Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .

4bars

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A lack of political will is by far the biggest barrier. Given that most of these "standards" are specifically designed to prejudice poorer countries in favour of the bloc.
So health and, environmental reasons (among other reasons) are designed not to protect our health and environment but to go against poor countries. I am sure they used also the mad cows to revisit what was feeding to the cows also to feck the poor countries too

Your arguments are beyond ridiculous.
 

finneh

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So health and, environmental reasons (among other reasons) are designed not to protect our health and environment but to go against poor countries. I am sure they used also the mad cows to revisit what was feeding to the cows also to feck the poor countries too

Your arguments are beyond ridiculous.
If you think governments and politicians across the planet don't regularly use health, safety and environmental reasons to increase taxes, rules, regulations, curbs to their freedom etc then I'm unsure how you'll be convinced. That's literally just politicians being politicians.
 

UweBein

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..... Anyway, this will be one for the ages and will probably be studied for generations to come, so we better get into it.

.....
To me it seems that the explanation is already there.
There is or has been a rise in nationalism. (Not only in UK, but across all of Europe). Opponents often label it as racism, but I am not sure whether I agree.

One thing that seems to be clear now (and it wasn't ten years ago) is that especially the poorer classes of society did not profit in the same way from the UK being an EU member. Also the same classes had to experience the negative effects of immigration like competing for the same jobs, appartments, public spaces, sharing the same schools etc. If you live in a nice neighbourhood in Hertfordshire you can pretty much detach your reality from these negative effects, but it's not the same for people with a lower economic mobility and strength. Probably, there has been a feeling of helplessness among a significant share of the Brexit voters (who on the basis of economic impact probably should not have voted for Brexit), so they regarded the Brexit vote as a kind of last exit possibility. Of course the campaign captured these underlying issues quite well and showed these voters a possible path. (It won't work of course, because at the end it is a problem in the internal social structure. The negative effects of Brexit might even counter any positive effects like higher paid low income jobs because prices will rise or the next Spain holiday becomes more expensive. )

Specifically in Britain, you can probably blame Blair quite a bit for this development. He was just looking at the positive effects of immigration which are undoubtedly there, but these effects are not solely positive.

And you can blame BoJo & co all you want, but we are witnessing similar approaches across Europe (Hungary, Poland, Italy, France are the obvious examples; Spain ruthlessly pushing back on illegal immigration, the CJEU declaring push-backs as legal, Denmark trying to restructure "problematic" neighbourhoods, the German left has suddenly discovered the disproportionate burden of immigration that the economically poor have to deal with.) The major difference is the anti-EU approach which was chosen in the UK. That worked in the UK because there has been an anti EU theme for many decades in the UK, which was exploited for the referendum.
 

Brwned

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Maybe some of the rich Brexiteers might start getting antsy when fancy restaurant stop being able to serve them food. They didn't care much about seasonal working in farming but that's out of sight, out of mind. Or it was just a question of getting our lazy young people to do some manual labour, it'll do them some good, teach tham the value of a hard day's work. This one strikes closer to home and doesn't quite land with the usual tropes. And as much as they'll want to deflect to furlough, it's kind of obvious how much restaurant staff came from the EU in the first place...

A Michelin-star restaurant has said it will no longer open at lunchtimes due to a shortage of staff.

David Moore, the founder of Pied à Terre in London, said he decided to halt the restaurant's lunchtime menu to "preserve" his depleted workforce.

"If I slog them to death, in two weeks' time, I won't have a restaurant," he told the BBC.

Mr Moore is the latest of several hospitality business owners to raise concerns over staff shortages.

"You struggle through everything that we have had to struggle through with Covid, and then you come back and you get another kick in the teeth," said Mr Moore.

As the UK economy emerges from the effects of the pandemic, several industries have reported shortages of staff, with UK job vacancies hitting their highest level since March 2020.

The hospitality sector has been hit harder than most, having to cease trading during lockdowns and operating under tight restrictions.

It has led to many staff being placed on furlough, which has prompted some to leave the profession. Industry body UK Hospitality has said waiting staff and chefs are in particular demand.

Restaurateur Mr Moore said 800 people applied for a receptionist role in November 2020, but he received just seven responses when he re-advertised for the role three weeks ago, and no-one showed up to an interview.

He said higher wages were "still not getting the eyeballs" on advertisements.

"I don't know anybody who is not looking for a kitchen porter," he added.

Mr Moore said Brexit was "definitely the biggest" factor behind staff shortages, and he said the "heartbeat" of the hospitality industry was "young kids" coming from abroad to work in restaurants and bars to gain life experience and new skills.

"[The government] don't realise the huge commodity we have that they have excluded us from, that keeps this industry moving more than anything else," he said.

He said before the pandemic, just three out of his 30-strong workforce were British. His restaurant currently has 12 staff.
 

Dans

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To me it seems that the explanation is already there.
There is or has been a rise in nationalism. (Not only in UK, but across all of Europe). Opponents often label it as racism, but I am not sure whether I agree.

One thing that seems to be clear now (and it wasn't ten years ago) is that especially the poorer classes of society did not profit in the same way from the UK being an EU member. Also the same classes had to experience the negative effects of immigration like competing for the same jobs, appartments, public spaces, sharing the same schools etc. If you live in a nice neighbourhood in Hertfordshire you can pretty much detach your reality from these negative effects, but it's not the same for people with a lower economic mobility and strength. Probably, there has been a feeling of helplessness among a significant share of the Brexit voters (who on the basis of economic impact probably should not have voted for Brexit), so they regarded the Brexit vote as a kind of last exit possibility. Of course the campaign captured these underlying issues quite well and showed these voters a possible path. (It won't work of course, because at the end it is a problem in the internal social structure. The negative effects of Brexit might even counter any positive effects like higher paid low income jobs because prices will rise or the next Spain holiday becomes more expensive. )

Specifically in Britain, you can probably blame Blair quite a bit for this development. He was just looking at the positive effects of immigration which are undoubtedly there, but these effects are not solely positive.

And you can blame BoJo & co all you want, but we are witnessing similar approaches across Europe (Hungary, Poland, Italy, France are the obvious examples; Spain ruthlessly pushing back on illegal immigration, the CJEU declaring push-backs as legal, Denmark trying to restructure "problematic" neighbourhoods, the German left has suddenly discovered the disproportionate burden of immigration that the economically poor have to deal with.) The major difference is the anti-EU approach which was chosen in the UK. That worked in the UK because there has been an anti EU theme for many decades in the UK, which was exploited for the referendum.
But the poorer classes did profit, immensely. They are now only just realising what they have lost - case in point, Wales, to where millions in European Regional Development Fund money flowed during the EU membership to invest in infrastructure and more, money which will not be replaced by London. Why they ever thought that this wouldn't be the post Brexit scenario is beyond me (probably they didn't think is the answer to that one).
 

Brwned

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Hello everyone! I've been reading this post for about 2 years and recently I got access to post in this forum.

I would like to thank the posters that have been willing to have the same discussions over and over again with the same posters with varying lines of argument, in order to expose the very discernible fact (not only now, but 5 years ago as well) that this was a very bad idea and that people in the UK (and some colaterals like Ireland) will suffer the huge consequences as well.

I'm not from the UK (or the EU for that matter), but I have found myself absorbed (for the lack of a better word) witnessing this extremely slow motion car crash for the last couple of years, and I still haven't processed very well how a country made a decission that is the sociopolitical/economic equivalent of deciding that, in a race against other countries, the best way to win is to keep hitting yourself in the crotch with a baseball bat while running. I understand that it's a mixture of a bunch of very ambitious people with no scruples, an increasingly corrupt and coward governing party, an increasingly inept and out of touch (while also coward) opposition party, an immensely misinformed electorate and a very vague (and also misinformed) feeling of pride and nostalgia for "the good old days" across the population. Anyway, this will be one for the ages and will probably be studied for generations to come, so we better get into it.

Maybe I sound the wrong way while writing this: obviously, the situation is terrible and the -usually poor- people is already facing the consequences. I'm sorry if that's the case, English isn't my native language and, as I said before, this is one of these situations when you just can't look away even when you want to. Anyway, the first step to recovery should be to admit the problem, and if the government isn't willing to do so then the job falls in the hands of the electorate. Will they be up to the task? How to make it work?

Sorry for the long post, I've been here a lot of time reading and learning from all of you and just wanted to say hello and thanks. I'll try to participate if I can.
:lol: that's a very insightful summary from an outside perspective, far more nformative than the endless back-and-forth you referred to! Cheers for sharing.

If you think governments and politicians across the planet don't regularly use health, safety and environmental reasons to increase taxes, rules, regulations, curbs to their freedom etc then I'm unsure how you'll be convinced. That's literally just politicians being politicians.
Of course, that's not what he's arguing against. Yes politicians use those reasons for those policy choices. The fact that those policy choices are designed to do what you claim is the point of contention. If you don't even recognise the leap then yes the conversation is unlikely to go very far, but not because he has an odd starting position.
 

UweBein

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But the poorer classes did profit, immensely. They are now only just realising what they have lost - case in point, Wales, to where millions in European Regional Development Fund money flowed during the EU membership to invest in infrastructure and more, money which will not be replaced by London. Why they ever thought that this wouldn't be the post Brexit scenario is beyond me (probably they didn't think is the answer to that one).
They did, but they also had to live with and experience the negative consequences of it in a more direct way. That's what I'm saying.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Agriculture industry in the UK employs only 1.5% of the total workforce and represents 0.61% of the economy. You are debating mice nuts.

In the agri sector the big 5 items are Dairy, Wheat, Poultry, Beef and Pork. These are not largely the agri items that will be imported from Australia. They'll represent some of it but it will be fruit, wine, fisheries and grains that will be had. And there'll be plenty going back the other way.

Guaranteeing a cheap source of food for the UK isn't a massively bad move. Tariff free is a fair argument.

It's Aussie businesses that will suffer more than UK based ones once goods and services start to move the other way. They'll lap up cheaper Toorak tractors (Range Rovers), Jags and Aston Martins. Match your cheap wine to those industries.
If farmers go out of business in the UK it won't be going the other way. If the UK imports meat from Australia they won't sell any to the EU. The fisheries will be soon out of business. Wine is pennies and by the way Jacob's Creek which is owned by a French company. The UK already sell cars to Australia but the volume of business is so small it's peanuts. Australia trade mainly with countries which are close to them. The transport costs will kill any possible gains; fresh food can't be sold, it goes off.

Aussie businesses are rubbing their hands while China are causing them problems.

If the UK continue to have deals like this with tariff free access they won't have any industry at all. Then what are you going to sell?

So fisheries going, farmers going, services going, fruit and veg soon, steel next, then tourism , car sector, engineering, where does it stop?
The UK dumping ground for the world and no jobs.
 

JPRouve

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people that are in the market for Aston Martins, Jaguars or Range Rovers aren't affected by tarrifs particularly when Australia doesn't really have a comparable industry so this market is already filled with exports.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Hello everyone! I've been reading this post for about 2 years and recently I got access to post in this forum.

I would like to thank the posters that have been willing to have the same discussions over and over again with the same posters with varying lines of argument, in order to expose the very discernible fact (not only now, but 5 years ago as well) that this was a very bad idea and that people in the UK (and some colaterals like Ireland) will suffer the huge consequences as well.

I'm not from the UK (or the EU for that matter), but I have found myself absorbed (for the lack of a better word) witnessing this extremely slow motion car crash for the last couple of years, and I still haven't processed very well how a country made a decission that is the sociopolitical/economic equivalent of deciding that, in a race against other countries, the best way to win is to keep hitting yourself in the crotch with a baseball bat while running. I understand that it's a mixture of a bunch of very ambitious people with no scruples, an increasingly corrupt and coward governing party, an increasingly inept and out of touch (while also coward) opposition party, an immensely misinformed electorate and a very vague (and also misinformed) feeling of pride and nostalgia for "the good old days" across the population. Anyway, this will be one for the ages and will probably be studied for generations to come, so we better get into it.

Maybe I sound the wrong way while writing this: obviously, the situation is terrible and the -usually poor- people is already facing the consequences. I'm sorry if that's the case, English isn't my native language and, as I said before, this is one of these situations when you just can't look away even when you want to. Anyway, the first step to recovery should be to admit the problem, and if the government isn't willing to do so then the job falls in the hands of the electorate. Will they be up to the task? How to make it work?

Sorry for the long post, I've been here a lot of time reading and learning from all of you and just wanted to say hello and thanks. I'll try to participate if I can.
Very good summary.
You have an advantage that your mind has not been corrupted by the British politicians nor the British media. Keep it that way.
 

Maticmaker

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Sorry for the long post, I've been here a lot of time reading and learning from all of you and just wanted to say hello and thanks. I'll try to participate if I can.
Don't worry, they will love you to bits on this thread, definitely preaching to the choir.:rolleyes:
 

Paul the Wolf

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To me it seems that the explanation is already there.
There is or has been a rise in nationalism. (Not only in UK, but across all of Europe). Opponents often label it as racism, but I am not sure whether I agree.

One thing that seems to be clear now (and it wasn't ten years ago) is that especially the poorer classes of society did not profit in the same way from the UK being an EU member. Also the same classes had to experience the negative effects of immigration like competing for the same jobs, appartments, public spaces, sharing the same schools etc. If you live in a nice neighbourhood in Hertfordshire you can pretty much detach your reality from these negative effects, but it's not the same for people with a lower economic mobility and strength. Probably, there has been a feeling of helplessness among a significant share of the Brexit voters (who on the basis of economic impact probably should not have voted for Brexit), so they regarded the Brexit vote as a kind of last exit possibility. Of course the campaign captured these underlying issues quite well and showed these voters a possible path. (It won't work of course, because at the end it is a problem in the internal social structure. The negative effects of Brexit might even counter any positive effects like higher paid low income jobs because prices will rise or the next Spain holiday becomes more expensive. )

Specifically in Britain, you can probably blame Blair quite a bit for this development. He was just looking at the positive effects of immigration which are undoubtedly there, but these effects are not solely positive.

And you can blame BoJo & co all you want, but we are witnessing similar approaches across Europe (Hungary, Poland, Italy, France are the obvious examples; Spain ruthlessly pushing back on illegal immigration, the CJEU declaring push-backs as legal, Denmark trying to restructure "problematic" neighbourhoods, the German left has suddenly discovered the disproportionate burden of immigration that the economically poor have to deal with.) The major difference is the anti-EU approach which was chosen in the UK. That worked in the UK because there has been an anti EU theme for many decades in the UK, which was exploited for the referendum.
A lot of the Brexit vote came from places like that, who weren't touched much by immigration; it was the thought that some foreigner might come and play cricket on the village green.
 

Dans

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They did, but they also had to live with and experience the negative consequences of it in a more direct way. That's what I'm saying.
I suspect that within a few years when they realise that London is not ponying up a damn thing, those folk will happily exchange letting in a few hard working immigrants for some money to fix up their shithole areas.
 

Dans

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If farmers go out of business in the UK it won't be going the other way. If the UK imports meat from Australia they won't sell any to the EU. The fisheries will be soon out of business. Wine is pennies and by the way Jacob's Creek which is owned by a French company. The UK already sell cars to Australia but the volume of business is so small it's peanuts. Australia trade mainly with countries which are close to them. The transport costs will kill any possible gains; fresh food can't be sold, it goes off.

Aussie businesses are rubbing their hands while China are causing them problems.

If the UK continue to have deals like this with tariff free access they won't have any industry at all. Then what are you going to sell?

So fisheries going, farmers going, services going, fruit and veg soon, steel next, then tourism , car sector, engineering, where does it stop?
The UK dumping ground for the world and no jobs.
But who cares! Boris has just done an unparalleled deal! Unparalleled indeed. Such a fraud.
 

Paul the Wolf

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But who cares! Boris has just done an unparalleled deal! Unparalleled indeed. Such a fraud.
Actually I was just looking at the CPTPP agreement which is Truss's next mission.
This is according to the British government going to bring another £12bn in business by 2030. Wow.

What that fails to mention is that most of it is with Canada, Japan, Mexico, Singapore and Vietnam all of which the EU (including the UK if they had stayed) already had an agreement. The only one of any consequence that was missing from the CPTPP was Australia (which was still tiny). Australia and NZ are in talks with the EU.

How do brexiteers buy into all this BS?
 

Green_Red

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If farmers go out of business in the UK it won't be going the other way. If the UK imports meat from Australia they won't sell any to the EU. The fisheries will be soon out of business. Wine is pennies and by the way Jacob's Creek which is owned by a French company. The UK already sell cars to Australia but the volume of business is so small it's peanuts. Australia trade mainly with countries which are close to them. The transport costs will kill any possible gains; fresh food can't be sold, it goes off.

Aussie businesses are rubbing their hands while China are causing them problems.

If the UK continue to have deals like this with tariff free access they won't have any industry at all. Then what are you going to sell?

So fisheries going, farmers going, services going, fruit and veg soon, steel next, then tourism , car sector, engineering, where does it stop?
The UK dumping ground for the world and no jobs.
Ownership means nothing, most scotch whiskeys are owned by Mexicans. It means nothing, country of origin is where it counts.

The UK sells cars at a premium because they have to pay import costs. Removal of that beings down the cost of UK manufactured cars vs European. As someone who has actually lived in Australia and works as a manufacturing consultant I'm probably better placed than you to actually understand it on the ground. Sending a container to Australia from the UK is about £3500, I know because I recently did it.

Aussie businesses are not rubbing their hands as much as you think, not in the sectors where you think they're going to kill UK industry like agriculture, I'm not sure where you're getting that information.

By the way, next time you buy a banana, mango, avocado, or any other tropical fruit remind yourself that fruit is perishable and then ask how you're buying it in Northern France. That's a ridiculous statement from someone that says they work in logistics because most logistics people will be aware of how fruit is transported internationally.


www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2003/may/10/foodanddrink.shopping6
 

sun_tzu

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Actually I was just looking at the CPTPP agreement which is Truss's next mission.
This is according to the British government going to bring another £12bn in business by 2030. Wow.

What that fails to mention is that most of it is with Canada, Japan, Mexico, Singapore and Vietnam all of which the EU (including the UK if they had stayed) already had an agreement. The only one of any consequence that was missing from the CPTPP was Australia (which was still tiny). Australia and NZ are in talks with the EU.

How do brexiteers buy into all this BS?
Actually there are some small differences between CPTPP membership and the EU deal and its probably these that allow brexiteers to claim it will be a roring success whilst for people like myself who feel we have lost far more economically (and culturally) by brexit than we will gain elsewehere but even as a proud ramain / rejoiner I will admit there are differences

the two primary differences that I see that allow brexiteers to put a positive spin on this are:

1. Trade in services which is not covered under the current eu deals but is by CPTPP i think?
2. Its a trading block only and does not seek to impose laws, a single market or a customs union - i.e. its politically on message for the type of brexit championed by brexiteers whilst painting UK as a global trader (Im not sold on that idea myself but can see how brexiteers buy into it)
 

Abizzz

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The whole Brexit vote was a mistake, most sensible people know that, but the arguing and positioning people are doing where they think they're better than Brexiteers thing is so old now. I laughed my arse off when I watched it unfold from Australia, and if I had a vote and lived in the UK I would have voted remain. The whole argument about it is over, move on to the next thing. 5 years later people are still pointing at the problem, it makes you look like as big a tool as people that voted leave. It's done. Are you going to spend the rest of your life saying I told you so? Petty as feck. We know it was a mistake, but it happened, what can anyone do about it now?
But it's not done. That's why the brexiteers keep coming demanding this or that, because they still think they can get what they promised to people. It won't be done until some advantageous arrangement is found. The consequences of Brexit have only just begun.
 

sun_tzu

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The whole Brexit vote was a mistake, most sensible people know that, but the arguing and positioning people are doing where they think they're better than Brexiteers thing is so old now. I laughed my arse off when I watched it unfold from Australia, and if I had a vote and lived in the UK I would have voted remain. The whole argument about it is over, move on to the next thing. 5 years later people are still pointing at the problem, it makes you look like as big a tool as people that voted leave. It's done. Are you going to spend the rest of your life saying I told you so? Petty as feck. We know it was a mistake, but it happened, what can anyone do about it now?
To be fair a sizeable proportion of people who voted against joining never shut up about it for 40 years till they managed to get their way and leave... I for one am happy to push back against the decision and Im pretty confident with demographics on our side we will be able to rejoin in some way a lot quicker than 40 years
 

Green_Red

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To be fair a sizeable proportion of people who voted against joining never shut up about it for 40 years till they managed to get their way and leave... I for one am happy to push back against the decision and Im pretty confident with demographics on our side we will be able to rejoin in some way a lot quicker than 40 years
I wonder whether that will happen and how government would go about making it happen. I now have a vote and would definitely vote join. Don't know who would suggest it though because the opposition is so weak now.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Ownership means nothing, most scotch whiskeys are owned by Mexicans. It means nothing, country of origin is where it counts.

The UK sells cars at a premium because they have to pay import costs. Removal of that beings down the cost of UK manufactured cars vs European. As someone who has actually lived in Australia and works as a manufacturing consultant I'm probably better placed than you to actually understand it on the ground. Sending a container to Australia from the UK is about £3500, I know because I recently did it.

Aussie businesses are not rubbing their hands as much as you think, not in the sectors where you think they're going to kill UK industry like agriculture, I'm not sure where you're getting that information.

By the way, next time you buy a banana, mango, avocado, or any other tropical fruit remind yourself that fruit is perishable and then ask how you're buying it in Northern France. That's a ridiculous statement from someone that says they work in logistics because most logistics people will be aware of how fruit is transported internationally.


www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2003/may/10/foodanddrink.shopping6
I'm not in Northern France (SW) nor am I in logistics. I was an international trader and shipped goods to all over the world from all over the world for over 30 years until I retired 5 years ago including shipping goods to Australia. The price of a container was about what you quoted back then , recently another poster quoted a much higher price. Don't forget a refrigerated container costs much more than a standard one. The article you quoted shows how bad it is transporting fruit and veg over such long distances , when you have such an abundance of fresh fruit and veg on your doorstep.

Having worked most of my time with Africa (hi Finneh, it's the Chinese you know) , I know how nice fresh mangoes for example taste compared to the crap you can buy in supermarkets.
the Jacob's Creek quip , although true was a joke.

But in any case trade with Australia will be very small and will cause problems selling to the EU which will still be the UK's main market, just much less and much more difficult.
 

Green_Red

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I'm not in Northern France (SW) nor am I in logistics. I was an international trader and shipped goods to all over the world from all over the world for over 30 years until I retired 5 years ago including shipping goods to Australia. The price of a container was about what you quoted back then , recently another poster quoted a much higher price. Don't forget a refrigerated container costs much more than a standard one. The article you quoted shows how bad it is transporting fruit and veg over such long distances , when you have such an abundance of fresh fruit and veg on your doorstep.

Having worked most of my time with Africa (hi Finneh, it's the Chinese you know) , I know how nice fresh mangoes for example taste compared to the crap you can buy in supermarkets.
the Jacob's Creek quip , although true was a joke.

But in any case trade with Australia will be very small and will cause problems selling to the EU which will still be the UK's main market, just much less and much more difficult.
Yea I agree with the trade with Australia, although I do think grains and raw materials for food manufacture will be something that happens. Personally I think more trade is good no matter how you look at it. A more global country is a stronger country, I doubt anyone would argue against that. Being in control of your own trade agreements has its benefits too, even if it is against the backdrop of brexit. They just need to be negotiated by people that have half a clue.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Actually there are some small differences between CPTPP membership and the EU deal and its probably these that allow brexiteers to claim it will be a roring success whilst for people like myself who feel we have lost far more economically (and culturally) by brexit than we will gain elsewehere but even as a proud ramain / rejoiner I will admit there are differences

the two primary differences that I see that allow brexiteers to put a positive spin on this are:

1. Trade in services which is not covered under the current eu deals but is by CPTPP i think?
2. Its a trading block only and does not seek to impose laws, a single market or a customs union - i.e. its politically on message for the type of brexit championed by brexiteers whilst painting UK as a global trader (Im not sold on that idea myself but can see how brexiteers buy into it)
I'm using the government's claims. The current figures I have is current exports are £25bn in total add 65% increase claimed £16bn actually is less??

I know it's a political message but political messages only help Boris Johnson, not the UK
 

JPRouve

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Yea I agree with the trade with Australia, although I do think grains and raw materials for food manufacture will be something that happens. Personally I think more trade is good no matter how you look at it. A more global country is a stronger country, I doubt anyone would argue against that. Being in control of your own trade agreements has its benefits too, even if it is against the backdrop of brexit. They just need to be negotiated by people that have half a clue.
You are not getting more trade but worse trades and in many cases you are getting less trades. You are also not getting more global, you were already trading with pretty much every trade partners possible.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Yea I agree with the trade with Australia, although I do think grains and raw materials for food manufacture will be something that happens. Personally I think more trade is good no matter how you look at it. A more global country is a stronger country, I doubt anyone would argue against that. Being in control of your own trade agreements has its benefits too, even if it is against the backdrop of brexit. They just need to be negotiated by people that have half a clue.
More trade yes but at what cost. If the cost is more than what you've gained it's pointless or much worse than pointless. The Uk were part of EU negotiated trade agreements, the phantom EU bureaucrat didn't agree something and then say here you are UK, this is what we've negotiated for you.

Truss tried to make this point with the Japan trade deal which the UK added a few bits on like the Cornish pasties or Stilton cheese and then she claims a victory. The fact that these are now tariff free is pointless if nobody in Japan buys them.
 

Ramshock

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The US are already the UK's biggest individual country trade partner plus they are not that interested in a trade deal. The main thing is both Biden and Trump are/were wary of China. Don't see Uk gaining much there even with a deal.

India is a minor market for the UK. Belgium sell more to India than the UK, it's peanuts like Australia. Don't see what UK have to offer to China, they can't compete with China.
China would probably like to use Johnson's freeports as a gateway to Europe. Fortunately the EU are not daft.
Ah good old Top Gear specials
 

Cheimoon

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Hello everyone! I've been reading this post for about 2 years and recently I got access to post in this forum.

I would like to thank the posters that have been willing to have the same discussions over and over again with the same posters with varying lines of argument, in order to expose the very discernible fact (not only now, but 5 years ago as well) that this was a very bad idea and that people in the UK (and some colaterals like Ireland) will suffer the huge consequences as well.

I'm not from the UK (or the EU for that matter), but I have found myself absorbed (for the lack of a better word) witnessing this extremely slow motion car crash for the last couple of years, and I still haven't processed very well how a country made a decission that is the sociopolitical/economic equivalent of deciding that, in a race against other countries, the best way to win is to keep hitting yourself in the crotch with a baseball bat while running. I understand that it's a mixture of a bunch of very ambitious people with no scruples, an increasingly corrupt and coward governing party, an increasingly inept and out of touch (while also coward) opposition party, an immensely misinformed electorate and a very vague (and also misinformed) feeling of pride and nostalgia for "the good old days" across the population. Anyway, this will be one for the ages and will probably be studied for generations to come, so we better get into it.

Maybe I sound the wrong way while writing this: obviously, the situation is terrible and the -usually poor- people is already facing the consequences. I'm sorry if that's the case, English isn't my native language and, as I said before, this is one of these situations when you just can't look away even when you want to. Anyway, the first step to recovery should be to admit the problem, and if the government isn't willing to do so then the job falls in the hands of the electorate. Will they be up to the task? How to make it work?

Sorry for the long post, I've been here a lot of time reading and learning from all of you and just wanted to say hello and thanks. I'll try to participate if I can.
To me it seems that the explanation is already there.
There is or has been a rise in nationalism. (Not only in UK, but across all of Europe). Opponents often label it as racism, but I am not sure whether I agree.

One thing that seems to be clear now (and it wasn't ten years ago) is that especially the poorer classes of society did not profit in the same way from the UK being an EU member. Also the same classes had to experience the negative effects of immigration like competing for the same jobs, appartments, public spaces, sharing the same schools etc. If you live in a nice neighbourhood in Hertfordshire you can pretty much detach your reality from these negative effects, but it's not the same for people with a lower economic mobility and strength. Probably, there has been a feeling of helplessness among a significant share of the Brexit voters (who on the basis of economic impact probably should not have voted for Brexit), so they regarded the Brexit vote as a kind of last exit possibility. Of course the campaign captured these underlying issues quite well and showed these voters a possible path. (It won't work of course, because at the end it is a problem in the internal social structure. The negative effects of Brexit might even counter any positive effects like higher paid low income jobs because prices will rise or the next Spain holiday becomes more expensive. )

Specifically in Britain, you can probably blame Blair quite a bit for this development. He was just looking at the positive effects of immigration which are undoubtedly there, but these effects are not solely positive.

And you can blame BoJo & co all you want, but we are witnessing similar approaches across Europe (Hungary, Poland, Italy, France are the obvious examples; Spain ruthlessly pushing back on illegal immigration, the CJEU declaring push-backs as legal, Denmark trying to restructure "problematic" neighbourhoods, the German left has suddenly discovered the disproportionate burden of immigration that the economically poor have to deal with.) The major difference is the anti-EU approach which was chosen in the UK. That worked in the UK because there has been an anti EU theme for many decades in the UK, which was exploited for the referendum.
Amazingly, after everything that happened with Brexit, and the economic downsides it has now clearly be shown to have, Switzerland is currently going through a similar process. Of course, they never were EU members, but they had large collection of agreements that resulted in a very profitable and practical relationship wtih the EU. (Practical, because the economies and labour markets of Switzerland's border area are deeply integrated with those of the EU regions right across those borders, and breaking that up will pose huge challenges.)

Talks have been going on for seven years to wrap that patchwork of agreements into a large and more dynamic agreement that doesn't need renewal and updating every other year, but driven by a deeply nationalist government, Switzerland has been stalling the negotiations and now has just simply walked away from them. This is the same party (SVP) that some years ago pushed for a referendum on limits (or was it an outright ban?) on foreign workers in Switzerland.

And so now, those existing agreements will slowly disappear as they expire one after the other, and Switzerland will be free! Of those pesky foreigners? Cause as I said, they were never a EU member in the first place. Nationalists eh - all only for the good of the country!
So health and, environmental reasons (among other reasons) are designed not to protect our health and environment but to go against poor countries. I am sure they used also the mad cows to revisit what was feeding to the cows also to feck the poor countries too

Your arguments are beyond ridiculous.
If you think governments and politicians across the planet don't regularly use health, safety and environmental reasons to increase taxes, rules, regulations, curbs to their freedom etc then I'm unsure how you'll be convinced. That's literally just politicians being politicians.
To maybe find some middle ground here: it is absolutely true that the EU is very protectionist about its economy, and that this is very damaging to developing economies. I was reading an article about Tunesian olives a couple of months ago, that are apparently of very high quality, but can't make their way into the EU through proper channels that would bring the right money to Tunesia, simply because the EU is protecting its own olive industry.

I can understand why countries want to protect some of their industries, especially for crucial products (like food). But on the other hand, if you want to be serious about supporting developing economies, then fairness in trade would be an excellent starting point. I do agree with @4bars, though, that environmental, health, and labour regulations need to be in place; otherwise 'fairness' just means 'race to the bottom', and that doesn't help anyone.
 

Paul the Wolf

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To be fair a sizeable proportion of people who voted against joining never shut up about it for 40 years till they managed to get their way and leave... I for one am happy to push back against the decision and Im pretty confident with demographics on our side we will be able to rejoin in some way a lot quicker than 40 years
Charles de Gaulle, he says 'Non!'