Declan Rice

[amolbhatia50k]

Said it before but his deep lying playmaking ability is non existent. Which is why I do not think he's the answer to United's CDM problem. Leagues behind a Fabinho for me.

Yup, we need somebody like him or Rodri who can help us build up play from the back.

 

[Adcuth]

Id prefer Phillips over rice

 

[Bwuk]

Rice is a great player. England under Southgate are rubbish.

Hes not worth 90m. Half that.

 

[MadMike]

You'd think the Schneiderlin purchase would have taught us something.

We don't need a water carrier with limited ability on the ball. We need someone that can play football and make good use of the ball first as well as defend. Frankie De Jong moved for £75m to Barca, if we pay anywhere near the same for Rice we need shooting. He ain't fit to lace De Jong's boots. Every pass is sideways or backwards.

 

[Bebestation]

Was Schneiderlin good at the defensive ability like Rice is?

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Surely there's plenty of really good DM's out there for a fraction of the price. Just seems like way too much money for him.

 

[MadMike]

Was Schneiderlin good at the defensive ability like Rice is?

He was very good while at Southampton. He got capped for France while at Soton and he even started the 2014 WC for them playing in midfield next to Pogba, Matuidi and SIssoko.

 

[11101]

I've never got the hype with him but he is doing fine in the Euros. We haven't conceded a goal yet, he is doing his job. Its the players in front who are letting us down.

 

[Tarrou]

Are we actually in for Rice? I can’t see us going for him at the prices being talked about

 

[MadMike]

I've never got the hype with him but he is doing fine in the Euros. We haven't conceded a goal yet, he is doing his job. Its the players in front who are letting us down.

I can point to a vast array of players who are "doing fine" or "doing their jobs" and they wouldn't cost north of £15m never mind £50m. Also, he's a midfielder so his job is not just to defend and deliver a clean sheet. That's a central defenders job. Why are we dumbing down the requirements so much? Compare him to what Jorginho is doing for Italy or De Jong is doing for Netherlands because that's the kinda money he'd cost.

 

[Bebestation]

I've never got the hype with him but he is doing fine in the Euros. We haven't conceded a goal yet, he is doing his job. Its the players in front who are letting us down.

This is what I see with him to be honest.

England aren’t scoring enough goals and are arguably blaming the most defensive CDM.

Our CM, CAM, wingers or strikers are not making enough creative chances or goals.

Sure rice could be doing better but I wouldn’t exactly go and call it his job.

 

[DWelbz19]

80 million for a water carrier

Even that’s generous. He was hiding against McGinn and Gilmour.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

England aren’t scoring enough goals and are arguably blaming the most defensive CDM.

No-one is blaming Rice for England not scoring or creating enough.
We’re calling out an incredibly limited midfielder who couldn’t find a single searching ball between the lines in 180 minutes of football, 90 of them against Scotland ffs.
We’re calling out the idea this player would be some kind of big upgrade for the likes of Manchester United.

 

[MadMike]

England aren’t scoring enough goals and are arguably blaming the most defensive CDM.

You should work in agriculture building strawmen for farmers, you’d excel at it.

 

[11101]

I can point to a vast array of players who are "doing fine" or "doing their jobs" and they wouldn't cost north of £15m never mind £50m. Also, he's a midfielder so his job is not just to defend and deliver a clean sheet. That's a central defenders job. Why are we dumbing down the requirements so much? Compare him to what Jorginho is doing for Italy or De Jong is doing for Netherlands because that's the kinda money he'd cost.

He's the sitting midfielder in the three, I don't want him looking to spray balls around particularly. Can he do better? Most definitely. But it's not his problem when our attackers slow everything down or stand still when our defenders and midfielders are looking for a ball into the channels.

 

[OrcaFat]

He doesn’t look special.

But I think he would improve us a lot. Rice plus either Fred or McT would be a lot better than Fred and McT together.

Our main problem last season was conceding goals when we really shouldn’t have due to lack of shape, composure and leadership in midfield.

We need a player who does the job Rice does. We will concede fewer goals and will not go to pieces so much in the end of games. He would be worth 10-15 extra points through marginal gains - a few draws become wins, a few defeats become draws. If we get Rice and nobody else, we take the title race to the wire.

Yesterday, he started to stand out towards the end, when England were realising they weren’t going to win; he has the personality to drive the team. His skill set is pretty humdrum to the casual eye but he is what we are missing.

 

[MadMike]

He's the sitting midfielder in the three, I don't want him looking to spray balls around particularly. Can he do better? Most definitely. But it's not his problem when our attackers slow everything down or stand still when our defenders and midfielders are looking for a ball into the channels.

Based on what though? I haven't seen him do better and display some decent distribution or playmaking skills. Can you point to a game where he did more than defend? And I'm not talking about grabbing the odd random goal, but having an impact on the game with passing and tempo control.

Again, you are dumbing down the requirements to a ridiculous level. A sitting midfielder should absolutely also be good at passing and spraying balls, yes. Fabinho, Rodri, Jorginho, Kimmich, Busquets, Kroos, De Jong etc. they do this to varying degrees based on their ability but all significantly better than Rice. Which top team has a midfielder starting for them who nearly always passes backwards or sideways? If you personally don't want a midfielder with this versatility in their skillset, then honestly thank feck you're not working in recruitment for Man Utd.

Nobody is blaming him for England's failures to score or their disjointed attack. Stop using that strawman and hiding behind that argument. We are simply assessing his individual performances and his skillset as we see it. Almost every other midfielder he comes up against, seems to have more quality on the ball than him. Including Gilmour and McGinn.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Was Schneiderlin good at the defensive ability like Rice is?

Yes I think so. Here's his stats in Southampton before we signed him:

13-14: 3.4 tackle, 2.1 interception, 1.5 ariel duels, 7.21 avg rating
14-15: 3.7 tackle, 2.6 inteception, 1.8 ariel duels, 7.51 avg rating

And here's the stats of Rice at West Ham:

19-20: 3.1 tackle, 2 interception, 1.4 ariel duels, 7.01 avg rating
20-21: 1.8 tackle, 1.8 interception, 1.4 ariel duels, 7.01 avg rating

In fact, Schneiderlin at Southampton was better than Rice at West Ham. I remember at that time, everyone wants Schneiderlin, and has no doubts he will be great signing for us.

 

[11101]

Based on what though? I haven't seen him do better and display some decent distribution or playmaking skills. Can you point to a game where he did more than defend? And I'm not talking about grabbing the odd random goal, but having an impact on the game with passing and tempo control.

Again, you are dumbing down the requirements to a ridiculous level. A sitting midfielder should absolutely also be good at passing and spraying balls, yes. Fabinho, Rodri, Jorginho, Kimmich, Busquets, Kroos, De Jong etc. they do this to varying degrees based on their ability but all significantly better than Rice. Which top team has a midfielder starting for them who nearly always passes backwards or sideways? If you personally don't want a midfielder with this versatility in their skillset, then honestly thank feck you're not working in recruitment for Man Utd.

Nobody is blaming him for England's failures to score or their disjointed attack. Stop using that strawman and hiding behind that argument. We are simply assessing his individual performances and his skillset as we see it. Almost every other midfielder he comes up against, seems to have more quality on the ball than him. Including Gilmour and McGinn.

I think you missed the bit where I said I don't see the hype with him. I haven't seen him do anything to justify the price tag, but blaming him for England's poor performance is unfair as the part of the job he was given, he did well.

 

[MadMike]

I think you missed the bit where I said I don't see the hype with him. I haven't seen him do anything to justify the price tag, but blaming him for England's poor performance is unfair as the part of the job he was given, he did well.

Well good thing that no one is doing that then and the only time I see this even mentioned is as a part of defence of him as a player.

 

[Adisa]

I wouldn't buy him for £40m. There is no point spending money on the wrong player. We are looking to build a CL winning side. Buy a DM that can play. Someone of the profile of Fabinho is what we should be looking at...not another player who is at his best when his team don't have the ball.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Rice is a good player but not worth the money quoted, but like Maguire he would help United. He's not a deep-lying playmaker though, I don't know what people expect of him to be like Frenkie De Jong or Pirlo or something. He's a defensive midfielder, with Pogba and Fernandes he could work well. Different teams need different things. England need more than that because they don't have a player like Pogba.

 

[bsCallout]

It's not a one for me. Hope we avoid, plenty of better value options we could go for.

 

[OrcaFat]

Yes I think so. Here's his stats in Southampton before we signed him:

13-14: 3.4 tackle, 2.1 interception, 1.5 ariel duels, 7.21 avg rating
14-15: 3.7 tackle, 2.6 inteception, 1.8 ariel duels, 7.51 avg rating

And here's the stats of Rice at West Ham:

19-20: 3.1 tackle, 2 interception, 1.4 ariel duels, 7.01 avg rating
20-21: 1.8 tackle, 1.8 interception, 1.4 ariel duels, 7.01 avg rating

In fact, Schneiderlin at Southampton was better than Rice at West Ham. I remember at that time, everyone wants Schneiderlin, and has no doubts he will be great signing for us.

Yes, we thought Schneiderlin would be great. He wasn’t. That tells you how vital personality is. Many good players have folded here.

Players with the right personality can transcend their natural ability in this environment. But it is rare to find that personality. SAF always referred to that and Ole also looks for personality as a primary element. Rice has it. His numbers would improve here.

 

[MadMike]

I wouldn't buy him for £40m. There is no point spending money on the wrong player. We are looking to build a CL winning side. Buy a DM that can play. Someone of the profile of Fabinho is what we should be looking at...not another player who is at his best when his team don't have the ball.

That's exactly where I'm coming from. People say he's not worth money mentioned as a kind of defence, but feck that I'd rather spend more money on the right player than less money on the wrong player. The latter is just a waste. He's just not a good fit for any team that wants to dominate games and play on the front foot. When his team has the ball he is simply very limited. That's not a player for us, regardless of price.

 

[MadMike]

Yes, we thought Schneiderlin would be great. He wasn’t. That tells you how vital personality is. Many good players have folded here.

Players with the right personality can transcend their natural ability in this environment. But it is rare to find that personality. SAF always referred to that and Ole also looks for personality as a primary element. Rice has it. His numbers would improve here.

It's much easier to judge skills than personality or character from the stands. On top of that, personality alone will only take you that far if you haven't got the skills.

I have no idea where you're plucking this from that Rice has the character to become a better player if he pulls on a United shirt than he is for West Ham or England. Your certainty of that, seems completely absurd to me.

 

[CM]

Last night was precisely why he won't make a blind bit of difference to our midfield. We need someone capable of dictating play and that just isn't his game.

 

[OrcaFat]

It's much easier to judge skills than personality or character from the stands. On top of that, personality alone will only take you that far if you haven't got the skills.

I have no idea where you're plucking this from that Rice has the character to become a better player if he pulls on a United shirt than he is for West Ham or England. Your certainty of that, seems completely absurd to me.

It’s clear I rate him and what he does a lot higher than you do.

He’s not going to transform into Redondo but I would never expect that of him. But if you read around what people who have worked with Rice have said about him, he is a born winner and a born leader. He will get every ounce out of the ability he has and will always be pushing his potential ceiling up. He will not be a playmaker in the Carrick mould but I’m sure he will continue to improve all parts of his game including his passing - he has the right personality for that.

That said, he will never be the player you want.

 

[cyberman]

Last night was precisely why he won't make a blind bit of difference to our midfield. We need someone capable of dictating play and that just isn't his game.

Last night is 90 percent of our games in a season. The DM has little to do becsause the opposition doesnt push up so hes onlu useful for a small percentage of play when the opposition spring a counter attack. He will be next to useless for us other than that. Especially when we play higher and have Maguire step past midfield with the ball. Even then Scotland passed around him a bit last night.

 

[OrcaFat]

Last night is 90 percent of our games in a season. The DM has little to do becsause the opposition doesnt push up so hes onlu useful for a small percentage of play when the opposition spring a counter attack. He will be next to useless for us other than that. Especially when we play higher and have Maguire step past midfield with the ball. Even then Scotland passed around him a bit last night.

Rice would be particularly useful when Maguire goes forward as he had the intelligence and ability to drop in at CB.

 

[Abraxas]

He's the sitting midfielder in the three, I don't want him looking to spray balls around particularly. Can he do better? Most definitely. But it's not his problem when our attackers slow everything down or stand still when our defenders and midfielders are looking for a ball into the channels.

This would be fine if he was getting the ball into said attackers at a reasonable pace. It is all connected, it doesn't half make life difficult for attackers when the defence and both CMs are moving it around with no tempo.

 

[cyberman]

Rice would be particularly useful when Maguire goes forward as he had the intelligence and ability to drop in at CB.

We dont need anyone dropping back. Whats the point in Maguire pushing forward if we are just dropping a midfielder back anyway? The whole point of it is to get an extra man in midfield.

 

[OrcaFat]

We dont need anyone dropping back. Whats the point in Maguire pushing forward if we are just dropping a midfielder back anyway? The whole point of it is to get an extra man in midfield.

I prefer to have a player who can cover if Maguire is going to run into the box (which he does very well from time to time).

Im sure you know it’s not just about getting an extra man in midfield. It’s about taking the opportunity to run into space when it’s there, drawing oppo players out of position, upsetting their shape. You can’t blithely do that without proper cover in the space you leave behind.

 

[luke511]

You'd think the Schneiderlin purchase would have taught us something.

We don't need a water carrier with limited ability on the ball. We need someone that can play football and make good use of the ball first as well as defend. Frankie De Jong moved for £75m to Barca, if we pay anywhere near the same for Rice we need shooting. He ain't fit to lace De Jong's boots. Every pass is sideways or backwards.

I was going to say he reminds me of Schneiderlin, where you could go the whole game without noticing him do a thing.

 

[PeterWunited]

How are Rice and Phillips an upgrade on Mcfred. Some people want us to pay millions for them.
Last night showed that against low block teams a double pivot does not work. You need a more creative midfielder alongside a holding midfielder.
Maybe Rice or Phillips by themself may work, but I wouldn't want to pay £80M to try to find out.

 

[Raees]

Rice is a good player but not worth the money quoted, but like Maguire he would help United. He's not a deep-lying playmaker though, I don't know what people expect of him to be like Frenkie De Jong or Pirlo or something. He's a defensive midfielder, with Pogba and Fernandes he could work well. Different teams need different things. England need more than that because they don't have a player like Pogba.

CDM's that limited should not be playing for big sides period regardless of how silky your regista or CAM is.

You don't see Pep sides put in a donkey there because even the pivot needs to be a baller.

 

[Adisa]

He's the sitting midfielder in the three, I don't want him looking to spray balls around particularly. Can he do better? Most definitely. But it's not his problem when our attackers slow everything down or stand still when our defenders and midfielders are looking for a ball into the channels.

Just look at the top teams in the last decade. Their DMs are very good ball players. Busquets, Fernandinho, Casimero, Fabinho, Matic. Even if your DM is primarily to shield the back four, top teams need their DMs to pass forward between the lines quickly. All the players I mentioned are good at that. Rice hasn't shown that and imo never will because it is not his game.
It is compounded by the fact that Pogba and especially Fernandes have poor short passing games. We not only need a DM that's good defensively and good at passing forward, we need someone that can settle it down and dictate the tempo fast or patient. A young Matic is the exact kind of DM we need, not Rice.

 

[CM]

How are Rice and Phillips an upgrade on Mcfred. Some people want us to pay millions for them.
Last night showed that against low block teams a double pivot does not work. You need a more creative midfielder alongside a holding midfielder.
Maybe Rice or Phillips by themself may work, but I wouldn't want to pay £80M to try to find out.

They aren't, you're exactly right. The difference between those two versus the likes of Frenkie de Jong or Locatelli (even Barella) is night and day.

We need players who know how to take care of the ball, especially in big games, otherwise we're paying premium price for another McTominay and Fred situation.

 

[sillwuka]

Top DMs are rare and hard to find - Rice is not one of them. Just because he can play there doesn't mean he's worth £70m.

Here's a tip - go to Brazil and look for one. Casemiro, Fernandinho, Fabinho, all the good ones lately have come from there - probably because the defensive midfielders can also pass the ball well

We tried that already with our very own Fred.

 

[DWelbz19]

Just look at the top teams in the last decade. Their DMs are very good ball players. Busquets, Fernandinho, Casimero, Fabinho, Matic. Even if your DM is primarily to shield the back four, top teams need their DMs to pass forward between the lines quickly. All the players I mentioned are good at that. Rice hasn't shown that and imo never will because it is not his game.
It is compounded by the fact that Pogba and especially Fernandes have poor short passing games. We not only need a DM that's good defensively and good at passing forward, we need someone that can settle it down and dictate the tempo fast or patient. A young Matic is the exact kind of DM we need, not Rice.

Great point. Someone like Frenkie de Jong would be phenomenal for us. Effortless at zipping the ball across 5-15 yards, constantly moving up and down the pitch.