his most effective position (10).
I personally feel Ole wants a ball winner/box to box and a deep-lying playmaker - typically this is what you have in a double pivot. For example:
De Jong and Schone
Kimmich and Goretzka
Kroos and Khedira
Jorginho and Kante
He started with Matic and Pogba because Matic, whilst not having the dynamism of Fred and McTominay, does read the game well. This season; however, he has really seemed to struggle with the pace of the game and it's clear he and Pogba - who Ole wants as his deep-lying playmaker, don't compliment each other.
He now plays Fred and McTominay who are more ball winners than playmakers, therefore, whilst I would love Rice at the club, it would just mean having workmanlike midfielders, as opposed to cultured ones.
Don't get me wrong, that certainly has its perks. More often than not, we look much more solid as a unit when Fred and McTominay are in midfield. It allows our front four and full-backs to get forward, however, we do lack that player who can control the tempo of the game.
Ole did want Pogba to do this and it has worked at times but he's not great defensively and we've seen he's much more effective higher up.
Going forward, we definitely need a Kroos, Verratti, Jorginho, etc type of player in our team. That, with Fred or McTominay next to them would be fine.
I personally feel Ole wants a ball winner/box to box and a deep-lying playmaker - typically this is what you have in a double pivot. For example:
De Jong and Schone
Kimmich and Goretzka
Kroos and Khedira
Jorginho and Kante
He started with Matic and Pogba because Matic, whilst not having the dynamism of Fred and McTominay, does read the game well. This season; however, he has really seemed to struggle with the pace of the game and it's clear he and Pogba - who Ole wants as his deep-lying playmaker, don't compliment each other.
He now plays Fred and McTominay who are more ball winners than playmakers, therefore, whilst I would love Rice at the club, it would just mean having workmanlike midfielders, as opposed to cultured ones.
Don't get me wrong, that certainly has its perks. More often than not, we look much more solid as a unit when Fred and McTominay are in midfield. It allows our front four and full-backs to get forward, however, we do lack that player who can control the tempo of the game.
Ole did want Pogba to do this and it has worked at times but he's not great defensively and we've seen he's much more effective higher up.
Going forward, we definitely need a Kroos, Verratti, Jorginho, etc type of player in our team. That, with Fred or McTominay next to them would be fine.
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Being the main target is one thing. Being a target whose price we're willing to meet is another.
It's not like we don't have form for valuing a player at less than selling club do and for a deal never to materialise for that reason. And given how much West Ham likely want for Declan Rice, this would be a prime candidate for a similar scenario to emerge.
It's not like we don't have form for valuing a player at less than selling club do and for a deal never to materialise for that reason. And given how much West Ham likely want for Declan Rice, this would be a prime candidate for a similar scenario to emerge.
I see Rice staying next year, has a contract to 2024 or 2025 and WH will be playing European football next year. Do not see them selling their best player when they have such a strong hand. This goes double with this Summer being another depressed market.
Hard to see us pulling off Sancho as well as Rice in the same summer. For me the latter doesn't represent value for money at all unless Ole truly believes he can give quality in terms of distribution and passing ability.
I saw Ole using 352, 442, 442 Diamond, 4231 and 433 at United even if he settled for 4231 as the best available for a season.
considering he has had a history of using a 433 at Molde - then I don’t really see what is stopping him using it here, after a pre- season.
A player like Rice if defensively good enough is quite a rare player to be able to find in my opinion- it can really give you that shape to a top class team, the stability to a full throttle team, the player that a deep lying playmaker always needed playing beside or behind him.
considering he has had a history of using a 433 at Molde - then I don’t really see what is stopping him using it here, after a pre- season.
A player like Rice if defensively good enough is quite a rare player to be able to find in my opinion- it can really give you that shape to a top class team, the stability to a full throttle team, the player that a deep lying playmaker always needed playing beside or behind him.
Lingard.
I doubt he's leaving unless if he puts a transfer request. Still on very long term contract means West Ham will demand ridiculous fees like 90m or 100m.
Rumours seem to think we'd have to sell Pogba to get him.
While probably true you can see the issue with that.
We need to be stopping Fred and McTominay playing every week to get to the top level.
Rice should have nothing to do with Pogba.
While probably true you can see the issue with that.
We need to be stopping Fred and McTominay playing every week to get to the top level.
Rice should have nothing to do with Pogba.
We are 2nd with Fred & McTominay and they can still be important together especially against the top teams. We can always play Pogba against the lesser team in midfield with quality ball playing centre back who can defend one on one next to Maguire to ensure more defensive security and Sancho to add creativity in our front four. A new CB, Sancho and plus a backup right back are still great additional and can still give us chance to challenge the league next season.
You can say the same thing about CB mate.
McTominay and Fred partnership is a a major thing holding us back overall as well, regardless of where we are now.
And long term it's not good for the big games either as it means we can never control the games.
As I said they can contribute but being our main pair and playing every week is a problem.
Some people think CB is more important and some think CDM.
I personally think CDM.
But Rice will cost more than a CB this summer, that's the issue.
Rice isn't the only DM in the world. Just one example.
And the CBs we are linked with like Pau Torres will be risks too.
The real feck up is that we wasted last summer leaving us with too much to do yet again.
All I know is the midfield pivot is our biggest flaw overall. Even the depth is poor with how old Matic is.
But this is Rice's thread
Agree. Rice should have nothing to do with Pogba. If we want him, this is the time to get him using Lingard as leverage. Think we should be able to get him for about 60m, with Lingard going other way for around 22m. If they want 70m, we want 32m for Lingard.
We are not giving then 60m and Lingard and that would be the sensible thing
Throw enough shit at the wall....
Yeah my gut feeling is that we will have to settle for that UNLESS like you say Pogba gets sold which looks highly unlikely
I am that fickle that if Varane decides to stay then would definitely switch top priority from CB to CDM
Is Rice genuinely an upgrade to Fred and McTominay? And at least a 70M upgrade?
I wish we were looking to on the continent at options in this position too but does seem it's Rice or nobody
A huge fee plus Jesse probably gets us Rice
How much do you reckon
Well my step son is a season ticket holder at WHU and I asked him the same question. He reckoned they would accept a fee in the region of 70+. Throw in Jesse and I think that comes down to 50-60ish.
Yeah that sounds realistic
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