'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

[Oranges038]

I meant major trophy in the sense that it’s one of the 3 main domestic titles and not the Community Shield or a super cup or any other one game competition. You have to play a number of games to win it. If you want to count only the league and the FA Cup or just the league then PG still has more than both the other managers combined in each case. It’s pretty straightforward really.

It's a pointless trophy, the only reason they win it is because they have the most expensive squad in world football and he can field a second string side that is better than the second string side all the other teams put out.

With the finacial outlay at City he delivers the bare minimum that is expected. Pellegrino did it, Mancini did it and they both got moved on becase City's owners wanted more, they wanted Pep and the CL to be delivered. He's been outdone in every CL campaign by weaker teams, even in the CL final, he was outsmarted by Tuchel and City resorted to long balls and long thows for the last 20 mins. 800m spent and his team resorted to stuff that lads would be bollocked for in a Sunday league game, firing high balls into two small lads in the box.

There you have it, the truth in black and white. And he’s a Madrid fan so you can’t accuse him of bias

No proper Real Madrid fan would be bending over backwards to backup his unwavering love for Pep.

 

[CoopersDream]

I don't think Trent was that good in 2018 and was in and out of the team making 19 league appearances. I doubt Firmino would keep put Kun out under any manager as the difference in quality is too great.

Well, Trent went on to be the be the right back in the Premier League team of the year two years in a row starting from the following season so he was obviously very good already. He played a lot during the second half of the season, and I know I would have him over Sagna in that City side anyway.

As for not keeping Kun out, again it depends what the system is and who you build around. Firmino's role in Liverpool isn't the same as Kun's in City. If it was a typical number 9, Kun is the much much better player obviously. I don't think the Liverpool team of the calender years 2018 and 2019 would have been better with Aguero in for Firmino.

I don't doubt that City added way more players to their squad because Pep spent a billion which supports my initial point! He inherited a side with quality players but an aging "squad." 7 of the inherited players managed 7 out of 11 of the most minutes played in his 2018 100pt league campaign and then added loads more players for lots of money so he underperformed in Europe as I initially pointed out!

I'm not gonna engage in this anymore after this post. But I am gonna repeat this once more: the Liverpool team that knocked City out barely needed a single acqusition outside of the goalkeeper to go on and be dominant a team in the Premier League and winning the Champions League. Even though their league campaign that year wasn't great, in hindsight it's obvious they already were a very, very good side.

You keep on mentioning that a lot of players featured from the previous team in the title winning squad for City in 17/18. Pep isn't going to buy a whole new first team in two summers. But there were a lot of acqusitions that were very important for that team, this is not even debatable.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

No proper Real Madrid fan would be bending over backwards to backup his unwavering love for Pep.

My unwavering love is for taking potshots at weak arguments, which is why I like this thread. It's just too easy. Every page someone comes in and says "I don't know how to add, subtract, or count."

 

[Oranges038]

My unwavering love is for taking potshots at weak arguments, which is why I like this thread. It's just too easy. Every page someone comes in and says "I don't know how to add, subtract, or count."

So you love his numbers and percentages but you don't have a love for Pep?

 

[Daydreamer]

No proper Real Madrid fan would be bending over backwards to backup his unwavering love for Pep.

The Bernabeu gave Ronaldinho a standing ovation for dismantling Real at El Classico.

I’m not sure that mental gymnastics required to underrate a clearly top-draw manager is an indicator of being a true fan. For the most part, I love the tribalism we have in British football. But it prevent us from recognising what’s in front of our eyes at times:

Pep wins nothing in his first season...
“I guess that tippy-tippy nonsense doesn’t work on these shores.”

Pep then wins 3/4 Premier Leagues...
“Of course he did, any manager could do that - only his third Champions League will be considered a success.”

Had he won a single game last weekend, he would have joined Zidane and Ancelotti on three Champions Leagues... and then the goalposts would just shift again.

 

[NasirTimothy]

It's a pointless trophy, the only reason they win it is because they have the most expensive squad in world football and he can field a second string side that is better than the second string side all the other teams put out.

With the finacial outlay at City he delivers the bare minimum that is expected. Pellegrino did it, Mancini did it and they both got moved on becase City's owners wanted more, they wanted Pep and the CL to be delivered. He's been outdone in every CL campaign by weaker teams, even in the CL final, he was outsmarted by Tuchel and City resorted to long balls and long thows for the last 20 mins. 800m spent and his team resorted to stuff that lads would be bollocked for in a Sunday league game, firing high balls into two small lads in the box.



No proper Real Madrid fan would be bending over backwards to backup his unwavering love for Pep.

Again, he delivered 3 league titles in four years, two of which were extremely dominant. Mancini and Pellegrini categorically did not do this. It’s not the same thing, however much you try to claim that it is.

And it’s not about having an unwavering love for Pep, it’s about pointing out facts to salty haters. Real Madrid fans are eminently capable of doing this.

 

[Pickle85]

Again, he delivered 3 league titles in four years, two of which were extremely dominant. Mancini and Pellegrini categorically did not do this. It’s not the same thing, however much you try to claim that it is.

And it’s not about having an unwavering love for Pep, it’s about pointing out facts to salty haters. Real Madrid fans are eminently capable of doing this.

Serious question: are you a Barca fan? Every time I come across you posting it's either knocking Ronaldo or praising Messi/Pep to the rafters. All in an insufferably patronising tone of voice.

Also...'salty haters'?! What are you, eleven years old?

 

[NasirTimothy]

Serious question: are you a Barca fan? Every time I come across you posting it's either knocking Ronaldo or praising Messi/Pep to the rafters. All in an insufferably patronising tone of voice.

Also...'salty haters'?! What are you, eleven years old?

You need to look more carefully at my posts then cos I talk about numerous things. No I’m not a Barca fan and I don’t even think Messi is the GOAT, check the record, I’ve argued with Messi acolytes on here on many occasions. I do think he is a better player than Ronaldo though (I think that much should be evident to anyone who understands the sport and is not Portuguese or a fan of one of his clubs) and I do think that Guardiola is a great coach (again, should be self evident). However he does have major flaws, like any coach. His man management clearly leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Pickle85]

You need to look more carefully at my posts then cos I talk about numerous things. No I’m not a Barca fan and I don’t even think Messi is the GOAT, check the record, I’ve argued with Messi acolytes on here on many occasions. I do think he is a better player than Ronaldo though (I think that much should be evident to anyone who understands the sport and is not Portuguese or a fan of one of his clubs) and I do think that Guardiola is a great coach (again, should be self evident). However he does have major flaws, like any coach. His man management clearly leaves a lot to be desired.

Fair enough. Apologies for the tone in my last, then!

 

[NasirTimothy]

Fair enough. Apologies for the tone in my last, then!

No worries

 

[Oranges038]

Again, he delivered 3 league titles in four years, two of which were extremely dominant. Mancini and Pellegrini categorically did not do this. It’s not the same thing, however much you try to claim that it is.

And it’s not about having an unwavering love for Pep, it’s about pointing out facts to salty haters. Real Madrid fans are eminently capable of doing this.

One Real fan, who admittedly is a person who apparently loves weak arguments and correcting peoples counting so much it's why they love this thread.

I am not being a salty hater, I am looking at his resources and achievements. So, let me be clear here.

I think he is a great coach, there is no doubt about that. But I also think some of his achievements are overstated and I have already explained this.

For example at Bayern he took over the best team in Germany and Europe. And they remained the best team in Germany, he failed in Europe with was a great squad. Other managers before and since won the same trophies as him, 2 were even able to exceed him and win the CL.

At Man City, he took over one of the best and most expensive squads in England. Has spent close to 800m and they are still only the best and most expensive team in England. He has failed in Europe with one of the most expensive squads in world football, in each season being outdone by weaker teams. Other managers before him at City have won the same trophies.

Doesn't matter what style he plays, whether he played the hoofball Klopp did last season at Liverpool or pass the opposition to death and boredom. With the squads of players he has had available, he has still only achieved the bare minimum set of expectations at both teams.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

My unwavering love is for taking potshots at weak arguments, which is why I like this thread. It's just too easy. Every page someone comes in and says "I don't know how to add, subtract, or count."

Peps PR manager right here.

 

[big rons sovereign]

The Bernabeu gave Ronaldinho a standing ovation for dismantling Real at El Classico.

I’m not sure that mental gymnastics required to underrate a clearly top-draw manager is an indicator of being a true fan. For the most part, I love the tribalism we have in British football. But it prevent us from recognising what’s in front of our eyes at times:

Pep wins nothing in his first season...
“I guess that tippy-tippy nonsense doesn’t work on these shores.”

Pep then wins 3/4 Premier Leagues...
“Of course he did, any manager could do that - only his third Champions League will be considered a success.”

Had he won a single game last weekend, he would have joined Zidane and Ancelotti on three Champions Leagues... and then the goalposts would just shift again.

Poor pep, he's so hard done by.

First he had to suffer with being handed arguably the greatest squad in history in a 2 team league.

Then he had the misfortune of being handed yet another world class squad, only this time he had the struggle of a 1 team league.

You'd think his luck would improve, but it seems baldy is cursed as he then finds himself stuck with one of the most expensive squads ever assembled, as well as a bottomless pit of cash.

I feel for the guy, I really do. It must be a nightmare.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

The Bernabeu gave Ronaldinho a standing ovation for dismantling Real at El Classico.

I’m not sure that mental gymnastics required to underrate a clearly top-draw manager is an indicator of being a true fan. For the most part, I love the tribalism we have in British football. But it prevent us from recognising what’s in front of our eyes at times:

Pep wins nothing in his first season...
“I guess that tippy-tippy nonsense doesn’t work on these shores.”

Pep then wins 3/4 Premier Leagues...
“Of course he did, any manager could do that - only his third Champions League will be considered a success.”

Had he won a single game last weekend, he would have joined Zidane and Ancelotti on three Champions Leagues... and then the goalposts would just shift again.

Or

Pep inherits the best squad in the Prem...
Can't win.
With KDB, Aguero, Kompany, Sterling etc.

Then outspends every club and breaks premiership spending records...
Spent close to £800m? His best players are still the core which he inherited. Wins the league with the best squad by a country mile.

 

[NasirTimothy]

One Real fan, who admittedly is a person who apparently loves weak arguments and correcting peoples counting so much it's why they love this thread.

I am not being a salty hater, I am looking at his resources and achievements. So, let me be clear here.

I think he is a great coach, there is no doubt about that. But I also think some of his achievements are overstated and I have already explained this.

For example at Bayern he took over the best team in Germany and Europe. And they remained the best team in Germany, he failed in Europe with was a great squad. Other managers before and since won the same trophies as him, 2 were even able to exceed him and win the CL.

At Man City, he took over one of the best and most expensive squads in England. Has spent close to 800m and they are still only the best and most expensive team in England. He has failed in Europe with one of the most expensive squads in world football, in each season being outdone by weaker teams. Other managers before him at City have won the same trophies.

Doesn't matter what style he plays, whether he played the hoofball Klopp did last season at Liverpool or pass the opposition to death and boredom. With the squads of players he has had available, he has still only achieved the bare minimum set of expectations at both teams.

3 league titles in four years in the (supposedly) toughest competition in the world is not the bare minimum IMO, but I guess that’s where we differ.

After all, he’s not spent that much more than United (the second most profligate team) since he got there and United have zero league titles in that time span.

 

[big rons sovereign]

3 league titles in four years in the (supposedly) toughest competition in the world is not the bare minimum IMO, but I guess that’s where we differ.

After all, he’s not spent that much more than United (the second most profligate team) since he got there and United have zero league titles in that time span.

He's not had to perform major surgery though. That's the big difference, he's just had to make a few additions.
The difference in the state of the two squads in that time is night and day.

 

[redrobed]

I can’t believe he’s still there. City have spent a billion pounds. We spent just £19m in January (and even that on someone who’s barely played) and they still weren’t comfortably ahead of us. If this was the other way round the media would be all over us.

 

[NasirTimothy]

He's not had to perform major surgery though. That's the big difference, he's just had to make a few additions.
The difference in the state of the two squads in that time is night and day.

That’s the fault of the United board then, because they’ve spent more than every other club in Europe (except City) performing this major surgery.

 

[el3mel]

Poor pep, he's so hard done by.

First he had to suffer with being handed arguably the greatest squad in history in a 2 team league.

Then he had the misfortune of being handed yet another world class squad, only this the he had the struggle of a 1 the league.

You'd think his luck would improve, but it seems baldy is cursed as he then finds himself stuck with one of the most expensive squads ever assembled, as well as a bottomless pit of cash.

I feel for the guy, I really do. It must be a nightmare.

I like how this point has been debunked ton of times already but some are still repeating it nonetheless. Just a proof that some things aren't just worthy of a discussion.

 

[big rons sovereign]

I like how this point has been debunked ton of times already but some are still repeating it nonetheless. Just a proof that some things aren't just worthy of a discussion.

He didn't take a world class squad at Bayern? Yeah, they were total shite.

 

[el3mel]

He didn't take a world class squad at Bayern? Yeah, they were total shite.

I meant the Barca point actually. He didn't inherit the greatest squad in history in a 2 teams league and we have replied on this point ton of times already, but some like you are still blindly repeating it anyway because it looks cool.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I like how this point has been debunked ton of times already but some are still repeating it nonetheless. Just a proof that some things aren't just worthy of a discussion.

He also had many premiership winners in the squad when he first arrived at City.

 

[big rons sovereign]

I meant the Barca point actually. He didn't inherit the greatest squad in history in a 2 teams league and we have replied on this point ton of times already, but some like you are still blindly repeating it anyway because it looks cool.

Whatever you say.
Apart from the occasional push from atletico, there's only 2 teams in that league.
As that Barca side not being world class?
Can I have the number of your dealer please, he's got the good shit.

But since yours is clearly the final word on the matter, I guess the subject is closed.

 

[el3mel]

Whatever you say.
Apart from the occasional push from atletico, there's only 2 teams in that league.
As that Barca side not being world class?
Can I have the number of your dealer please, he's got the good shit.

Either you aren't even bothering to check numbers or previous discussions, or you like to just blindly say points that look cool regardless of their truth. We already replied on this like a million times. The Barca team he inherited finished the league 3rd with 67 points and 18 points away from the top, and reached CL semi defeating Celtic and Schalke.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Either you aren't even bothering to check numbers or previous discussions, or you like to just blindly say points that look cool regardless of their truth. We already replied on this like a million times. The Barca team he inherited finished the league 3rd with 67 points and 18 points away from the top, and reached CL semi defeating Celtic and Schalke.

This site needs a wanker emoji.

 

[el3mel]

This site needs a wanker emoji.

A response I predict from someone who is only interested in cool and edgy one liners instead of actually forming a proper argument.

 

[Oranges038]

3 league titles in four years in the (supposedly) toughest competition in the world is not the bare minimum IMO, but I guess that’s where we differ.

After all, he’s not spent that much more than United (the second most profligate team) since he got there and United have zero league titles in that time span.

If you have invested the amount of money they have in him and the team. The bare minimum is to win the league and/or a cup. Which he has done.

City prepared the groundwork for years before he arrived. They know the should win the league nearly every year, the main goal for him there is to win the CL.

 

[Pickle85]

Either you aren't even bothering to check numbers or previous discussions, or you like to just blindly say points that look cool regardless of their truth. We already replied on this like a million times. The Barca team he inherited finished the league 3rd with 67 points and 18 points away from the top, and reached CL semi defeating Celtic and Schalke.

To play devil's advocate, though, that should probably be considered an underachievement. Rijkaard had taken that team as far as he could - they needed fresh ideas and a kick up the backside, as well as fresh personnel. Not saying that Guardiola didn't improve him - of course he did - but just that the side he was left wasn't as bad as that league finish suggests.

 

[el3mel]

To play devil's advocate, though, that should probably be considered an underachievement. Rijkaard had taken that team as far as he could - they needed fresh ideas and a kick up the backside, as well as fresh personnel. Not saying that Guardiola didn't improve him - of course he did - but just that the side he was left wasn't as bad as that league finish suggests.

This is the Barca team who faced us in 2008 semi :

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona_manchester-united/index/spielbericht/90882

And this is their team in CL final next year against us :

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona_manchester-united/index/spielbericht/946099

He shuffled and changed a lot of things regarding the players positions and roles. He didn't just walk in and kept everything as it's, then went on and won 6 trophies.

 

[CoopersDream]

He's not had to perform major surgery though. That's the big difference, he's just had to make a few additions.

He clearly needed to do major surgery of the squad though. If you argue he didn't, then you pretty much say that he took a squad that finished 4th with 66 points (with a few additions) to get 100 points. If that wouldn't prove he is a bloody brilliant coach, then I don't know what would. But the truth is that it needed major surgery, even though there were a group of players in there that were quality and would be very important to the title winning squad as well.

If you have invested the amount of money they have in him and the team. The bare minimum is to win the league and/or a cup. Which he has done.

City prepared the groundwork for years before he arrived. They know the should win the league nearly every year, the main goal for him there is to win the CL.

This is a very simplistic way of looking at it, though. There are a number of teams in the league that should be challenging, that has great coaches and spends a lot - to just assume City should have monopoly on domestic titles is ridiculous, the PL isn't the French league. They didn't win the league nearly every year before he came, they managed two titles in the league, both won on the last day. They were never the clear best team in the league before he came along.

Just for reference, since 2014 City and United has spent roughly the same amount on players (net spend) and both teams has something like one player left from before that period. Yet we sit here saying City has two world class 11s, that anyone would win the league with the second team and United is a team that needs major surgery still. Why is that?

 

[Xaviesta]

Poor pep, he's so hard done by.

First he had to suffer with being handed arguably the greatest squad in history in a 2 team league.

Then he had the misfortune of being handed yet another world class squad, only this time he had the struggle of a 1 team league.

You'd think his luck would improve, but it seems baldy is cursed as he then finds himself stuck with one of the most expensive squads ever assembled, as well as a bottomless pit of cash.

I feel for the guy, I really do. It must be a nightmare.

I bet you wish you took the juicy odds that would have been on offer of Pep winning a treble in his first season at Barcelona then.

 

[Pickle85]

This is the Barca team who faced us in 2008 semi :

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona_manchester-united/index/spielbericht/90882

And this is their team in CL final next year against us :

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona_manchester-united/index/spielbericht/946099

He shuffled and changed a lot of things regarding the players positions and roles. He didn't just walk in and kept everything as it's, then went on and won 6 trophies.

Agreed, but as I said: what I'm saying is that he wasn't exactly picking up a dud squad, was he? Some make out like he was left with an impossible job after Rijkaard and worked miracles which just isn't right.

On an unrelated note, did Yaya really play CB against us in the final?! Did not remember that. That is peak Pep.

 

[Xaviesta]

Agreed, but as I said: what I'm saying is that he wasn't exactly picking up a dud squad, was he? Some make out like he was left with an impossible job after Rijkaard and worked miracles which just isn't right.

On an unrelated note, did Yaya really play CB against us in the final?! Did not remember that. That is peak Pep.

Dani Alves was suspended which saw Puyol play right back so Toure moved to CB.

 

[Oranges038]

He clearly needed to do major surgery of the squad though. If you argue he didn't, then you pretty much say that he took a squad that finished 4th with 66 points (with a few additions) to get 100 points. If that wouldn't prove he is a bloody brilliant coach, then I don't know what would. But the truth is that it needed major surgery, even though there were a group of players in there that were quality and would be very important to the title winning squad as well.


This is a very simplistic way of looking at it, though. There are a number of teams in the league that should be challenging, that has great coaches and spends a lot - to just assume City should have monopoly on domestic titles is ridiculous, the PL isn't the French league. They didn't win the league nearly every year before he came, they managed two titles in the league, both won on the last day. They were never the clear best team in the league before he came along.

Just for reference, since 2014 City and United has spent roughly the same amount on players (net spend) and both teams has something like one player left from before that period. Yet we sit here saying City has two world class 11s, that anyone would win the league with the second team and United is a team that needs major surgery still. Why is that?

Major surgery that has cost about 800m.

16/17 - 190m - pos 3rd.
17/18 - 285 - pos 1st
18/19 - 70m - pos 1st
19/20 - 143m - pos 2nd
20/21 - 152m - pos 1st

It's not a simplistic view all. Any club in any league that spends close to a billion on players and is paying a manager 20m a year is going to expect that investment to pay off.

We all know how the two clubs spent similar amounts of money and has two completely different sets of players. It's obvious to anyone that has watched football for the last 10 years.

 

[kaiser1]

Peps main starting 11 this season

Ederson Walker Stones Diaz Cancelo Rodri Gundogan Kdb Foden Mahrez Silva

He only inherited KdB

 

[fergies coat]

Peps main starting 11 this season

Ederson Walker Stones Diaz Cancelo Rodri Gundogan Kdb Foden Mahrez Silva

He only inherited KdB

How much did he spend on goalkeepers and defender's until he got it right?

 

[kaiser1]

How much did he spend on goalkeepers and defender's until he got it right?

How is this even a point? He spent, others in the league spent
Chelsea Man utd have spent close to him in the same period and have different results

Your team spent close to him but can't say they got it right.

When did he get it right? Was it when they won the league with 100points with 98 points or this season?

 

[CoopersDream]

It's not a simplistic view all. Any club in any league that spends close to a billion on players and is paying a manager 20m a year is going to expect that investment to pay off.

Yes, saying that bare minimum is to win the league and a cup each year is a simplistic way of looking at it because this isn't a one team league where they just can assume to win the league every year by default , and exactly why Pep hasn't been fired when he failed to win the league.

Agreed, but as I said: what I'm saying is that he wasn't exactly picking up a dud squad, was he? Some make out like he was left with an impossible job after Rijkaard and worked miracles which just isn't right.

Obviously he picked up a squad with incredible quality, but he still made an underperforming side with a few key acqusitions (and promoting Busquets) into the most dominant team world football has ever seen. That's pretty impressive by alla accounts.

 

[Oranges038]

The Bernabeu gave Ronaldinho a standing ovation for dismantling Real at El Classico.

I’m not sure that mental gymnastics required to underrate a clearly top-draw manager is an indicator of being a true fan. For the most part, I love the tribalism we have in British football. But it prevent us from recognising what’s in front of our eyes at times:

Pep wins nothing in his first season...
“I guess that tippy-tippy nonsense doesn’t work on these shores.”

Pep then wins 3/4 Premier Leagues...
“Of course he did, any manager could do that - only his third Champions League will be considered a success.”

Had he won a single game last weekend, he would have joined Zidane and Ancelotti on three Champions Leagues... and then the goalposts would just shift again.

Zidane has won the Champions League with Real numerous times, but nobody actually really thinks he is a great coach or that his achievements when put into context of what he was working with were that great.

But he didn't win that game did he?

In fact the most expensive squad in world football with the best paid manager resorted to the old Stoke tactics of long balls and long throws to try and salvage the game.

I'm not saying he's not a great coach, just that his achievements are overstated.

 

[kaiser1]

When you win 3 league titles in 4 season in what is called the most competitive league in the world, will that be overstated? In a league where the top teams can spend heavily and hire the best hands. Yet one coach holds 2 of the 3 highest points haul ever all within 5 seasons