[mitchmouse]

Would be curious who we could get in midfield to be better?
I just think there's at least 7/8 players in our squad who could be better for us, first.

You get no argument from me on that - and I also agree that there aren't immediately lots of names we could replace him with (and we have to accept that we are not the draw we once were for top top players). That said, I agree with Patrick Vieira last night:
"When you look at his potential, what he can do on the field, you expect more from him. I think if he played next to Roy [Keane] he would be a different player.

"He needs somebody behind his back, to put him under pressure every day, to be really demanding on him.”

And then Keano added this:
"He can be frustrating. his is all a part of Paul’s character, which people love to see, but then I’d be looking at the goal they conceded in injury time, where he was sloppy in midfield. That’s the bit I’d be really critical about.

“It seems harsh because he’s done some brilliant stuff going forward tonight. There’s no doubting Paul’s quality, just the other side, maybe his maturity.

“We’ve mentioned all night, and United have had the same problem, can he play in a two in midfield? He probably can’t, doesn’t have the discipline.

“He was at his best in Juventus when he probably got a bit more freedom and was surrounded by more men, more characters, probably better quality players.

“But even today, he still leaves you frustrated...That’s the key, the top players manage to do it week in week out and Paul, to me, still doesn’t quite do it.”

 

[tothetop96]

I hadn’t actually rewatched this until someone else mentioned it in the other thread. It’s a poor pass from Benzema and an abysmal piece of defending by Kimpembe. How Pogba is getting the blame for this goal astounds me.

When I watched it originally I thought typical Pogba, taking his time on the ball, trying to show off and then getting tackled and diving to the ground. Having watched it again though it was way way quicker than I realised at the time. I probably felt like that because sometimes Pogba does dilly dally on the ball, so that's what I anticipated and it coloured my perception of what was actually happening. Just goes to show how unreliable your memory and first impressions of things are and how bias can easily affect the way you perceive things.

But in criticism of Pogba; he still definitely did not need to fall over. He anticipates the contact and kind of slightly jumps/falls into the challenge and then falls to the ground in the hope the ref gives the foul. I doubt he made a conscious decision to do it as some/a lot of soccer players are so used to and possibly trained in falling over that it's probably just an automatic reaction. I suppose the likes of Keane would look at that and be annoyed, because there is no way Roy Keane would fall over after a tackle like that, he'd take the hit and be on his feet and tracking back straight away. If Pogba had done that he would have helped Kanté, who himself didn't defend very well, and that goal probably wouldn't have happened.

It's a criticism of some modern footballers more than anything. A tackle like that doesn't knock you over, you decide to get knocked over. It really is frustrating to see stuff like that, anticipating challenges and going down gambling on getting a free instead of ensuring you're goal side and in place to defend. I don't know how other people see a challenge like that and would be interested to see how people who exclusively watch soccer feel about the way Pogba went down there. Me and all my friends play and watch Gaelic football where diving/going down soft hasn't widely permeated the game yet (it's definitely starting at the highest level though) and it can be frustrating/laughable seeing big men go down from minimal-medium amounts of contact, especially when they lose the ball in a vulnerable situation.

To sum, he's not as at much fault for it as some are making out, but he definitely should have defended better/defended at all.

 

[Frank White]

The way Neville and Keane went after him was quite sad, I know that they talk about what they’re told to but that was uncalled for. Pogba was excellent going forward, opening spaces up with driving runs and beautiful passes and scored a top drawer goal. Yet they choose to highlight his defensive drawbacks. The French defence who were shocking along with golden boys Kante and Mbappe got a pass. They’re going beyond analysing his performances, they dissect his whole character because he likes to colour his hair and dance. Feels a bit personal with Pogba.

What did they say that was so out of pocket? Before Keane started analysing him he prefaced it with saying that it's harsh to do so because of how good he was in the game going forward and his quality. Suppose it depends on where you land on the 3rd goal they conceded, personally don't think it's that harsh to expect a player of his quality to retain/recycle the ball in that position better than what he did. Now was it his fault they conceded? imo no but i can see why some people see it differently.

 

[Squaaaad]

Certain people in this thread are being ridiculous with their Pogba hate. I can only hope that one day you guys will find peace because the amount of nit-picking I'm seeing to discredit a great performance from him last night is embarrassing. Like do you guys even enjoy football ???

 

[mitchmouse]

What did they say that was so out of pocket? Before Keane started analysing him he prefaced it with saying that it's harsh to do so because of how good he was in the game going forward and his quality. Suppose it depends on where you land on the 3rd goal they conceded, personally don't think it's that harsh to expect a player of his quality to retain/recycle the ball in that position better than what he did. Now was it his fault they conceded? imo no but i can see why some people see it differently.

Not directly to do with the Swiss goal, but far too often for my liking, Pogba gets caught in possession, tries to ride one tackle too many or just gives it away cheaply. I'm no fan of ITV, but I presume Keano and Nev were asked to comment because of the United link. There's not much point of asking a question where you get a dull answer (although that happens too). As to whether others were also to blame is a fair question too... but I don't think PP does himself any favours with his laconic look which can be mistaken for disinterest

 

[Borys]

The way Neville and Keane went after him was quite sad, I know that they talk about what they’re told to but that was uncalled for. Pogba was excellent going forward, opening spaces up with driving runs and beautiful passes and scored a top drawer goal. Yet they choose to highlight his defensive drawbacks. The French defence who were shocking along with golden boys Kante and Mbappe got a pass. They’re going beyond analysing his performances, they dissect his whole character because he likes to colour his hair and dance. Feels a bit personal with Pogba.

Switzerland run freely through France midfield multiple times, Pogba lost the ball that led to equalizer in 90', but that should be ignored because he was so good offensively?

He had a fantastic game as an attacking midfielder, unfortunately he was a central midfielder so his defensive contribution should be judged as well.

His off the ball performance was just the same level as when he plays for United.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I liked Vieira’s comment that Pogba would be a better player with a character like Keano on the pitch, bollocking him after every careless moment. A little bit old man screaming at clouds but makes sense to me.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Honestly this is such nonsense.

People really think the Premier League is an entirely different sport.

He's had great performances in the Premier League too.

Every single player in football history does better when they have more time on the ball. This isn't exclusive to Pogba.

Exactly. “BUT Can (foreign player name ) do it in an intensive league with no time on the ball” has replaced the vs Stoke on a Wednesday rubbish

 

[villain]

You get no argument from me on that - and I also agree that there aren't immediately lots of names we could replace him with (and we have to accept that we are not the draw we once were for top top players). That said, I agree with Patrick Vieira last night:
"When you look at his potential, what he can do on the field, you expect more from him. I think if he played next to Roy [Keane] he would be a different player.

"He needs somebody behind his back, to put him under pressure every day, to be really demanding on him.”

And then Keano added this:
"He can be frustrating. his is all a part of Paul’s character, which people love to see, but then I’d be looking at the goal they conceded in injury time, where he was sloppy in midfield. That’s the bit I’d be really critical about.

“It seems harsh because he’s done some brilliant stuff going forward tonight. There’s no doubting Paul’s quality, just the other side, maybe his maturity.

“We’ve mentioned all night, and United have had the same problem, can he play in a two in midfield? He probably can’t, doesn’t have the discipline.

“He was at his best in Juventus when he probably got a bit more freedom and was surrounded by more men, more characters, probably better quality players.

“But even today, he still leaves you frustrated...That’s the key, the top players manage to do it week in week out and Paul, to me, still doesn’t quite do it.”

For me, I think part of the problem with Pogba in a United shirt is that he's a standout player, everyone knows his quality and ability and they target him as a result, which is natural. It's only really him and Bruno who have that affect. They are our danger men, and teams know that if they give Pogba and/or Bruno a tough game, they can get a result against us especially since they occupy similar areas on the pitch.

This is part of what made Fergie's United teams so difficult to stop, it wasn't just Scholes pulling strings; Neville could whip a cross in, Evra could play 1-2's and provide an overlap, Giggs had pace to run at you all game, Cole & Yorke are making runs and basically toying with the defence, RvN only needed to sniff the goal to score, you're afraid to tackle anywhere near the penalty box because Beckham will likely slot it in the top corner, never mind his corner's & crosses. Rooney, Ronaldo, Nani, are relentless - the list goes on & on across every era he had with us.
You couldn't pick out 1 or 2 players to target because there were at least 1 or 2 others who could still punish you, or capitalise on the space that the opposition would leave open. We're lacking that level of threat in the squad severely, and have been for almost a decade now.

When (fingers crossed) we add in the likes of Sancho, you now have 3 star players in different areas of the pitch and at that point you can't expect to target 3 key men all game and not tire or make mistakes - this opens up spaces for us to create chances, and the likes of Rashford/Greenwood/Cavani should benefit from this. I still think our midfield is severely lacking in quality outside of Pogba & Bruno, and we're liable to fail against the bigger teams until we fix that.

The other part is the media and their need to create ABU clicks to churn revenue, even if Pogba leaves they'll find a next target and our fans will turn on him too.

 

[roonster09]

I liked Vieira’s comment that Pogba would be a better player with a character like Keano on the pitch, bollocking him after every careless moment. A little bit old man screaming at clouds but makes sense to me.

Yeah that's a good point, playing alongside a player who expects quality all the time. Gary Neville said how Keane used to lose his shit even when the pass was completed but the receiver had to break the stride to receive the pass.

Someone like Keane to set the expectations in the training and on the pitch would help our team, not just Pogba.

 

[thepolice123]

You always see the usual trite here.

Positionally undisciplined

Not tracking back

Too casual on the ball

PL's pace of football is too fast for him

Makes you wonder do people here actually watch him play.

 

[thepolice123]

Honestly this is such nonsense.

People really think the Premier League is an entirely different sport.

He's had great performances in the Premier League too.

Every single player in football history does better when they have more time on the ball. This isn't exclusive to Pogba.

After nearly two decades you still have people thinking that PL is the best thing since sliced bread.

And you wonder why we so shite at International football.

 

[rotherham_red]

But Vieira has surely watched Pogba for years so would know what his strength and weaknesses are plus he succeeded in the world cup playing the same role. I feel its because France did not win. @Rozay pointed out that the narrative on Pogba is dependent on whether his side wins or loses. they win and he "played solid, controlled the game, dominated, did his job, professional performance etc" they lose and its "quiet game, disappointment," or his mistakes are highlighted etc

Bro, what can I say, Neville and Keane have been watching him for 5, going on 6 years now, week in and week out - which has literally been their jobs, and they arguably don't have a clue as to who or what he is as a player either.

Is it really that much of a surprise if Patrick Vieira, who has been managing NYCFC and Nice during the time Pogba has been at the club, doesn't know too much about him as a player either?

Also Pogba didn't really play in that pivot role alone, or even solely with Kante, he had the running power of Matuidi covering him as well. There's a pretty big distinction there, compared to what he had with the shall we say, inconsistent, defensive application of Rabiot last night...

 

[Borys]

For me, I think part of the problem with Pogba in a United shirt is that he's a standout player, everyone knows his quality and ability and they target him as a result, which is natural. It's only really him and Bruno who have that affect. They are our danger men, and teams know that if they give Pogba and/or Bruno a tough game, they can get a result against us especially since they occupy similar areas on the pitch.

This is part of what made Fergie's United teams so difficult to stop, it wasn't just Scholes pulling strings; Neville could whip a cross in, Evra could play 1-2's and provide an overlap, Giggs had pace to run at you all game, Cole & Yorke are making runs and basically toying with the defence, RvN only needed to sniff the goal to score, you're afraid to tackle anywhere near the penalty box because Beckham will likely slot it in the top corner, never mind his corner's & crosses. Rooney, Ronaldo, Nani, are relentless - the list goes on & on across every era he had with us.
You couldn't pick out 1 or 2 players to target because there were at least 1 or 2 others who could still punish you, or capitalise on the space that the opposition would leave open. We're lacking that level of threat in the squad severely, and have been for almost a decade now.

When (fingers crossed) we add in the likes of Sancho, you now have 3 star players in different areas of the pitch and at that point you can't expect to target 3 key men all game and not tire or make mistakes - this opens up spaces for us to create chances, and the likes of Rashford/Greenwood/Cavani should benefit from this. I still think our midfield is severely lacking in quality outside of Pogba & Bruno, and we're liable to fail against the bigger teams until we fix that.

The other part is the media and their need to create ABU clicks to churn revenue, even if Pogba leaves they'll find a next target and our fans will turn on him too.

I have a similar feeling about current United team to be honest. Goals coming from Bruno, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, offensive contribution from Shaw, Wan Bissaka, McTominay etc. Only Fred is not much of a threat in this team.
Biggest question mark on midfield quality, but Pogba for sure isn't the answer there.

Honestly this is such nonsense.

People really think the Premier League is an entirely different sport.

He's had great performances in the Premier League too.

Every single player in football history does better when they have more time on the ball. This isn't exclusive to Pogba.

That is obviously true, however the difference is if you give more time on the ball to Fred he's going to do feck all. When Pogba gets more time, he'll most likely do something brilliant.
Pogba has world class potential, but he's not getting so much time on the ball outside of NT football. This is why I don't rate him that high. I don't care much about his excellent performances for France.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

What did they say that was so out of pocket? Before Keane started analysing him he prefaced it with saying that it's harsh to do so because of how good he was in the game going forward and his quality. Suppose it depends on where you land on the 3rd goal they conceded, personally don't think it's that harsh to expect a player of his quality to retain/recycle the ball in that position better than what he did. Now was it his fault they conceded? imo no but i can see why some people see it differently.

The problem that everyone has is that Pogba was the clear best player on the pitch all night (and tourney) and yet he’s the talking point after France failed to win. I don’t give a shit if you preface it with “oh he had some great moments”, these pundits act like they’ve never given a fecking ball away in a bad spot under some pressure. They could have gone after Deschamps failings tactically, or Lenglet and Kimpembe playing abysmal, or the Mbappe horrorshow in front of goal, or anything else.

Instead they choose to, yet again, single out probably the player of the tourney for France for a single giveaway. I mean my god imagine if Bruno got slated the same way with the amount of times he gets caught on the ball in bad spots or has stupid giveaways (hint:it’s a lot more than Pogba). Point being unless your some passive tempo setter that only looks to play it safe, you’ll have some bad giveaways. Especially when you’re Pogba as probably the best long passer in the world and your teams chances are largely dependent on your ability to jump start counters from deep.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Ok cool. Now do trophies.

Nonsense argument and you know it. Really clutching at straws now aren't you. Teams win trophies not players.

 

[villain]

I have a similar feeling about current United team to be honest. Goals coming from Bruno, Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, offensive contribution from Shaw, Wan Bissaka, McTominay etc. Only Fred is not much of a threat in this team.
Biggest question mark on midfield quality, but Pogba for sure isn't the answer there.

I'd disagree - Greenwood & Rashford certainly have the capability to produce a moment of magic, but are they danger men that the other team seek to shut down? No, I don't think so.
I think a team would look to target Bruno & Pogba. When Pogba was out injured that's what they did, doubled up on Bruno because McFred pose no threat, and Rashford, Cavani, Greenwood etc were scraping the barrel to create chances - this coincided with us struggling to score and win games. When Pogba returned, they couldn't double up on Bruno because of Pogba's presence - this led to Bruno getting more space, and it's no surprise to me that Cavani, Greenwood, AWB found their best form in the second half of the season when Pogba returned too. Opposition teams had to change their strategy for us. Without him in our squad, it's very easy to shut us down, without Bruno the same thing would happen.

 

[Jeppers7]

Would these be the same kind of very low IQ people that think trophies won by teams are a good way to judge individual players?

Like Carrick?

 

[thepolice123]

Bro, what can I say, Neville and Keane have been watching him for 5, going on 6 years now, week in and week out - which has literally been their jobs, and they arguably don't have a clue as to who or what he is as a player either.

Is it really that much of a surprise if Patrick Vieira, who has been managing NYCFC and Nice during the time Pogba has been at the club, doesn't know too much about him as a player either?

Also Pogba didn't really play in that pivot role alone, or even solely with Kante, he had the running power of Matuidi covering him as well. There's a pretty big distinction there, compared to what he had with the shall we say, inconsistent, defensive application of Rabiot last night...

From what I have read, most of the French legends know clearly what are Pogba's limitations and type of environment to bring the best out of him. I think Desailly said it best when he said that Pogba needs to play in a team that is already good and pushing for greatness. He is not the type of player you typically would rely on to fix a team that is poorly functioned.

I think the likes of Desailly, Vieira, Henry and Evra have been pretty consistent in what they have been saying. Keane and Neville have been banging on the same drum for ages.

 

[Shimo]

Neville is just a failed manager and day by day is becoming an angry man and terrible pundit trying to be all high and mighty about anything surrounding United.

Keane and Viera - no one is really going to be paying much attention if they were talking about Kimbempe or any of the other French players. They get paid to keep the audience engaged and focusing on Pogba allows for them to do that even though in the grand scheme he was exceptional on the night and though the tournament.

As for him playing for United, I don't think it's a matter of having a Kante next to him, personally think Fred can do as close a job as Kante does next to him but, difference is that we need a CB next to Maguire so the backline can push up 5-10 yards and be confident that you are not going to be beat for speed. Couple that with the pace of Rashford/Sancho/Greenwood and hold up play of Cavani, he will be a absolute force in midfield. Something he was already for a the second half of last season.

 

[northernfan]

I don't think there is anything new to say on Pagba's play. He is the same player he was 5 years ago. Gifted on the ball, great passer and a nice shot from long range. However, sloppy at times, slow to get back when needed and the 90 minute effort doesn't exist. All things being what they are, a good player. Not a great player worth the coin Man paid for him or what he wants in wages going forward. For that money, you HAVE to do it on both ends of the pitch.

 

[432JuanMata]

I don't think there is anything new to say on Pagba's play. He is the same player he was 5 years ago. Gifted on the ball, great passer and a nice shot from long range. However, sloppy at times, slow to get back when needed and the 90 minute effort doesn't exist. All things being what they are, a good player. Not a great player worth the coin Man paid for him or what he wants in wages going forward. For that money, you HAVE to do it on both ends of the pitch.

While he has his down sides I feel this is harsh he was excellent last night and this whole tournament. Even his ball to Mbappe in ET with Mbappe blowing it. Pogba didn’t deserve to go out and was on for player of the tournament. He is not perfect but he is class above. Some of his passes have been fantastic mainly to Mbappe as he is always running in behind

 

[vanrooney]

pogba was always top when fit. the hate for him is unjustified and comes mainly from a media agenda against him as it sells papers. he will be a main part of the puzzle if we want to win something in the next years. really hope he stays

 

[eire-red]

He is a great player, played well over all and scored a great goal, but he has aspects of his game he must improve if he wants to play as a cm and not a cam.

B2B is the new meta in midfield. It has been a talkingpoint the last year or two. So that is straight up wrong.

He's not a CM though is he? That's the problem, it's like criticising Kante for not contributing in attack. I don't understand why people slam him for things like his lack of defensive contribution.

Deschamps knows full well if he plays Pogba in a midfield two that it's likely that he'll get caught in possession a couple times and not give the defensive cover a trio would. But when you play as many defence splitting passes, and knock one in top bin from 30 yards, you could say it justifies the risk.

I can't think of any all round world class B2B midfielders at the moment. The top midfielders at the moment seem to all be specialists?

 

[Sylar]

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Again. Let the discussion always continue with context.




Talk me through this mistake and how he held the ball for too long please. The video is there.

Yeah you're right. He didn't hold on too long. He just wasn't aware of what was around him

Watching it yesterday or felt like it but it's still a mistake

 

[Jeppers7]

Sterling had a good game today, but losing the ball in a dangerous area could’ve cost England the win….said no one today

 

[Marwood]

Sterling had a good game today, but losing the ball in a dangerous area could’ve cost England the win….said no one today

Honestly what do you think the reaction would have been had that gone in and England got knocked out? You think Sterling would have been spared?

It didn't go in and England just beat Germany.

I'll go with logic and say that's why he escapes criticism and Pogba didn't.

Rather than believing there's a worldwide conspiracy to bring down Paul Pogba.

 

[Idxomer]

Honestly what do you think the reaction would have been had that gone in and England got knocked out? You think Sterling would have been spared?

It didn't go in and England just beat Germany.

I'll go with logic and say that's why he escapes criticism and Pogba didn't.

Rather than believing there's a worldwide conspiracy to bring down Paul Pogba.

Sterling lost the ball in a more dangerous position with no pressure on him and didn't get punished, it's about luck.

 

[Jeppers7]

Sterling lost the ball in a more dangerous position with no pressure on him and didn't get punished, it's about luck.

Yep….and also the fact that with Pogba everybody talks about it regardless of whether it ends up in a goal or not, regardless of his performance also.

 

[Marwood]

Sterling lost the ball in a more dangerous position with no pressure on him and didn't get punished, it's about luck.

Totally agree it's about luck but I think you're missing Jeppers point.

He believes Pogba is the only player on the planet who would be criticised in such a situation.

My point is had that gone in and England lost, Sterling would also have been roasted.

But like you say, lady luck made the difference. Not some mass conspiracy against Pogba.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I really should have booked tomorrow off work.

Gassed.

 

[lost7]

Some of you should really watch Modric, Kroos, De Bruyne etc more. The so called best midfielders in the world did not put a single performance even remotely close to what Pogba did yesterday during the whole tournament, but yeah sure Pogba can't play in midfield

 

[Jippy]

Sterling had a good game today, but losing the ball in a dangerous area could’ve cost England the win….said no one today

It was in the opponent's half so the goal wouldn't have been his fault

 

[arthurka]

Sterling lost the ball in a more dangerous position with no pressure on him and didn't get punished, it's about luck.

He does this a lot to be fair.

 

[Stacks]

Some of you should really watch Modric, Kroos, De Bruyne etc more. The so called best midfielders in the world did not put a single performance even remotely close to what Pogba did yesterday during the whole tournament, but yeah sure Pogba can't play in midfield

In their defence who gives a feck what you do in a 4 tournament comp when you supposed to play 50 games for your club often at a different tempo to this tournament

 

[clarkydaz]

Yeah that's a good point, playing alongside a player who expects quality all the time. Gary Neville said how Keane used to lose his shit even when the pass was completed but the receiver had to break the stride to receive the pass.

Someone like Keane to set the expectations in the training and on the pitch would help our team, not just Pogba.

Didnt we have an old school manager giving him tough love? didnt work out well

 

[roonster09]

Didnt we have an old school manager giving him tough love? didnt work out well

No, we had a toxic cnut who wanted a quick payout and created a toxic atmosphere at the club,. someone who threw everyone under the bus and took 0 responsibilities. Yeah not the same thing as players like Keane setting standards.

 

[JPRouve]

I liked Vieira’s comment that Pogba would be a better player with a character like Keano on the pitch, bollocking him after every careless moment. A little bit old man screaming at clouds but makes sense to me.

For me it would be more about his influence on the training pitch, the one thing I absolutely dislike about Pogba's game is when he starts playing incredibly soft passes. I remember a coach saying that a pass was like sending a message, it needed to be given with pace, Keane would often rifle the ball into his teammates feet.

 

[bosnian_red]

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Pogba had a great game and all, but yeah let's be honest, put him in a 2 even next to Kante, and he's a liability defensively even when he has a great game offensively. He needs to be in a 3 with 2 more defense minded midfielders. That's it. He doesn't know how to defend, he's just not that type of player so people need to stop putting him in those situations where his defensive lapses cost the team.

 

[el3mel]

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Pogba had a great game and all, but yeah let's be honest, put him in a 2 even next to Kante, and he's a liability defensively even when he has a great game offensively. He needs to be in a 3 with 2 more defense minded midfielders. That's it. He doesn't know how to defend, he's just not that type of player so people need to stop putting him in those situations where his defensive lapses cost the team.

Seems like a pretty toxic dressing room.

Anyway, unfortunately for Pogba in modern football you can't just be great with the ball in your feet and shit off it especially if you are a CM. Defensive work and off ball movements have to be part of your job. He's approaching 29 and still doesn't seem to understand that.