Are English players overrated or is it Southgate ?

PoTMS

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Southgate to let us down at Wembley again 25 years later. Hopefully we sack him once we inevitably get dumped out rather than give him the World Cup to waste more time and talent on. But you just know the FA bigwigs will think you can't sack someone 18 months (!) before a competition and keep him in the job!
 

rimaldo

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Or... Your just nowhere near as good as you think you are?
watching spurs every week may not help but man for man that england squad is vastly superior to what scotland have to offer, regardless of whether they are the second coming of jesus or not. do i think we’re good enough to beat all other contenders to win it? probably not, could we win it with the right kind of draw? probably. is that possible under southgate? no.
 

shahzy

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The question is when HAVEN'T England's player been over rated? That's a lot shorter of a list.

Plus Southgate is manager because no club team wanted him afaik
 

El Jefe

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I’m saying 27 minutes at the end of the game has often not been enough even for the best players ever to play the game to make an impact. Sometimes a shit player like Macheda needs less time, sometimes even 45 minutes aint enough for KdB or Leo Messi.

What is easier is coming on at HT when all players are “cold” after a break, than coming in mid game. But even then, it’s different for every game.

It’s a daft argument. Next time KDB struggles from the bench I’ll quickly claim Chicarito proves he’s overrated.

If Grealish not making an impact in 27 minutes shows he’s overrated “cause KDB” well I’ve about 1000 examples of overrated players, all of them the best to ever play the game.
You seem to be arguing with yourself about a point I've not made.

This thread is asking if English players are overrated. The poster I quoted and I made reference to the way the commentators were fawning over Grealish and talking up his introduction as if he was a multiple Ballon D'or winner. They were overrating him by expecting him to be a guarantee to change England's fortunes instantly.

I didn't say he's overrated because he contributed little in 27mins so most of what you typed here is pointless.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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English international football is ruled by conservatism, Rice and Phillips in midfield is typical of that. And not changing it up when it’s not really working would be typical of England too, just going with the tried and trusted formation that has led to 1 goal in 2 games.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Might be due to the injuries he's had, but yeah I'd agree.
Could be! Think he's been pretty good since coming back from his ACL issue midseason though he's generally played a bit higher down the stretch for Leicester - might just be Santos' inherent conservatism rearing its ugly head yet again.
 

balaks

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watching spurs every week may not help but man for man that england squad is vastly superior to what scotland have to offer, regardless of whether they are the second coming of jesus or not. do i think we’re good enough to beat all other contenders to win it? probably not, could we win it with the right kind of draw? probably. is that possible under southgate? no.
Scotland have a much better midfield and full backs than England based on the game tonight. They can't match England's fire power of course but that's not much use if you cannot control the game in midfield.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Scotland have a much better midfield and full backs than England based on the game tonight. They can't match England's fire power of course but that's not much use if you cannot control the game in midfield.
Yeah was odd how subdued Shaw was compared to how he's been this season. Have to think that's in large part down to coaching. I'm biased obviously but thought James was better of the English FBs, though wouldn't say he got the better of Robertson or anything and you're spot on to say England were second best in those wider areas.
 

GBBQ

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This England team is stacked with talent. Southgate has made some bold calls about what to do with some of the more mercurial talents at his disposal and so far he’s coming up short. If you make decisions to leave out Sancho or limit Grealish’s time you better hope the players you do pick over deliver.

That being said it’s the group stages and he’ll probably limp through to the next round and if he learns from his mistakes England could still do well.
 

Gonçalo Motta

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Pretty sure Southgate isn't rated that high and is part of the issue.

With that said, I think that the only player that is somewhat accurately rated outside England is Kane. In England, most players are put on a pedestal like they are the next big thing but they usually aren't.

Which English player is actually a top 3 player in his position bar Kane? TAA maybe?
 

VP89

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Pretty sure Southgate isn't rated that high and is part of the issue.

With that said, I think that the only player that is somewhat accurately rated outside England is Kane. In England, most players are put on a pedestal like they are the next big thing but they usually aren't.

Which English player is actually a top 3 player in his position bar Kane? TAA maybe?
I disagree. Mount is highly praised even by a manager with high standards like Tuchel. Foden is clearly a huge talent that is a big player for Pep now. I don't think it's unfair to say Shaw has been the best LB in the whole of the Premier league last season, and Sancho, Grealish and Bellingham are players who aren't just domestically rated.

The problem is the manger. He has his favourites and he has his limitations. He doesn't coach properly and he doesn't have any proper system. It shows as players get in the way of each other and make it up as they go along. This is nothing to do with quality and everything to do with direction.

He is an imbecile to put Grealish on the bench, to not bed in Sancho earlier, to insist on a weird double holding midfield and then have Mount right up the pitch. He does random bizarre things that makes the mind boggle.
 

Deery

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Overrated to the fecking gills Tierney and Robertson put the best left back in the world to shame with that performance..
 

bosnian_red

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Pretty sure Southgate isn't rated that high and is part of the issue.

With that said, I think that the only player that is somewhat accurately rated outside England is Kane. In England, most players are put on a pedestal like they are the next big thing but they usually aren't.

Which English player is actually a top 3 player in his position bar Kane? TAA maybe?
Sancho arguably. Grealish is up there though not top 3 in his position. They have some good players, Southgate is the biggest issue of course and their CB's and midfielders are way too average/negative, but they should be doing better (and starting their best players like Sancho and Grealish would be a start).
 

Born2Lose

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I think the job was easier for him when he didn't have so many options upfront. How Grealish doesn't start is beyond me.
 

lilcurt

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Ole was 10 times the player and had actually won something as a manager. He also did meah with us

What had Southgate ever achieved?
Firstly I am not talking about them as players, that is irrelevant. secondly, Ole has won nothing of note to warrant his position, let's not try and kid ourselves. I would also make a point that the United job is bigger than the England job and should this demand high ability.

Either way, my point wasn't who is better. It was making a statement that they are both extremely average to poor.
 

big rons sovereign

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Pickford, Mings, James, Rice in a double pivot, Foden…

If you rate that team you’re a bit dim.
Tbf, Ming's was one of the better players tonight. Kane sterling and rice were absolute dogshit.
I've seen people defending Kane saying he's had no service, but he just ambled about all night looking gormless.
Even when a cross did come in he didn't even bother going for it.

But the most frustrating thing for me was the apparent refusal to shoot.
The entire front 6 were at it, make the space for a shot, but instead of taking it check back and do it again or pass it.

Screaming at the TV "JUST feckING SHOOT!!!"
as sterling turns around and ays it sideways to mount for the 50th time.
 

Deery

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International football is a different kettle of fish your world class players have to come to the foremost to win matches and if you’re not world class then put in a world class performances.
 

Ali Dia

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For the first time in a while England aren’t actually overrated. They are rightly one of the favourites. Southgate is too cautious a manager given the amount of talent at his disposal. I think it looks like they will probably keep scraping through without blowing anybody away which is a shame. Most teams are going to set up pretty defensive against them but England should still have enough about them to knick a first half goal and pick teams off playing some nice stuff. Still nobody will care if it’s ugly but they manage to win it.
 

Mr Smith

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For me it's very clearly a Southgate problem. When the attacking players receive the Ball in the final third they are dangerous, but they don't get fed enough because Southgate is afraid to sacrifice his more conservative double pivot. Rice in particular is for me extremely conservative with his passing, and has either been instructed not to attempt line-breaking passes, or is not ambitious enough. I'm fine with the double pivot in bigger games, but here when England had 70% possession, I felt Southgate displayed a lack of tactical bravery not changing the shape of his team.

To be fair, it's not fatal. England didn't technically have to win this, and the current system will likely have more success when England can break into space. But I do feel that Southgate isn't quite playing to his player's strengths. This is the most technical England side in decades, and players like Mount, Grealish and For an should be trusted more; their teammates are just not feeding them enough in dangerous areas.
 

krentz

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He's got Bellingham, Grealish, and sancho YET he keep persistent with Rice, Phillips, and sterling? feckin coward.
 

Redlambs

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Playing the names even when drastically out of form because "I can rely on them" is classic England. Over hyping a youngster and calling him the next Gazza (who did feck all ultimately too) when he loses the plot and buys into his own hype, is classic England.

It's such a boring cliche that's used over and over, but it's absolutely true: we don't play as a team. We don't pick a manager who can build a team then let them just do it. I like Southgate, I like our young players, but once again we get to a tournament and it's the same old shit, stick with the players with the names. Sterling has been shit all season, Kane clearly isn't right, Foden needs the bench and an attitude adjustment and we are far too negative.
 

alexthelion

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Why am I niot surprised some have turned this into an Ole bashing thread.

Some idiots just can't help themselves.
 

::sonny::

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S’gate has been also a mediocre CB, costed England euro 96
 
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BluesJr

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Scotland have a much better midfield and full backs than England based on the game tonight. They can't match England's fire power of course but that's not much use if you cannot control the game in midfield.
Let's not forget one of those fullbacks plays for Motherwell. Fantastic to see.
 

Sweet Square

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Yeah like most have said it's a mix of both but really England main issue is a lack of a midfield and a giant Maguire shape hole in defence.
 

Dirty Schwein

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This is typical England media bull.

Win a game and "it's coming home, line up the trophy, who would you prefer to play on the final?" Etc

Lose a game and "oh my god what a shit team, they need to be stoned to death and dropped into the ocean, Kane is injured, Sterling is a cnut"

When in reality, England are an ok team with big potential and a clueless manager.
 

Foxbatt

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watching spurs every week may not help but man for man that england squad is vastly superior to what scotland have to offer, regardless of whether they are the second coming of jesus or not. do i think we’re good enough to beat all other contenders to win it? probably not, could we win it with the right kind of draw? probably. is that possible under southgate? no.
Isn't Jesus already at City now for the second time?
 

tjb

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Playing the names even when drastically out of form because "I can rely on them" is classic England. Over hyping a youngster and calling him the next Gazza (who did feck all ultimately too) when he loses the plot and buys into his own hype, is classic England.

It's such a boring cliche that's used over and over, but it's absolutely true: we don't play as a team. We don't pick a manager who can build a team then let them just do it. I like Southgate, I like our young players, but once again we get to a tournament and it's the same old shit, stick with the players with the names. Sterling has been shit all season, Kane clearly isn't right, Foden needs the bench and an attitude adjustment and we are far too negative.
My biggest issue is this...the Foden hype. He's clearly a good player, but he's not a creative messiah like the press are trying to hype him up to be. He still hasn't proven that he can ever get to that level either. There have been countless dimunitive players with great dribbling and agility across europe. Look at Insigne for Italy. It's a player type, and just like having pace and power doesn't mean a player will be top tier, dribbling and agility doesn't bring that either. In 2013, Barcelona were bragging about how many technically strong youngsters they had at the time. It's 2021 and none of them are in the Spanish national team. For me, its a case of England have a new type of player and the media and fans not really understanding his ability, strengths and weaknesses. They've gone the complete opposite of how they treated previous different players ( Scholes and Carrick). Ironically, Grealish is the real maverick of that team, but his age and club profile mean that the level of hype associated with him is far less that Foden's despite actually carrying a team this season.
 

acolyte

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All this nitpicking about whether Goretzka and Veratti are better than Foden and Grealish or whatever is distracting from the obvious answer. Your manager is championship level. If he was fired now the best job he'd be able to get is at West Brom.
 

POF

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Southgate isn't a great manager and England's players are clearly overrated but the "problem" is the same now as it's always been.

England expects.
 

marktan

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There are some fantastically talented players, especially in the final third, but the problem is there hasn't been a team built. The whole thing has always been unbalanced from aside from the front 3.

Look at France and Deschamps, super talented players yes but he knows how he wants the team to play and what role the players should play. And if doesn't work, he switches it quickly. They tried 4-2-3-1 initially at the WC and binned it quickly. He brought Benzema back for the Euros. They're happy to play defensive and hit on the counter with a lot of energy in midfield and on the flanks. It's a very modern style of play.

Southgate has no clue what sort of formation or style of play he wants to do. It's largely just the names he fancies, told to go and play, in the same way it always is for England.